Elders - Who are they? Who needs them? What do they do?
This should be a rousing and mutually beneficial discussion, don't you think?
By way of conversation starters... how about these?
WHAT ELDERS ARE & DO:
Acts 20:17-31
17 From Miletus, Paul sent to Ephesus for the elders of the church. …
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
Acts 14:23
23 Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.
1 Peter 5:1-4
5:1 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers-not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
1 Tim 5:17-20
17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching *. 18 For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages." 19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
1 Tim 4:14
14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
James 5:14
14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.
Eph 4:11
11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors* and teachers,
* NT:4166
poimen (poy-mane'); of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively):
Acts 11:27-30
27 During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28 One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.) 29 The disciples, each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea. 30 This they did, sending their gift to the elders by Barnabas and Saul.
Acts 21:17-19
17 When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
QUALIFICATIONS:
Titus 1:5-9
5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6 An elder must be
• blameless,
• the husband of but one wife,
• a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be
• blameless-not overbearing,
• not quick-tempered,
• not given to drunkenness,
• not violent,
• not pursuing dishonest gain.
8 Rather he must be
• hospitable,
• one who loves what is good,
• who is self-controlled,
• upright,
• holy and
• disciplined.
9 He must
• hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught,
so that he can
• encourage others by sound doctrine and
• refute those who oppose it.
1 Tim 3:1-13
3:1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task.
2 Now the overseer must be
• above reproach,
• the husband of but one wife,
• temperate,
• self-controlled,
• respectable,
• hospitable,
• able to teach, see endnote 1
• 3 not given to drunkenness,
• not violent but gentle,
• not quarrelsome,
• not a lover of money.
• 4 He must manage his own family well and
• see that his children obey him with proper respect.
5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?)
6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.
7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
8 Deacons,
likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11 In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12 A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
By way of conversation starters... how about these?
WHAT ELDERS ARE & DO:
Acts 20:17-31
17 From Miletus, Paul sent to Ephesus for the elders of the church. …
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
Acts 14:23
23 Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.
1 Peter 5:1-4
5:1 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers-not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
1 Tim 5:17-20
17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching *. 18 For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages." 19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
1 Tim 4:14
14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
James 5:14
14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.
Eph 4:11
11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors* and teachers,
* NT:4166
poimen (poy-mane'); of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively):
Acts 11:27-30
27 During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28 One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.) 29 The disciples, each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea. 30 This they did, sending their gift to the elders by Barnabas and Saul.
Acts 21:17-19
17 When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
QUALIFICATIONS:
Titus 1:5-9
5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6 An elder must be
• blameless,
• the husband of but one wife,
• a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be
• blameless-not overbearing,
• not quick-tempered,
• not given to drunkenness,
• not violent,
• not pursuing dishonest gain.
8 Rather he must be
• hospitable,
• one who loves what is good,
• who is self-controlled,
• upright,
• holy and
• disciplined.
9 He must
• hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught,
so that he can
• encourage others by sound doctrine and
• refute those who oppose it.
1 Tim 3:1-13
3:1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task.
2 Now the overseer must be
• above reproach,
• the husband of but one wife,
• temperate,
• self-controlled,
• respectable,
• hospitable,
• able to teach, see endnote 1
• 3 not given to drunkenness,
• not violent but gentle,
• not quarrelsome,
• not a lover of money.
• 4 He must manage his own family well and
• see that his children obey him with proper respect.
5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?)
6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.
7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
8 Deacons,
likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11 In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12 A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
Tags: authority, elder, elders, leadership
Views: 76
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Chris Sterling on -
How does a servant "command" those he is serving?
c
Michael said:Are we saying that an elder can never issue a command or make a decision on behalf of those whom He is overseeing?
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on -
Command? Make a decision on behalf of someone else?
Do you not see the essence of control here...?
We have to get out of the "institutional" CEO mindset, and into the extended-family, equal priesthood of ALL believers here...
It's not about "who gets to be on top" anymore -- it's "how low can each go" in outserving one another...
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
Michael said:Are we saying that an elder can never issue a command or make a decision on behalf of those whom He is overseeing?
