Depression in christians.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Maggie on October 19, 2008 at 6:05am

What a wonderful friend!

Dana Cashwell said:

I've been there. I am there. I've been depressed or working on my depression for 7 years and I can tell you, from your description she sounds depressed. This is going to sound odd but one of the things that helped me was a friend coming over and just helping me with stuff. We'd clean my whole house from top to bottom. Everybody else, my husband, children, parents, in-laws, other friends, told me to snap out of it or didn't understand how to help me. You can't just snap put of it. She came over and was Jesus to me. I saw the face of God every time I saw her. She didn't judge me. She didn't expect me to do more than I could. She didn't care if I bathed or had corn stuck to the walls. She just loved me like nobody else was. I will never forget her for that.

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Permalink Reply by Jaimee on October 21, 2008 at 1:31pm

Hi Cara, and everyone else! I have never posted here before but since the issue is near and not so dear to me, I figured I would weigh in according to my own experiences.

Depression can be both/either situational and/or spiritual and/or chemical. What I have found is that if we are in a depressing situation for an extended period of time, we oftentimes stop caring for ourselves. Our diet and exercise goes down the toilet and we don't get enough sunshine or human interaction. These are things that God created us to have. Then, because not caring for ourselves creates a problem with the neurotransmitters in the brain (imbalances of seratonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, etc) we sink even deeper, become withdrawn, and often shut even God out.

I have found (for me) that caring for myself physically as well as spiritually (and for me this is sometimes considered drastic, but a mostly raw vegan diet really perks me up!)-- diet, proper exercise, time in the Bible, prayer and hanging out with other Christians really helps! Also continued depression can cause or be caused by problems with other body systems-- thyroid, adrenals, liver, etc.

Along with diet and exercise, I take certain key supplements such as a thyroid supp and fish oil to keep things in balance. It's different for everyone and I think that's where we can be a friend to someone who is going through severe depression. Reminding them that they haven't tried all the options yet, that there are still things we can do to change, to feel better. A lot of times, when you are really depressed, you don't think clearly and feel utterly hopeless to do anything to change.

It is a tragedy the way the "church" has treated depression/bipolar disorder and other psychiatric problems. It makes people feel that the reason they are depressed is that they don't have enough faith or they would be healed. We need to be a friend and listen, advise, but not commiserate.

There is a Christian comedian... I think his name is Tim (Tony?) Hawkins? He talks about how we tell God to bless our food at dinner... He says "God please somehow miraculously transform this food to be nourishing to my body... and please put a hedge of protection around my pancreas!" Something like that anyway! I believe God wants to heal us, but I also believe he wants us to take care of ourselves by appreciating the good nutrition we have available to us.

I'm so sorry I've rambled on! Wow what a first post!

Jaimee

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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on October 21, 2008 at 10:05pm

Welcome, Jaimee!

You did just fine with your first post -- you shared from your heart and your experience.

You got me wondering, though ... I do keep hearing about raw/vegan diets ... the only thing I can't reconcile is that Jesus Himself, being the Creator of our bodies, and knowing how we're meant to function, ate baked bread, and cooked fish. Sure, He also ate raw grain, and likely fruits and vegetables ... but I don't see that He abstained from animal protein or cooked foods. In fact, He passed out bread and fish to thousands of people, on two occasions. And, being God, He could've caused all manner of berry bushes to suddenly grow right there, to feed the people ...

Anyway, while I do advocate eating for health (& have done it all, food combining, macrobiotic, vegan, organic, etc.), I've just never been able to get my brain around what Jesus did, in the way of eating.

(of course, this is WAY off topic, and should likely go into another thread if anyone wants to pursue it --- or else, y'all can just drop it, LOL!)

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jaimee said:

Hi Cara, and everyone else! I have never posted here before but since the issue is near and not so dear to me, I figured I would weigh in according to my own experiences.

