Simple church is not simple, it is difficult
I want to talk about my experience in simple church.
After starting in 2002 with 5 people in 3 years we were grown up to 11 adult people an two kids. We tried to live the values of a simple church what means for us: Jesus in our midst, the holy spirit has already prepared every thing when we come together, we want to live a strong coummunity life and take our emphasis on decipleship and evangelisation. So I can say we (I) tried our best out of what we have learned. In the time of developement we had around 25 % new believers, the other christians came from other churches.
After 4 strong years we came in a crisis about our vision - we had many controverse discussions about how to go on - I missed the reaching out to nonbeleivers. I must say, we had 5- 6 people with strong leadeship tendences. After one year struggeling and fighting, the youngest under us find out a conlcusion, everybody was able to agree: To split in three groups.
It was not easy for me, because I felt that we missed the point the holy spirit wanted to teach us about dicipleship, ministry und reproducing housechurches. But I accept it and thought may be, this is the right time for multiplikation in such a way, if it is not other possiple.
For a view month we met regularly once a month in a kind of network celebration. But it ended slowly, people were spread out and most of them entered other housechurches - no growths came.
Now, two 2 years later I feel, the problem was, that most of our people had kept their own valuesystem, influenced by the church there have been before. I feel know, better to start a new church with fresh saved people not from other churches, were we cant develop a own new foundation.
What do you think about it.
Ric
After starting in 2002 with 5 people in 3 years we were grown up to 11 adult people an two kids. We tried to live the values of a simple church what means for us: Jesus in our midst, the holy spirit has already prepared every thing when we come together, we want to live a strong coummunity life and take our emphasis on decipleship and evangelisation. So I can say we (I) tried our best out of what we have learned. In the time of developement we had around 25 % new believers, the other christians came from other churches.
After 4 strong years we came in a crisis about our vision - we had many controverse discussions about how to go on - I missed the reaching out to nonbeleivers. I must say, we had 5- 6 people with strong leadeship tendences. After one year struggeling and fighting, the youngest under us find out a conlcusion, everybody was able to agree: To split in three groups.
It was not easy for me, because I felt that we missed the point the holy spirit wanted to teach us about dicipleship, ministry und reproducing housechurches. But I accept it and thought may be, this is the right time for multiplikation in such a way, if it is not other possiple.
For a view month we met regularly once a month in a kind of network celebration. But it ended slowly, people were spread out and most of them entered other housechurches - no growths came.
Now, two 2 years later I feel, the problem was, that most of our people had kept their own valuesystem, influenced by the church there have been before. I feel know, better to start a new church with fresh saved people not from other churches, were we cant develop a own new foundation.
What do you think about it.
Ric
Views: 186
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on -
Howdy Chris -
I'm doing well today (sat here too long yesterday, posting, and now I have a bunch of stuff to do ... and yet, here I am sitting...!).
Thanks for asking for clarification here .. I'll try to explain what I'm saying.
First, you should know that I'm more of an intuitive person, than a fact person. So, I speak from inside, and sometimes it doesn't make clear sense to folks who are more logical (I can do logical -- I'm a lawyer's/judge's kid, but it isn't my native tongue, so to speak).
I see "church" as our identity, who we are, more than what we do. So, those of us who are awakened to Jesus, those who follow Him, are the Church ... whether we're together, apart, in a living room, in a sanctuary, on a walk in the park, grocery shopping, eating, or whatevering.
I see that we're a spiritual family, and like natural families, we like to get together ... particularly with the ones with whom God has knit us together. I mean, it's as if we can't help BUT get together...! We love each other, and we feel somehow more complete when together.
That's the corporate expression of Church for me -- spiritual family.
It really doesn't matter what we *do* when we get together, for He is with us, and He will lead... if that's our intention (actually, I believe He's always leading, always orchestrating, only we're more aware of it at some times than others).