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Permalink Reply by Tom LeCompte on -
I don't think what is meant is CEO type of command, but rather what a shepherd would do for a flock. Sometimes the shepherd has to step in and intervene for the flock for their own protection. When he does so, he's not thinking about power issues. He's only thinking that "If I don't do something quick, that sheep is going to be eaten by the wolf." A shepherd isn't about control, he is about nurture and protection. Sometimes that involves hard decisions made on behalf of the flock.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Queen on -
Some key thoughts mentioned so far (to me) are:
Elders are servant-leaders, not dictators.
"Elder" is a role that one fills; it is qualified for through maturity in Christ.
There is a question about authority, about who can say someone is in error. Without question, lording it over people, being heavy handed, etc. is not in keeping with the NT.
That being said, what do we do with these?
2 Cor 10:7-8
8 For even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than pulling you down, I will not be ashamed of it.
(from New International Version)
2 Cor 13:10
10 This is why I write these things when I am absent, that when I come I may not have to be harsh in my use of authority-the authority the Lord gave me for building you up, not for tearing you down.
(from New International Version)
Titus 2:15
15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.
(from New International Version)
Heb 13:17
17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
(from New International Version)
1 Thess 5:12-15
12 Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 14 And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15 Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else.
(from New International Version)
Philem 8-9
8 Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, 9 yet I appeal to you on the basis of love.
(from New International Version)
There are other scriptures that shed additional light on leadership that deal with setting an example, gentleness, etc. BUT, we have to come to terms with these scriptures as well. I have no interest in controlling other people, nor do I care at all for people trying to manipulate me. I DO have keen interest in understanding how God wants us to function as HIS family on HIS mission to make disciples.
So, how do we incorporate the verses shown above into our understanding of elders?
p.s. It really is great to see people interacting about these issues here!
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Permalink Reply by Roger Dreger on -
I'll just jump in, on the issue of authority and control. There is a problematic verse in Hebrews 13:7 "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be on no advantage to you" NIV
The word translated obey is "peitho" Strongs G3982 and means "to persuade", "to listen to", "to be persuaded", or "to have faith in". So we are to allow ourselves to be persuaded by the elders/deacons/overseers and listen to them. They are "men who must give an account". That is they are to be servant leaders, they are to live a life as believers that makes them "examples to the flock:" (1st Peter 5:4).
In other words, if they have met all the requirements of an elder that we have been discussing, then that should make you want to listen to or be persauded by them. Again, elders who are doing all these other things will not lord it over or set themselves up as unquestioned authority.
One final point, it is not one person that this is talking about but "leaders"; the group of elders/deacons/overseers. If they are in agreement on wanting you to do something, allow or be open to them to persuading you to do it.
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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Maybe the verses need to be checked with a translation other than (as Paul Young calls it) the New Irrational Version...? ;)
I've found that the concept of authority is not the modern concept of authority ... and the sense of obey is quite differently nuanced as well.
Anyone with a good working knowledge of Greek want to take this on -- or should we amateurs go after it..?!? LOL!
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Permalink Reply by Alan Knox on -
Steve,
You've raised some good questions with these Scriptures. I do believe that many of them are the result of "unfortunate" glosses that came into the English translations during the Reformation. Many of these translators were instructed to retain ecclasiastical terms. Search for the instructions to the KJV translators for the good example of these instructions. There are several scholarly works that demonstrate how these glosses stick around in the lexicon even though there is little evidence that they are valid translations. I'm reading one such book now called The History of NT Lexicography (not written by a simple church enthusiast, btw).
Also, we should make a distinction between the eleven apostles and Paul, and other believers, including elders. It does seem that these twelve were given certain "authority" or "rights" that we never see transferred to others - even other apostles such as Timothy, Titus, Barnabas, etc.
Now, concerning a few of the passages that you listed. This is how I would translate them. While other Greek scholars may disagree, these translations are consistent with the semantic domain of the words and, I think, more consistent with other passages of Scripture (i.e. Matthew 20:25-27, and others like it).
Titus 2:15
... exhort and rebuke with every command... (The word for "authority" is not actually used here. Instead, its the word "command", which we also find in Titus 1:3 - "according to the commandment of God our Savior". Thus, we - all believers - are to exhort and rebuke with God's commands - not our own.)
