Simple church is not simple, it is difficult
I want to talk about my experience in simple church.
After starting in 2002 with 5 people in 3 years we were grown up to 11 adult people an two kids. We tried to live the values of a simple church what means for us: Jesus in our midst, the holy spirit has already prepared every thing when we come together, we want to live a strong coummunity life and take our emphasis on decipleship and evangelisation. So I can say we (I) tried our best out of what we have learned. In the time of developement we had around 25 % new believers, the other christians came from other churches.
After 4 strong years we came in a crisis about our vision - we had many controverse discussions about how to go on - I missed the reaching out to nonbeleivers. I must say, we had 5- 6 people with strong leadeship tendences. After one year struggeling and fighting, the youngest under us find out a conlcusion, everybody was able to agree: To split in three groups.
It was not easy for me, because I felt that we missed the point the holy spirit wanted to teach us about dicipleship, ministry und reproducing housechurches. But I accept it and thought may be, this is the right time for multiplikation in such a way, if it is not other possiple.
For a view month we met regularly once a month in a kind of network celebration. But it ended slowly, people were spread out and most of them entered other housechurches - no growths came.
Now, two 2 years later I feel, the problem was, that most of our people had kept their own valuesystem, influenced by the church there have been before. I feel know, better to start a new church with fresh saved people not from other churches, were we cant develop a own new foundation.
What do you think about it.
Ric
After starting in 2002 with 5 people in 3 years we were grown up to 11 adult people an two kids. We tried to live the values of a simple church what means for us: Jesus in our midst, the holy spirit has already prepared every thing when we come together, we want to live a strong coummunity life and take our emphasis on decipleship and evangelisation. So I can say we (I) tried our best out of what we have learned. In the time of developement we had around 25 % new believers, the other christians came from other churches.
After 4 strong years we came in a crisis about our vision - we had many controverse discussions about how to go on - I missed the reaching out to nonbeleivers. I must say, we had 5- 6 people with strong leadeship tendences. After one year struggeling and fighting, the youngest under us find out a conlcusion, everybody was able to agree: To split in three groups.
It was not easy for me, because I felt that we missed the point the holy spirit wanted to teach us about dicipleship, ministry und reproducing housechurches. But I accept it and thought may be, this is the right time for multiplikation in such a way, if it is not other possiple.
For a view month we met regularly once a month in a kind of network celebration. But it ended slowly, people were spread out and most of them entered other housechurches - no growths came.
Now, two 2 years later I feel, the problem was, that most of our people had kept their own valuesystem, influenced by the church there have been before. I feel know, better to start a new church with fresh saved people not from other churches, were we cant develop a own new foundation.
What do you think about it.
Ric
Views: 186
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by JaJireh on -
Ric, I have a Catholic friend who states this is her very reason for discounting a "home church" ~ they, in her opinion, hold no longevity. They can't last too long before they copy the systematic pattern of the institution they left; or they implode upon one another, such as you have described. I assert with her that her concept is a stereotype ~ it happens, but there are plenty of healthy churches out there.
I will say from my point of view that the number one priority of an organic group is to hold Jesus Christ as the Head. Colosians speaks of this:
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Colossians 2:18-19
When you state "most of our people have kept their own values system" I believe you have stated correctly. As the Lord is allowed to strip us of our ideals and encourages us to lay down the traditions of men, humility is a MUST.
I doubt anyone will be able to unravel the problem you've encountered for you on an online forum board . . .but I do want to encourage you, Ric. Yes, simple church takes an incredible amount of personal relational investment. Yes, it can get messy. But then, Jesus was willing to touch the leper, wasn't He? Healthy groups are out there. Healthy groups CAN be developed. Refresh yourself in the Lord, and ask him to guide and direct your footsteps as you move forward seeking His Kingdom, and the edification of His Body.
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on -
I see simple church as very simple -- follow Him.
But, what's simple isn't always easy.
Following rules is easy.
Being in a Relationship (with Him and with others), isn't easy -- it's challenging, messy, unpredictable, painful, transformational, wrenching, and oh-so rewarding... but it's not easy.
(i.e., the choice between taking the blue pill, and taking the red pill...!)
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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Oooooooh, Chris -- Amen and amen!