Depression can be both/either situational and/or spiritual and/or chemical. What I have found is that if we are in a depressing situation for an extended period of time, we oftentimes stop caring for ourselves. Our diet and exercise goes down the toilet and we don't get enough sunshine or human interaction. These are things that God created us to have. Then, because not caring for ourselves creates a problem with the neurotransmitters in the brain (imbalances of seratonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, etc) we sink even deeper, become withdrawn, and often shut even God out.

I have found (for me) that caring for myself physically as well as spiritually (and for me this is sometimes considered drastic, but a mostly raw vegan diet really perks me up!)-- diet, proper exercise, time in the Bible, prayer and hanging out with other Christians really helps! Also continued depression can cause or be caused by problems with other body systems-- thyroid, adrenals, liver, etc.

Along with diet and exercise, I take certain key supplements such as a thyroid supp and fish oil to keep things in balance. It's different for everyone and I think that's where we can be a friend to someone who is going through severe depression. Reminding them that they haven't tried all the options yet, that there are still things we can do to change, to feel better. A lot of times, when you are really depressed, you don't think clearly and feel utterly hopeless to do anything to change.

It is a tragedy the way the "church" has treated depression/bipolar disorder and other psychiatric problems. It makes people feel that the reason they are depressed is that they don't have enough faith or they would be healed. We need to be a friend and listen, advise, but not commiserate.

There is a Christian comedian... I think his name is Tim (Tony?) Hawkins? He talks about how we tell God to bless our food at dinner... He says "God please somehow miraculously transform this food to be nourishing to my body... and please put a hedge of protection around my pancreas!" Something like that anyway! I believe God wants to heal us, but I also believe he wants us to take care of ourselves by appreciating the good nutrition we have available to us.

I'm so sorry I've rambled on! Wow what a first post!

Jaimee

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jaimee on October 22, 2008 at 5:45am

Hey Dena! Thanks for the welcome.

No, I realize some people do feel that it is "sin" to eat certain things or that there is necessarily a certain way of eating that is better for everyone based on the Bible. I don't feel that way. I do believe that we have a responsibility to eat healthfully, and also mindful of our own bodies as we have been given. If I were in a situation in which fish and bread were what were readily available, I would definitely eat it rather than starve that's for sure (not that I think that's what Jesus was doing, I just think that's what he ate, and I'm not going to criticize it! lol.) I may have to hold my nose though (fish, blech) :)

I do have an underlying health condition. Its called Familial Hemiplegic Migraine. We actually thought I had MS for a long time, that's what got me researching different diets. I get one sided paralysis, vertigo, etc. The raw vegan diet has anti-inflammatory properties, so it works very very well for me. I also looked into The Maker's Diet (again another one that believes that a certain way is the right way and all others are "wrong"). I think it is a very well balanced, healthful diet as well.

I do think, at least as Americans, we have become dependent on prepackaged, dead foods and that is so unfortunate. More of our produce goes to feed our animals than it does us and that's just sad! I think everyone would be better off to eat more fresh fruits and veggies and switch to whole grains rather than white flour products. It's hard to retrain ourselves, especially with the high price of groceries (we feed a family of 6 on a budget of less than $100 per week and that includes diapers and household products). I would not be able to do it if I had to purchase meats. Beans, lentils, etc are much less expensive.

I feel I am rambling again! Anyhow, I guess all that to say I really don't see a disconnect with the diet we choose to live by and how Jesus ate. I think it depends on the person's individual health status, what we each have to work with, etc. I just think it's important to do the best we can to be healthy so we can live a long, well life, able to serve God to the best of our ability.

Jaimee

Dena Brehm said:

Welcome, Jaimee!

You did just fine with your first post -- you shared from your heart and your experience.

You got me wondering, though ... I do keep hearing about raw/vegan diets ... the only thing I can't reconcile is that Jesus Himself, being the Creator of our bodies, and knowing how we're meant to function, ate baked bread, and cooked fish. Sure, He also ate raw grain, and likely fruits and vegetables ... but I don't see that He abstained from animal protein or cooked foods. In fact, He passed out bread and fish to thousands of people, on two occasions. And, being God, He could've caused all manner of berry bushes to suddenly grow right there, to feed the people ...