Hebrews 13:17
Trust (or follow) your leaders and submit (or yield) to them... (Again, the word "authority" is not used here. Submission is something that is given by others, not demanded by leaders.)
1 Thess 5:12
Respect those who work hard among you and lead you in the Lord and admonish you... (The phrase that would mean "over you" is never found in the Greek NT. However, the phrase that means "among you" is often found.)
I do not see how we can follow Jesus' command to "not exercise authortiy" (which Peter repeats) and yet still somehow exercise authority.
-Alan
Steve OKC said:Some key thoughts mentioned so far (to me) are:
Elders are servant-leaders, not dictators.
"Elder" is a role that one fills; it is qualified for through maturity in Christ.
There is a question about authority, about who can say someone is in error. Without question, lording it over people, being heavy handed, etc. is not in keeping with the NT.
That being said, what do we do with these?
2 Cor 10:7-8
8 For even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than pulling you down, I will not be ashamed of it.
(from New International Version)
2 Cor 13:10
10 This is why I write these things when I am absent, that when I come I may not have to be harsh in my use of authority-the authority the Lord gave me for building you up, not for tearing you down.
(from New International Version)
Titus 2:15
15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.
(from New International Version)
Heb 13:17
17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
(from New International Version)
1 Thess 5:12-15
12 Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 14 And we urge you, brothers, warn those who a
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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Beautiful, Alan...! :)
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
Alan Knox said:Steve,
You've raised some good questions with these Scriptures. I do believe that many of them are the result of "unfortunate" glosses that came into the English translations during the Reformation. Many of these translators were instructed to retain ecclasiastical terms. Search for the instructions to the KJV translators for the good example of these instructions. There are several scholarly works that demonstrate how these glosses stick around in the lexicon even though there is little evidence that they are valid translations. I'm reading one such book now called The History of NT Lexicography (not written by a simple church enthusiast, btw).
Also, we should make a distinction between the eleven apostles and Paul, and other believers, including elders. It does seem that these twelve were given certain "authority" or "rights" that we never see transferred to others - even other apostles such as Timothy, Titus, Barnabas, etc.
Now, concerning a few of the passages that you listed. This is how I would translate them. While other Greek scholars may disagree, these translations are consistent with the semantic domain of the words and, I think, more consistent with other passages of Scripture (i.e. Matthew 20:25-27, and others like it).
Titus 2:15
... exhort and rebuke with every command... (The word for "authority" is not actually used here. Instead, its the word "command", which we also find in Titus 1:3 - "according to the commandment of God our Savior". Thus, we - all believers - are to exhort and rebuke with God's commands - not our own.)
Hebrews 13:17
Trust (or follow) your leaders and submit (or yield) to them... (Again, the word "authority" is not used here. Submission is something that is given by others, not demanded by leaders.)
1 Thess 5:12
Respect those who work hard among you and lead you in the Lord and admonish you... (The phrase that would mean "over you" is never found in the Greek NT. However, the phrase that means "among you" is often found.)
I do not see how we can follow Jesus' command to "not exercise authortiy" (which Peter repeats) and yet still somehow exercise authority.
-Alan
Steve OKC said:Some key thoughts mentioned so far (to me) are:
Elders are servant-leaders, not dictators.
"Elder" is a role that one fills; it is qualified for through maturity in Christ.
There is a question about authority, about who can say someone is in error. Without question, lording it over people, being heavy handed, etc. is not in keeping with the NT.
That being said, what do we do with these?
2 Cor 10:7-8
8 For even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than pulling you down, I will not be ashamed of it.
(from New International Version)
2 Cor 13:10
10 This is why I write these things when I am absent, that when I come I may not have to be harsh in my use of authority-the authority the Lord gave me for building you up, not for tearing you down.
(from New International Version)
Titus 2:15
15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.
(from New International Version)
Heb 13:17
17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
(from New International Version)
1 Thess 5:12-15
12 Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 14 And we urge you, brothers, warn those who a
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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Glad I could inspire a chuckle, Claudia!