I've experienced precisely what you're describing ... yeah, I'm not the me of 5 years ago, and likely am not who I'll be in 5 years...! I HOPE not! Moving from "seeing through dim glass, darkly" into All Truth implies a journey, a process, a transformation. We're to follow Him, picking up the Truth-nuggets He gives us along the way, and to resist running off to set up camp in a parking lot, venerating and defending that Truth-nugget. Meanwhile, Jesus is up the road, waiting for us to follow Him...
We're to collect the Truth-nuggets along the way, pondering them in our hearts, and trusting Him who IS All Truth, to continue to reveal Himself to us.
And yeah, along the way, a lot of human-devised doctrines will fall off ... as they should. Even when (& it usually is) painful.
LOVE what you're sharing, Chris!!!
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
Chris & Vina Pridham said:Richard,
You have expressed the experience of many of those have ventured outside of the institutional church setting. The Foundation - To say that the foundation is Jesus Christ and Christ always gets everybody to say Amen! But few ever practice it. It would be more accurate to say that the "foundation" of many simple church groups is "what they believe about Jesus Christ and his church." Anybody who has walked with the Lord for a number of years realizes that our belief's change. I know that I don't agree with myself of 10 years ago. Until a people can learn to hear His voice both individually and corporately then follow that voice together they will never grow into the head. We can be people who allow the scriptures to point us to Christ - and confirm what we corporately hear. Our understanding and shifting beliefs about the scriptures should not take the place of the living voice within the many membered body of Jesus Christ. If Christ is the foundation we build upon the Rock - If Belief's about Christ is our foundation we are building on small particles of the rock called sand - as our beliefs change the sand shifts and the building falls apart.
The Apostles were sent by the Lord after being brothers who were built on the Rock (i.e. listening and following Jesus) - They take their experience of being built together with others on the Rock and help believers to be able to listen for and hear the voice of Jesus. They encourage people to follow (not their teachings about this or that) simply the voice of the Lord. This is a foundation that can stand the test of a life time and into eternity.
A belief system will not stand when greater revelation comes.
A foundation built on tradition will last many life times but will be meaningless in eternity.
I have had experience in all three (not to say that my feet are totally on the Rock) But I like the desire and effort of a people trying to stand on the rock far more than the sand or tradition. (Although tradition is the easiest and requires the least effort)
Chris
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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God is so lavish...!
I was elsewhere (another forum), and someone shared a verse that's so very apropos to what Chris was saying here, and to which I was agreeing. I love how God is consistent -- how the Spirit-to-spirit conversations find connections with what's been written by ancient followers...!
Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn,
That shines brighter and brighter until the full day.
Yes, that resonates deep within me...
Shalom, Dena
Dena Brehm said:Oooooooh, Chris -- Amen and amen!
I've experienced precisely what you're describing ... yeah, I'm not the me of 5 years ago, and likely am not who I'll be in 5 years...! I HOPE not! Moving from "seeing through dim glass, darkly" into All Truth implies a journey, a process, a transformation. We're to follow Him, picking up the Truth-nuggets He gives us along the way, and to resist running off to set up camp in a parking lot, venerating and defending that Truth-nugget. Meanwhile, Jesus is up the road, waiting for us to follow Him...
We're to collect the Truth-nuggets along the way, pondering them in our hearts, and trusting Him who IS All Truth, to continue to reveal Himself to us.
And yeah, along the way, a lot of human-devised doctrines will fall off ... as they should. Even when (& it usually is) painful.
LOVE what you're sharing, Chris!!!
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
Chris & Vina Pridham said:Richard,
You have expressed the experience of many of those have ventured outside of the institutional church setting. The Foundation - To say that the foundation is Jesus Christ and Christ always gets everybody to say Amen! But few ever practice it. It would be more accurate to say that the "foundation" of many simple church groups is "what they believe about Jesus Christ and his church." Anybody who has walked with the Lord for a number of years realizes that our belief's change. I know that I don't agree with myself of 10 years ago. Until a people can learn to hear His voice both individually and corporately then follow that voice together they will never grow into the head. We can be people who allow the scriptures to point us to Christ - and confirm what we corporately hear. Our understanding and shifting beliefs about the scriptures should not take the place of the living voice within the many membered body of Jesus Christ. If Christ is the foundation we build upon the Rock - If Belief's about Christ is our foundation we are building on small particles of the rock called sand - as our beliefs change the sand shifts and the building falls apart.