We used to plan things, someone was appointed to do a teaching, someone else gathered songs to sing, someone else planned something for the children, and we did that, for over a year. It got boring. It felt contrived. The life got sucked out of it. It's like God let us come to the end of our agenda, and then He met us there... though, of course, He was always there, and it's not as if nothing good ever happened. It just felt - human-fixated.
So, we stopped planning, and we got to know each other, without the masks, the agenda, the plans. We got real. We started with playing "Balderdash", and it was a hoot. It's amazing how you can get to know a person through games. We ate a lot, and did things together (practical stuff, like house projects, and cleaning, and just hanging out).
We still do that ... just get together, bring food to share, bring thoughts to share. The main "agenda" is to share whatever God's been showing each of us. Never the same thing twice.
We're about to do a "new" thing ... some of us went to a Theophostic conference and watched as one of us got set free from some long-believed lies, that were hidden behind an abuse-memory. Powerful. So, we're wanting to delve into this, to learn how to better help each other with this form of mind-renewal/healing, for all of us to come into more healing (including the children and teens). But, we know, having done some of this before, that it's not a human agenda, as the Holy Spirit shows up and does what only He can do, allowing us to particiapte in His process.
We do less planning, more living, more sharing from the depths of who we are. It took time, and building trust, to get here. There's no "course" to take to get here. Balderdash might not work with another group, as each group is unique.
Now, I don't know that this sort of freedom could happen in an IC setting, or even in a "cell group", or "home group" where there's pastoral/board oversight. But -- we are the Body of Christ, and He can very well call some folks to be IN the IC system, for His purposes (for He loves the folks in there, too, and wants them set free). I don't know what He's going to do with them, with us, or how He's going to move us all further out of religion and more into relationship. It may be cataclysmic, or incremental, I dunno. Not my business. I see it happening, and it seems to be picking up speed.
But -- I suspect that "house/simple church" isn't THE answer either ... it feels more like a transitorial thing to me. It feels like a stepping stone. I'm suspecting that whatever we come TO is going t
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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PART II:
But -- I suspect that "house/simple church" isn't THE answer either ... it feels more like a transitorial thing to me. It feels like a stepping stone. I'm suspecting that whatever we come TO is going to be far more organic, far more relational, far more authentic, than even what we're now experiencing.
Not sure if ANY of this even came close to resembling an answer to your question, Chirs - LOL! Please feel free to tell me I'm WAY off, and to ask for more clarity ... hopefully we'll manage to communicate...! :)
Shalom, Dena
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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Ah, then I did understand! Yay!
Thanks for letting me know -- and I do very much agree with you!
Shalom, Dena
Richard said:Hello Dena,
yes I am from Germany (near Düsseldorf) - may be you didn`t missunderstood me. With bad influenca I mean. People from traditional churches, beeing longer time christians, when they are in a simple chruch they still have a value system in their heard what is aginst simple chruch values.
This other valuesystem, together with wounds and bitterness is like a bad virus what attacs the immunsystem of simple church aproach very strongly.
ric
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Permalink Reply by Jay Wilson on -
Dena
I can really appreciate your story. I find that we can get to caught up in having to do this or that and really miss what God wants. When we started our first Missional Community 3 years ago, we had 10 believers and a family of unbelievers. We stared gathering at our house and eating and talking about whatever came up. After 3 weeks, we were talking about movies. I silently prayed that God would take us to a place that we could move to spiritual things. About 5 minutes went by and the movie Pirates of the Caribbean came up. I announced that I had a JSV Bible. Everybody said JSV? I replied, Jack Sparrow Version! I pulled out a bible study book based on the movie. I asked if anybody spoke pirate and the Father of the family said yes. I gave him the book and he read the scriptures like a pirate. After that we read scripture at almost all our gathers.
The point is start meeting, relax and allow the Holy Spirit to take you where He wants when He wants.