About your question re. authority -- did you read what Alan just shared (& which I lauded!)? He showed what I was talking about, how "authority over" and "obey" just aren't in the text, but were added due to the agendas of those ordering the translations. (BTW, the rest of this post isn't TO you, Claudia -- I'm just bouncing off the idea you suggested here, and letting my meandering thoughts blather away ... just didn't want you to think I was "lecturing" you or something like that!)
Many of us have been hurt by those in authority -- but, rather than that being the sad exception, I'd go so far as to say that abuse is an inevitable result to one being "over" another, in any capacity, where relationships are concerend. It works fine in corporations, military, government. BUT -- it's not God's plan for relationships (IMO, whether marriage, parenting, or the Church ... in every case, when someone sees themself as having authority over another human being, harm is caused in many overt or covert ways, from harsh parenting all the way to slavery).
Power corrupts ... and we fail to see how this very notion of hierarchy is engrained in us -- we see it as our "right" -- for it's rooted in the very first sin, when God warned Eve (for He spoke to her) that Adam would seek to rule over her, as a result of his fallenness (& it's been about fallenness ever since). Further, we don't seem to appreciate how Jesus broke the curse of that fall, and did away with the resulting curse of hierarchy.
Seeing the need to exercise authority over another (even "for their own good") implies that that person is inept at following Jesus, and that Jesus is inept at leading that person. Sure, we can remind a fellow Jesus-follower of what He's told us, but to assume we need to protect them shows a lack of confidence in Him who heads the Body, IMO.
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
Claudia Labrador said:Dena, I'm not making light or fun of the issue being discussed, but I had to laugh at your comment about the "New Irrational Version", as I've also often heard it referred to as the New un-Inspired Version. Too funny! I'm not making fun of the Bible either. Since having received a copy of the NIV years ago, (which was my first study bible outside of the KJV), I have since been acquainted with others and have learned the difference between a very solid translation and a dynamic equivalent version with lots of uninspired, chalk full of knowledge notes added for your studying enjoyment. :-)
Back to the topic: Something I have been pondering--regardless of whether the word "authority" is a right or wrong interpretation....
When someone has been victimized by the "authority" within the IC, a position of leadership in in the body, by a spouse, or what have you, it is very difficult for the hurt one to trust and come again under the subjection of authority. The one who has been hurt time and again by such no longer can come naively like a child, but rather desires to run hard and fast away from it. What say you to that hurt and neglected sheep that has become a rebel/runaway that would make him/her believe that your kind of authority is from God?? Is there anything you could say to convince that sheep? Or would the best solution be to just live out the example you desire others to follow and stop expecting that anyone can claim the right to command another?
I'm just curious about what some answers might look like...
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Permalink Reply by Steve Queen on
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Seeking to impose authority on another is clearly prohibited by Jesus. It's also something I have no interest in (giving or receiving).
I do agree with Claudia that living a Jesus-centered life will produce character in us that hurt, broken, distrustful people will be more inclined to trust. Influence is granted by the hearer, not imposed by the speaker in God's Kingdom.
Candidly, I've felt like a spiritual orphan for most of my 24 years as a disciple of Jesus. I just haven't met many who even remotely seemed like a father or mother in the faith... who just wanted to see others grow and mature with no additional self-centered motivation. Those people - those who want to help others grow, period - display the heart of Jesus, of an elder.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Queen on
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Hi Alan.
Which translations would you recommend for those verses you referenced, if not the NIV? I'd be interested to know which ones you rely on. I'm always interested in better scholarship.
Jesus did make clear that leadership in his kingdom was NOT to be done as the gentile rulers (e.g. Rome), by force and imposition. Rather, leadership was to be done like Jesus through serving, laying down one's life for others.
Also, what about the other verses?
2 Cor 10:8
8 For even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than pulling you down, I will not be ashamed of it.
(from New International Version)
8 For even if I should boast somewhat further about our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you, I shall not be put to shame, - NAS
8 Now, even if I boast a little too much of our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for tearing you down, I will not be ashamed of it. - NRSV
2 Cor 13:10
10 This is why I write these things when I am absent, that when I come I may not have to be harsh in my use of authority-the authority the Lord gave me for building you up, not for tearing you down.