The Apostles were sent by the Lord after being brothers who were built on the Rock (i.e. listening and following Jesus) - They take their experience of being built together with others on the Rock and help believers to be able to listen for and hear the voice of Jesus. They encourage people to follow (not their teachings about this or that) simply the voice of the Lord. This is a foundation that can stand the test of a life time and into eternity.
A belief system will not stand when greater revelation comes.
A foundation built on tradition will last many life times but will be meaningless in eternity.
I have had experience in all three (not to say that my feet are totally on the Rock) But I like the desire and effort of a people trying to stand on the rock far more than the sand or tradition. (Although tradition is the easiest and requires the least effort)
Chris
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Permalink Reply by Steve Queen on -
Richard, we started on the house church path in May 2008 with friends who had a shared IC background. They have come to see all of us as ministers, to a degree. I've found that institutional thinking dies a hard death... that thinking lingers ... often in the background.
Candidly, I am eager to work with my friends to meet with their non-christian friends and see if the Lord brings some into his kingdom and they start living life together without years of IC baggage to unload. That is very exciting.
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Permalink Reply by Richard on -
Hi Rick,
what you said, I want to encourage you - do it man. Its better than try to start a church with "transfer- christians", I mean with dissapointed and frustrated christians coming from IC. These people need a special nurturing and healing from their wounds - so its better for them to be put first under quarantine til they are free from the bad influenca. These groups are not churches.
I pray that God gives grace for us as "simple churches" to become a missionary movement.
Is this what you meant, when you said you have a different opinion about somple chruches?
ric
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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"Bad influenca"! I love it! LOL!
Yeah, that's some dreaded and infectious disease!
I see it as we all need a time in the wilderness, to UNlearn, before we RElearn.
It's painful, and no one seems to do it voluntarily -- and far too many folks merely plunge from a bitter IC experience (or even a placid IC experience), straight into living rooms, and end up with "Honey, I shrunk the church."
Same ol', same ol'.
Maybe if we didn't think of it as 'church' but just "hey, let's get together and share whatever God's been showing each of us, and see what He wants us to see, together!"
I mean, we are Church, no matter what we're doing ...
Just some thoughts, at this juncture of the journey...
Shalom, Dena
Richard said:Hi Rick,
what you said, I want to encourage you - do it man. Its better than try to start a church with "transfer- christians", I mean with dissapointed and frustrated christians coming from IC. These people need a special nurturing and healing from their wounds - so its better for them to be put first under quarantine til they are free from the bad influenca. These groups are not churches.
I pray that God gives grace for us as "simple churches" to become a missionary movement.
Is this what you meant, when you said you have a different opinion about somple chruches?
ric
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Permalink Reply by Richard on
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Yes Rick,
I talk to you - also the original posting i have done to speak to you. But I think it doesn´t matter and it is interesting, if other people give their comment here.
I don´t like the double funtktion here, that at one side you post for all, at the other side you can give a personal comment to a single person- it is something confusing espeacially if english is not your motherlanguage.
ric
Rick Knock said:Hi Richard,
Are you talking to me or someone else? (I'm asking because I haven't posted in this thread yet, and don't want to interrupt.) If to me I'll talk, otherwise I'll get out of the way so I don't interrupt another conversation!
God Bless!
Rick
Richard said:Hi Rick,
what you said, I want to encourage you - do it man. Its better than try to start a church with "transfer- christians", I mean with dissapointed and frustrated christians coming from IC. These people need a special nurturing and healing from their wounds - so its better for them to be put first under quarantine til they are free from the bad influenca. These groups are not churches.
I pray that God gives grace for us as "simple churches" to become a missionary movement.
Is this what you meant, when you said you have a different opinion about somple chruches?
ric
and look at that long tail coming by this because your first posting is repeated.
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Permalink Reply by Galen & Jennifer CURRAH on -
Ric,
Your message rings true. Thanks for your candid honesty. My experience has been similar.
Today, I believe that it takes more preparation to have a spontaneous body event that it does to "pastor" a traditional church with services. One can actually make a church service happen with no prayer beforehand, during or following ! Just do what you did last week, and the same week last year.