Anyway, while I do advocate eating for health (& have done it all, food combining, macrobiotic, vegan, organic, etc.), I've just never been able to get my brain around what Jesus did, in the way of eating.

(of course, this is WAY off topic, and should likely go into another thread if anyone wants to pursue it --- or else, y'all can just drop it, LOL!)

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jaimee said:

Hi Cara, and everyone else! I have never posted here before but since the issue is near and not so dear to me, I figured I would weigh in according to my own experiences.

Depression can be both/either situational and/or spiritual and/or chemical. What I have found is that if we are in a depressing situation for an extended period of time, we oftentimes stop caring for ourselves. Our diet and exercise goes down the toilet and we don't get enough sunshine or human interaction. These are things that God created us to have. Then, because not caring for ourselves creates a problem with the neurotransmitters in the brain (imbalances of seratonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, etc) we sink even deeper, become withdrawn, and often shut even God out.

I have found (for me) that caring for myself physically as well as spiritually (and for me this is sometimes considered drastic, but a mostly raw vegan diet really perks me up!)-- diet, proper exercise, time in the Bible, prayer and hanging out with other Christians really helps! Also continued depression can cause or be caused by problems with other body systems-- thyroid, adrenals, liver, etc.

Along with diet and exercise, I take certain key supplements such as a thyroid supp and fish oil to keep things in balance. It's different for everyone and I think that's where we can be a friend to someone who is going through severe depression. Reminding them that they haven't tried all the options yet, that there are still things we can do to change, to feel better. A lot of times, when you are really depressed, you don't think clearly and feel utterly hopeless to do anything to change.

It is a tragedy the way the "church" has treated depression/bipolar disorder and other psychiatric problems. It makes people feel that the reason they are depressed is that they don't have enough faith or they would be healed. We need to be a friend and listen, advise, but not commiserate.

There is a Christian comedian... I think his name is Tim (Tony?) Hawkins? He talks about how we tell God to bless our food at dinner... He says "God please somehow miraculously transform this food to be nourishing to my body... and please put a hedge of protection around my pancreas!" Something like that anyway! I believe God wants to heal us, but I also believe he wants us to take care of ourselves by appreciating the good nutrition we have available to us.

I'm so sorry I've rambled on! Wow what a first post!

Jaimee

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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on October 22, 2008 at 6:46pm

Thanks for your explanation -- I understand, particularly in light of your condition... that makes good sense.

Just wondering though -- surely you don't eat raw beans and lentils...?

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jaimee said:

Hey Dena! Thanks for the welcome.

No, I realize some people do feel that it is "sin" to eat certain things or that there is necessarily a certain way of eating that is better for everyone based on the Bible. I don't feel that way. I do believe that we have a responsibility to eat healthfully, and also mindful of our own bodies as we have been given. If I were in a situation in which fish and bread were what were readily available, I would definitely eat it rather than starve that's for sure (not that I think that's what Jesus was doing, I just think that's what he ate, and I'm not going to criticize it! lol.) I may have to hold my nose though (fish, blech) :)

I do have an underlying health condition. Its called Familial Hemiplegic Migraine. We actually thought I had MS for a long time, that's what got me researching different diets. I get one sided paralysis, vertigo, etc. The raw vegan diet has anti-inflammatory properties, so it works very very well for me. I also looked into The Maker's Diet (again another one that believes that a certain way is the right way and all others are "wrong"). I think it is a very well balanced, healthful diet as well.

I do think, at least as Americans, we have become dependent on prepackaged, dead foods and that is so unfortunate. More of our produce goes to feed our animals than it does us and that's just sad! I think everyone would be better off to eat more fresh fruits and veggies and switch to whole grains rather than white flour products. It's hard to retrain ourselves, especially with the high price of groceries (we feed a family of 6 on a budget of less than $100 per week and that includes diapers and household products). I would not be able to do it if I had to purchase meats. Beans, lentils, etc are much less expensive.