Jay
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Permalink Reply by Galen & Jennifer CURRAH on -
Hi, Dena,
Thanks for your query. I work some in Africa with mostly illiterate folk for whom searching the Bible proves a challenge. Yet they respect the Scriptures and often find that the NT speaks more clearly to them than do I, even though the Spirit gives to each one of us some very pertinent insights. The written NT itself advocates for prophetic utterances, revelations and teachings, and all prophetic utterances are subject to evaluation and to the written Word. So, I think you are right, it is often a matter of personality, gifting and cultural preferences, where one puts more emphasis while seeking balance.
Galen
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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Thanks for the context, Galen ... it helps me to picture how you're framing your words.
I'm struck by how amazing is our Father, in that He can meet each of His children, right where they're at, and lead them to Him, in the way they most need. His truth transcends all ages, all peoples, all perspectives.
He's amazing and lavish, no?
Shalom, Dena
Galen & Jennifer CURRAH said:Hi, Dena,
Thanks for your query. I work some in Africa with mostly illiterate folk for whom searching the Bible proves a challenge. Yet they respect the Scriptures and often find that the NT speaks more clearly to them than do I, even though the Spirit gives to each one of us some very pertinent insights. The written NT itself advocates for prophetic utterances, revelations and teachings, and all prophetic utterances are subject to evaluation and to the written Word. So, I think you are right, it is often a matter of personality, gifting and cultural preferences, where one puts more emphasis while seeking balance.
Galen
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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Chris -
There are very many who do not wish to stand next to me during a thunder-storm...! LOL!
But, likely, we'll both just get soggy.
As for "Reimagining Church", yes, I've read everything Frank's written (he's asked me to help foist this book, as "Pagan Christianity" is incomplete without it ... with "Pagan" folks just think Frank is cranky -- and the first version, which I read 3+ years ago, certainly enhanced my "Dang-I've-Been-Duped-By-the-Institution" angst..!).
In some ways, I'm wondering if "church" was meant to be that first century transition-generation, and not beyond .. but that we're now in something far more glorious, if we can let go, and let Him show us what it means to have His very Presence with us... but that's just me, something I'm exploring, and not something I'm standing on (I hold my beliefs in very loose hands now, allowing Him to tweak...).
You wrote: Are you Way off? - We probably all are way off- but its ok - He loves us and will never let us go!
Woo-HOO! I love that! We get our knickers in a was over being "right or wrong" but He's committed to finishing what He began in us! And yeah, He never lets us go..! We're free to leave the shallows and dive into the depths with Him!
Shalom, Dena
Chris & Vina Pridham said:Dena,
You answered the question very well. I go the more intuitive way as well. I am always interested to hear the experience of those who are pursuing Christ especially the corporate pursuit of Christ. The pursuit of Church structure or form is temporary at best. I look at churching as part of a process towards something else but I do believe that we are to experience and come to know something or more properly Someone in the experience .
Simple church not the answer? I am not going to stand next to you in a lighting storm. Christ is the answer - He is who we want to know in every way we can.
Are you Way off? - We probably all are way off- but its ok - He loves us and will never let us go!
Your bro chris
P.S. Have you read Frank's book Reimagining Church?
Dena Brehm said:PART II:
But -- I suspect that "house/simple church" isn't THE answer either ... it feels more like a transitorial thing to me. It feels like a stepping stone. I'm suspecting that whatever we come TO is going to be far more organic, far more relational, far more authentic, than even what we're now experiencing.
Not sure if ANY of this even came close to resembling an answer to your question, Chirs - LOL! Please feel free to tell me I'm WAY off, and to ask for more clarity ... hopefully we'll manage to communicate...! :)
Shalom, Dena
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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Much good stuff here, Rick.
You wrote this:
In the sc movement we liken our church life to being a family. But in what family do the family members say, "We'll come together and be a family for 6 months... or 2 years... and then we'll stop being a family and go our own separate ways until we decide to form a new family."
Initially, my inner mind said, "yeah, why all the break-ups?" But then I started thinking. Forced commitments don't work -- they breed conformity, rather than true connections. I see the entire Body as a Family -- all connected in some sort of way (spiritual bond). And I see that we're living stones, and that only HE can assemble His Church. Only He knows how to put us together, whether for a season or for a lifetime.