However, simple church body life happens supernaturally as someone or more intercedes in advance for everyone who will be present, known or yet to be so. The participants must remain attentive to what the Spirit is saying in their spirit and through them to the body, as the others listen and apply.
Even preparing Bible messages is harder in simple churches. As clerics, we were able to announce a series of sermons, read some, sketch up preaching outlines, and illustrate with a few anecdotes and stories. In a simple church, where we remain attentive to each one's growth and needs, we reflect, spend time searching the Scriptures, and seek Bible texts that deal exactly with the folk's behavioural and faith needs.
It ain't simple, just better.
Galen
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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Ahhhh, Richard, please forgive me for misunderstanding your words "bad influenca"... I didn't yet know that English isnt't your native language (you were so articulate!), and I thought you making a play on words -- I'm not sure whether you were, or if it was unintentional.
I found it funny to link influenca with influenza ... and what that was saying about what we've left behind.
So, if I misunderstood, I'm so sorry -- I wouldn't dream of ridiculing your writing!
(You're from Germany? I lived in Stuttgart for 3 years, before I was married ... I loved living in Germany!)
Shalom, Dena
Dena Brehm said:"Bad influenca"! I love it! LOL!
Yeah, that's some dreaded and infectious disease!
I see it as we all need a time in the wilderness, to UNlearn, before we RElearn.
It's painful, and no one seems to do it voluntarily -- and far too many folks merely plunge from a bitter IC experience (or even a placid IC experience), straight into living rooms, and end up with "Honey, I shrunk the church."
Same ol', same ol'.
Maybe if we didn't think of it as 'church' but just "hey, let's get together and share whatever God's been showing each of us, and see what He wants us to see, together!"
I mean, we are Church, no matter what we're doing ...
Just some thoughts, at this juncture of the journey...
Shalom, Dena
Richard said:Hi Rick,
what you said, I want to encourage you - do it man. Its better than try to start a church with "transfer- christians", I mean with dissapointed and frustrated christians coming from IC. These people need a special nurturing and healing from their wounds - so its better for them to be put first under quarantine til they are free from the bad influenca. These groups are not churches.
I pray that God gives grace for us as "simple churches" to become a missionary movement.
Is this what you meant, when you said you have a different opinion about somple chruches?
ric
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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Hi Galen -
I haven't met you yet ... so I've got nothing to go on but what you've written here. I have a question for you, based on what you wrote here:
Even preparing Bible messages is harder in simple churches. As clerics, we were able to announce a series of sermons, read some, sketch up preaching outlines, and illustrate with a few anecdotes and stories. In a simple church, where we remain attentive to each one's growth and needs, we reflect, spend time searching the Scriptures, and seek Bible texts that deal exactly with the folk's behavioural and faith needs.
I understand where you're coming from -- my husband went to seminary, was ordained, and then served as clergy for about 10 years, including preparing and delivering sermons (yeah, I spent my time being sermon-fodder...!). So, I understand what goes into preparing the sermons for a traditional church.
In the next part, you compred it to how we do this (preparing teachings?) in a simple church format. Are you saying that one of you needs to do this, or that all of us need to do this?
I guess I'm seeing how it takes place organically ... as each one lives out their relationship with God, reading as He leads (whether in Scripture or otherwise), living as He leads, that He connects the dots for us, so that each one has something for someone else, and can share that thing (a dream, a realization, an understanding from Scripture, an experience, etc.). I see less "I must search the Bible to find something to say to that person", and more, "Lord, my brother/sister is in need -- thank You that You will use the rest of us in the Body to encourage them .. please help us to see how to best cooperate with Your plan for them." I sense something more along the lines of 'trying to make something happen," rather than trusting God to cause something to happen. But -- I could've totally misunderstood you here!
Or, perhaps it's a matter of personality differences...? That some of us are more systematic and methodical, while others are more spontaneous and serendipitous? Just wondering, and thinking aloud here.
Shalom, Dena
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Permalink Reply by Richard on
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Hello Dena,
yes I am from Germany (near Düsseldorf) - may be you didn`t missunderstood me. With bad influenca I mean. People from traditional churches, beeing longer time christians, when they are in a simple chruch they still have a value system in their heard what is aginst simple chruch values.
This other valuesystem, together with wounds and bitterness is like a bad virus what attacs the immunsystem of simple church aproach very strongly.
ric
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