I feel I am rambling again! Anyhow, I guess all that to say I really don't see a disconnect with the diet we choose to live by and how Jesus ate. I think it depends on the person's individual health status, what we each have to work with, etc. I just think it's important to do the best we can to be healthy so we can live a long, well life, able to serve God to the best of our ability.

Jaimee

Dena Brehm said:

Welcome, Jaimee!

You did just fine with your first post -- you shared from your heart and your experience.

You got me wondering, though ... I do keep hearing about raw/vegan diets ... the only thing I can't reconcile is that Jesus Himself, being the Creator of our bodies, and knowing how we're meant to function, ate baked bread, and cooked fish. Sure, He also ate raw grain, and likely fruits and vegetables ... but I don't see that He abstained from animal protein or cooked foods. In fact, He passed out bread and fish to thousands of people, on two occasions. And, being God, He could've caused all manner of berry bushes to suddenly grow right there, to feed the people ...

Anyway, while I do advocate eating for health (& have done it all, food combining, macrobiotic, vegan, organic, etc.), I've just never been able to get my brain around what Jesus did, in the way of eating.

(of course, this is WAY off topic, and should likely go into another thread if anyone wants to pursue it --- or else, y'all can just drop it, LOL!)

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jaimee said:

Hi Cara, and everyone else! I have never posted here before but since the issue is near and not so dear to me, I figured I would weigh in according to my own experiences.

Depression can be both/either situational and/or spiritual and/or chemical. What I have found is that if we are in a depressing situation for an extended period of time, we oftentimes stop caring for ourselves. Our diet and exercise goes down the toilet and we don't get enough sunshine or human interaction. These are things that God created us to have. Then, because not caring for ourselves creates a problem with the neurotransmitters in the brain (imbalances of seratonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, etc) we sink even deeper, become withdrawn, and often shut even God out.

I have found (for me) that caring for myself physically as well as spiritually (and for me this is sometimes considered drastic, but a mostly raw vegan diet really perks me up!)-- diet, proper exercise, time in the Bible, prayer and hanging out with other Christians really helps! Also continued depression can cause or be caused by problems with other body systems-- thyroid, adrenals, liver, etc.

Along with diet and exercise, I take certain key supplements such as a thyroid supp and fish oil to keep things in balance. It's different for everyone and I think that's where we can be a friend to someone who is going through severe depression. Reminding them that they haven't tried all the options yet, that there are still things we can do to change, to feel better. A lot of times, when you are really depressed, you don't think clearly and feel utterly hopeless to do anything to change.

It is a tragedy the way the "church" has treated depression/bipolar disorder and other psychiatric problems. It makes people feel that the reason they are depressed is that they don't have enough faith or they would be healed. We need to be a friend and listen, advise, but not commiserate.

There is a Christian comedian... I think his name is Tim (Tony?) Hawkins? He talks about how we tell God to bless our food at dinner... He says "God please somehow miraculously transform this food to be nourishing to my body... and please put a hedge of protection around my pancreas!" Something like that anyway! I believe God wants to heal us, but I also believe he wants us to take care of ourselves by appreciating the good nutrition we have available to us.

I'm so sorry I've rambled on! Wow what a first post!

Jaimee

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Cara on October 23, 2008 at 5:48am

Hi everyone,

Thankyou so much for taking the time to post your experiences, I have learnt such alot from you guys,

I've just picked out some specific points of encouragement, where you guys have managed to give me insight into all this and have attached some questions, not many!

Thankyou Chaplain Nik, you are right, my friend has never been free of someone who hasnn't tried to control/run her life for her, and she flounders when she doesn't have someone to look to for advice/confirmation and acceptance. She kinda needs the 'Feel good factor' trying to live on the 'high's ' of life. She has never had acceptance or encouragement in her marriage or when she was growing up as a child either.
I never thought of it as 'grief' which it obviously is,

and thankyou Maggie, yes she has lost alot, nearly half her life to this mess,
My friend is now convinced she is a Manic Depressive.
The church that she attended with her family before the split 'didn't do healing', laying on of hands or even expected God to make much difference, so the whole thing was kinda brushed under the carpet.