I've tried to cling to various groupings, particularly when we all felt emotionally close ... but there've been times where He seems to have other plans, and people move away, or they are led in another direction, and separation happens. I think I have to go with that, and not try to cling to something that He intended to last for a season... like with raising children (I've got 8 of them, and the eldest 2 are on the brink of self-sufficiency, at 21 and 19). I WANT them to stay near us, and to remain part of our intact family ... but they have to follow where He's calling them. Sure, we're always connected (as we are with our Church family), and sure they'll always visit, and we'll never truly separate at a foundational level. BUT - they may be led to form a new "core", and I can't get in the way of how He leads them.
Also, in a SC group, it may become apparent that various ones just don't have the same focus ... and that it may become apparent for them to go in different directions. It can take time to realize that -- and I would hope that the leaving would be harmonious, with mutual blessings.
I guess, bottom line, He needs to lead us, and we have to let go of how *we* think anything should be, and follow Him.
But I SURE understand the pain of having folks leave ...! We had a wonderful core group, just a year ago (we had been through SO much together!), and what I thought was the beginning of something was really the ending ... very painful. Took a while for me to let go and accept it. Still hurts.
I'm glad He wipes the tear from every eye... glad He takes us through whatever we have to walk through...!
(if I totally missed you, just say so - not a problem!)
Shalom, Dena
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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Gotcha.
I guess I don't fear things anymore ... I really trust that God's in control, and His will will be done. And, that He really really loves us, and knows how to lead us, including how to orchestrate things so as to affect our own free will.
Anyway, maybe our ecclesiology and our theology needs some tweaking...! If so, have at us, God!
Shalom, Dena
Rick Knock said:Hi Dena,
No, it's not about people leaving a particular church. People will come and go. My comments had to do with how we define a church, and our attitude toward it. I am convinced there is a major imbalance in the simple church movement that will affect both our ecclesiology and our theology.
God Bless!
Rick.
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Permalink Reply by Alex van Nes on -
Hi Ric,
I think you are right, although a mix of older christian and fresh ones seems to me ideal.
But what interests me most is the question of how you have tried to reach nonbelievers. Do you have a specific action plan for that (I mean: actually going out to the places where unbelievers live), or is it mainly through the members of your house church that you try to attract people to your group.
Alex
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Permalink Reply by Richard on -
Hello Alex,
in the last 6-7 years, when our housechurch run, new belevers came through two kinds of activities. The first was a biblestudy group in the university - several asians get saved through this. Two of them, a chinese and a korean stayed in our housechurch. The other aktivity came through my ministry, one part of this is working as a life coach, also for nonchristians.
ric
Alex van Nes said:Hi Ric,
I think you are right, although a mix of older christian and fresh ones seems to me ideal.
But what interests me most is the question of how you have tried to reach nonbelievers. Do you have a specific action plan for that (I mean: actually going out to the places where unbelievers live), or is it mainly through the members of your house church that you try to attract people to your group.
Alex
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Permalink Reply by Galen & Jennifer CURRAH on
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Hi, Ric,
Thanks for sharing more details. I concur with your conclusion, that believers bring with them their previous values.
CP workers whom I know seem to agree that multiplication growth come mostly from starting simple churches with all new believers, maybe with some older ones who understand and seek to build off the new ones.
Another common hindrance to multiplication is the presence of wonderful believers who come from different churches and whose allegiance is to their "main" church and its traditions that they feel guilty about violating.
Simple churches of long-term believers are good and right, they just seldom multiply. However, if they will pray often and purposefully for opportunities to win others and will start new churches with those new ones, then the process can keep going - again - through new believers in new simple churches.
My wife and I made the same mistakes in a simple church we started with some neighbors four years ago: older believers who had a "main" church and loved the fellowship, even the miracles that the Lord did in our midst, but were unwilling to believe God for new believers and reproduction. We finally bid them adieu six months ago.
Galen
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