(from New International Version)
10 For this reason I am writing these things while absent, in order that when present I may not use severity, in accordance with the authority which the Lord gave me, for building up and not for tearing down. - NAS
10 So I write these things while I am away from you, so that when I come, I may not have to be severe in using the authority that the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down. - NRSV
Philem 8-9
8 Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, 9 yet I appeal to you on the basis of love.
(from New International Version)
Therefore, though I have enough confidence in Christ to order you to do that which is proper, 9 yet for love’s sake I rather appeal to you — since I am such a person as Paul, the aged, and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus — NAS
For this reason, though I am bold enough in Christ to command you to do your duty, 9 yet I would rather appeal to you on the basis of love—and I, Paul, do this as an old man, and now also as a prisoner of Christ Jesus. - NRSV
I'v seen how power corrupts people. But, I've also seen people who would sever fellowship if anyone tried to point out scripture to show were incorrect about a particular issue. I'm simply trying to understand how the pieces fit together.
Alan Knox said:Steve,
You've raised some good questions with these Scriptures. I do believe that many of them are the result of "unfortunate" glosses that came into the English translations during the Reformation. Many of these translators were instructed to retain ecclasiastical terms. Search for the instructions to the KJV translators for the good example of these instructions. There are several scholarly works that demonstrate how these glosses stick around in the lexicon even though there is little evidence that they are valid translations. I'm reading one such book now called The History of NT Lexicography (not written by a simple church enthusiast, btw).
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Permalink Reply by Bill Benninghoff on -
Alan these are the same conclusions that I have arrived at. Thanks for stating this so clearly.
I think that it does bear mentioning that Paul was in an apostolic relationship to the churches he was writing to. He was not functioning as an elder in the church but rather an apostle, who had been given authority (influence) to build them up and not tear them down. Paul said to the Corinthians that they had many teachers, but very few fathers. So the role of the apostle to me seems to be a fatherly role. To me, this would involve more directive guidance, but even then, it does not include the authority to command. I don't think any believer has authority *over* another believer no matter what function in the body they have. Paul's authority was given to him by God, but the believers in Corinth needed to recognize that authority and "allow themselves to be persuaded" by Paul as Hebrews 13:17 says.
Timothy and Titus also, were not "pastors" or elders to the church, but rather apostles. This is a different relationship than that of an elder to the people he or she oversees. I think apostles are those involved in birthing a church and then giving fatherly guidance to that church as it grows and matures. Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus have been labeled the "pastoral epistles" but perhaps could more accurately be called the "apostolic epistles."
In his letter to the Thessalonians, Paul talks about being like a mother to the believers and about being like a father to them. I think this parental love and guidance is one of the key aspects of apostolic ministry. The main aspect of apostolic ministry I think is to continually point people to Jesus.
"As apostles of Christ we could have been a burden to you, but we were gentle among you, like a mother caring for her little children. We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well, because you had become so dear to us." (1 Thess. 2:6-8)
"For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory." (1 Thess. 2:11)
Bill
Alan Knox said:Steve,
You've raised some good questions with these Scriptures. I do believe that many of them are the result of "unfortunate" glosses that came into the English translations during the Reformation. Many of these translators were instructed to retain ecclasiastical terms. Search for the instructions to the KJV translators for the good example of these instructions. There are several scholarly works that demonstrate how these glosses stick around in the lexicon even though there is little evidence that they are valid translations. I'm reading one such book now called The History of NT Lexicography (not written by a simple church enthusiast, btw). Also, we should make a distinction between the eleven apostles and Paul, and other believers, including elders. It does seem that these twelve were given certain "authority" or "rights" that we never see transferred to others - even other apostles such as Timothy, Titus, Barnabas, etc.
Now, concerning a few of the passages that you listed. This is how I would translate them. While other Greek scholars may disagree, these translations are consistent with the semantic domain of the words and, I think, more consistent with other passages of Scripture (i.e. Matthew 20:25-27, and others like it).
Titus 2:15
... exhort and rebuke with every command... (The word for "authority" is not actually used here. Instead, its the word "command", which we also find in Titus 1:3 - "according to the commandment of God our Savior". Thus, we - all believers - are to exhort and rebuke with God's commands - not our own.)
Hebrews 13:17
Trust (or follow) your leaders
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