Thankyou Dana, this sounds just like our situation, I.ve been in there and helped with stuff !, or kids and chatted and I don't expect much of her when she's like that, i'm not sure what to expect so I just wait and see because she's only just coping with that moment. I don't know how long realistically for someone to pull through?

Thankyou Jaimee because I can't see what kind of depression this is, I'm just waiting of God right now, she has a councellor (a secular one) who is a christian thankfully and numerous doctors. There are times when she shuts all and sundry out even God I would say.

Thankyou Steven, That there is hope for these guys yet.
Oh gosh you are so right in saying that the guy feels like he's done nothing, he can pull out all the good things he has done like bail her out when she has run up a debt or stuff like that but is quick to pull her down with her faults.(Even in public), Would you say from experience what anyone can do to help?
The guy is still at the old church, not having a relationship with Jesus Christ particularly either but he, like her would still call himself a christian.

Oh thanks guys !
and thankyou Jesus.

Cara

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Permalink Reply by Jaimee on October 23, 2008 at 5:57am

Cara, I'm sorry to hijack.... I'll just answer this one question and then I'll shut up! We can start another thread on diet sometime if its an interest.

Dena. Mmmm... Yum. Hard crunchy dry beans and lentils. :p No, I'm not THAT adventurous! I am "mostly" raw. I eat some cooked food at dinner. Although you can sprout lentils and some beans and that makes them tender and packed with nutrition. If you've ever heard of "Ezekiel bread," that contains sprouted grains and lentils, enabling one to eat totally raw and get a double portion of everything good in grains and legumes. "I" am a failure at sprouting thus far. After rotting 2 batches of garbanzos and actually eating a bite both times... I'm in no hurry to figure this one out!

Jaimee

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Permalink Reply by Dana Cashwell on October 23, 2008 at 7:12am

Cara,

I thank God for you. She may never tell you but right now you are helping her more than she can say.

With all of that said, she needs professional help. Please don't be offended, it has nothing to do with you. It's just that from my own experience, it's what I needed. I didn't listen to my family and friends when they said the exact same thing my therapist said. I wasn't hearing them, granted, I purposefully wasn't hearing them because it all sounded patronizing. My therapist, Heidi, just sat and looked at me until I said something - anything and then reflected it back so I could see. I'm not on any medication for my depression but it hasn't been completely ruled out either. I know they can be expensive but with insurance (if she's got any) it's not bad. If she doesn't have any then maybe she could get help from the state? I'm not a big fan of using the state as a general rule but they will at least have people they can refer her to if they can't help her or she doesn't qualify.

Also, if she will let you help, look for a therapist who happens to be a Christian, not a Christian therapist. Again from my own experience I will say that I got the same response from them as I got from my former church. You know, "Are you truly a christian? Where is your faith? Blah, blah, blah..."

"Pulling through" is a process because depression is like an addiction. You have to retrain yourself and you will backslide a bit, but in the end it's worth it. I hope that answered your question.

Cara said:

Hi everyone,

Thankyou so much for taking the time to post your experiences, I have learnt such alot from you guys,

I've just picked out some specific points of encouragement, where you guys have managed to give me insight into all this and have attached some questions, not many!

Thankyou Chaplain Nik, you are right, my friend has never been free of someone who hasnn't tried to control/run her life for her, and she flounders when she doesn't have someone to look to for advice/confirmation and acceptance. She kinda needs the 'Feel good factor' trying to live on the 'high's ' of life. She has never had acceptance or encouragement in her marriage or when she was growing up as a child either.
I never thought of it as 'grief' which it obviously is,

and thankyou Maggie, yes she has lost alot, nearly half her life to this mess,
My friend is now convinced she is a Manic Depressive.
The church that she attended with her family before the split 'didn't do healing', laying on of hands or even expected God to make much difference, so the whole thing was kinda brushed under the carpet.

Thankyou Dana, this sounds just like our situation, I.ve been in there and helped with stuff !, or kids and chatted and I don't expect much of her when she's like that, i'm not sure what to expect so I just wait and see because she's only just coping with that moment. I don't know how long realistically for someone to pull through?

Thankyou Jaimee because I can't see what kind of depression this is, I'm just waiting of God right now, she has a councellor (a secular one) who is a christian thankfully and numerous doctors. There are times when she shuts all and sundry out even God I would say.

Thankyou Steven, That there is hope for these guys yet.
Oh gosh you are so right in saying that the guy feels like he's done nothing, he can pull out all the good things he has done like bail her out when she has run up a debt or stuff like that but is quick to pull her down with her faults.(Even in public), Would you say from experience what anyone can do to help?
The guy is still at the old church, not having a relationship with Jesus Christ particularly either but he, like her would still call himself a christian.

Oh thanks guys !
and thankyou Jesus.

Cara

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Dana Cashwell on October 23, 2008 at 1:59pm

I wasn't so much delusional as disillusioned. The IC certainly didn't help, my parents just didn't talk about it (like always), my husband took his anger (about the miscarriage) out on me (he never physically hurt me but his words were worse), my oldest daughter was only 10 months old at the time and what was I supposed to do. I did what I was raised to do.

I lied to everyone; including myself about my depression, or as I called it at the time, just a couple of bad days that lasted for several years. Why? Well, I truly thought it was the right thing to do. Let me give you some background info first; you military brats will understand this. In my case, my dad was active duty. When I was growing up, he was doing what he was trained to do while we followed him all over. All the while being told, “Don’t be a burden. Yeah it sucks we have to move again but you’ll get over it. Don’t cry or ever let your father know how you feel. Do your duty. This is how we serve our country.”

So after the miscarriage of my second child, life started to really suck for me. Not because it actually sucked but I just felt like it did. I lied so I wouldn’t be a burden. I thought yeah it sucks but this the life I chose so I’ll snap out of it. I never cried or told my family and friends how I felt. I did my duty as a wife, mother, daughter, sister, and friend but it was all a lie.

My depression stemmed from that and my anger at everybody. I was angry because the same people who taught me that life begins at conception are the same people who said, "well at least you were only 6 weeks along." As if it didn't hurt any less. As if that were OK. As if I didn't grieve for that child. As if I didn't feel guilty for probably and literally flushing them down the toilet. I heard and saw that baby's heart beat! It still makes me angry but I have a new way of dealing with that anger now; I write.

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Permalink Reply by Connie on January 5, 2009 at 8:20pm

Doing your duty as a wife, mother, daughter, etc. is no lie. Needing to escape is the lie. Jesus stood beside you as you tried your best to be wife and mother. He held you when you needed to escape. Cling to whatever you can and let time pass softly. Schedule time for yourself. Eat fruit, vegs, whole grains, beans. If you don't mind me saying, I believe your little baby lived with god before you conceived, and you will see it again. Some things I don't understand, but that isn't one of them. Jesus loves the little children, and mothers. I use writing to figure life out too, it really helps. Just start writing and keep on till you feel you're finished, and then really read the last paragraph. I'm sorry for your grief, but you are wise not to keep it inside. Keep writing. I'd like to say more, but I'd better not.

Dana Cashwell said:

My depression stemmed from that and my anger at everybody. I was angry because the same people who taught me that life begins at conception are the same people who said, "well at least you were only 6 weeks along." As if it didn't hurt any less. As if that were OK. As if I didn't grieve for that child. As if I didn't feel guilty for probably and literally flushing them down the toilet. I heard and saw that baby's heart beat! It still makes me angry but I have a new way of dealing with that anger now; I write.

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