Could A Barack Obama Presidency Be A Blessing in Disguse for American Evangelicals?

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Permalink Reply by Marshall Diakon on October 29, 2008 at 6:10pm

  Thank you, Rick, for opportunity to unzip my reply a bit, and for further depth to your excellent question.

  The asserted "power" or permission to depose leaders remains invalid because it is a power granted to sin. As from the previous reply, eying or spying the taking down of authorities is not less than rebellion. Even for the kingdom of darkness, we rightly speak in truth that the Master has already defeated them by the word of His mouth. The war, though intense, a formality to His victory determined. "But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you.'" If Michael waits upon the Lord concerning the most despicable tyrant the world will ever bear, so also we ought not speak or act in presumptively.
[Jude 1:9]

  Permit me a quick hyperbole in fiction to clarify. To imagine: we now live in a land called United Joy. And, the citizens of U.J. know that the law of the land allows -- even encourages for its citizens to receive a license to operate a motor vehicle IF a husband-father of the family provides his legal wife for one night per annum to the local Drivers Jurisdiction Chief.

  So then, how many faithful disciples will be driving around town in the country of United Joy? I hope that our answer is: None. And, not because there's anything evil about driving down a highway (Los Angeles freeways excluded)... {grin}

  There's only One with the authority to remove authorities: the God of Abraham; and thereby, any messenger He grants His authority to act specifically. Since we have no valid apostolic or prophetic authority to routinely take to a voting booth, take sides in the world's affairs, or take this material life too seriously in our way... Trust Him!




Rick Knock said:

Hi Marshall,

We may have much to agree on where the issue of rebellion is concerned. But you didn't really answer my question. :)

Who does God consider to be the "leaders" in a republic or a democracy?" Is it those who are elected or appointed to serve & administrate the daily affairs of the nation?, Or is it those who put them there and who also have the power to remove them?

Considering that under our form of government, the people are given the power, privilege and responsibility to both choose these representatives, and also to remove them when conditions warrant.

Not to try to put you on the spot, just wonder what you think.

God Bless!

Rick

Permalink Reply by Sean Steckbeck on October 29, 2008 at 7:18pm

The assumption by most people in Israel, depending on who wins the elections, is that by November of next year.

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing, on one hand Iran is experiencing an underground "revival" of sorts.
There are brothers and sisters there in the Lord.
On the other hand, they have a crazy madman who trained Iranian Basiji 8-year-old children as cannon fodder and mine bait for the Iraq-Iran war in the 70-'s 80's as President.... you guessed it, Ahmedinijab was once the Basiji children general and trainer... only a sick man could train such things. THe Basiji children survivors were rewarded with scholarships and are today's nuclear scientists.
Iran has just the amount of crazy messianicism (12th IMam of Shia Islam) that can really hurt Israel.

Shia Islam has been mostly quiet since its injuction at the Omar-Ali rift (and Ali's two sons) on the replacement of Muhammad.
Sunni Islam has been the most active in terrorism and the sword of Islam
DOn't let that fool you, because Shia Islam has always been a minority and acted as such.
According to Shia eschatalogy, once Shia Islam's 12th imam returns from the mysterious cave he dissapeared to... there will the first ever Shia empire, and they will destroy all infidels, including even Sunnis.
Shia has an empire for the first time ever in world history of Islams 1300 years.... Iran (Islamic Revolution), Iraq (Bush government set up), Syria (alawite minority as Shia puppet), Lebanon (Hezbollah having majority popularity now). Even in the Gaza Strip Hamas is considering converting from Sunni to Shia in order not to compete with the SUnni "Islamic Jihad" which is an offbranch of Muslim Brotherhood and offbranch of Al Qaida. Hamas is associated with neither, but are SUnnis. However, they sympathize more with Shias and are considering conversion as to not have two competing Sunni branches in Gaza (Hamas and Islamic Jihad). SO you could add Gaza almost to the equation of the new Shia empire.
Now Shias have an empire, and they have a crazy man who thinks he saw mahdi (twelfth imam) in the Iran-Iraq war and now is the time for Shia Islam to defeat infidels (which include Sunnis, thus fighting in IRaq). This is why for the first time ever the Arabian countries are hoping Israel hits Iran. Because Sunnis are also a Shia target. They never were before, because Shias have always been small minority who didn't stick their nose in anybody;s buisness until Islamic Revolution that Jimmy Carter set up.

So we have a couple bafoons here setting up the Shia empire:

1.) Jimmy Carter- helped with the overthrow of the Sha which led to the Shia Islamic Revolution in IRan, first time Shia ever ruled a country in 1300 years of Shia Islam.... stupid idea Jimmy!

2.) George W Bush- overthrew the evil Saddam Hussein, but replaced him with a Shia ruler and opened up a can of worms by removing the SUnni strongman (Hussein) and resistance against Shia empire. Hussein was evil, but kept the SHias in place only in Iran...Bush opened that can of worms and allowed the spread of the Shia empire into IRaq.

3.) Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert- (the two Ehuds)- Ehud Barak left South Lebanon in 2000, paving the way for Shia Hezbollah formation in addition to the Amal Shia group in Lebanon. Ehud Olmert lost the July 2006 war in Lebanon and gave Hezbollah credence and support among Lebanese by putting in place a worthless resolution. Hezbollah now has more weapons than before, enjoys respect from Hamas who are thinking about converting because the Shias humiliated the Zionists, and got elected in Lebanese Parliament majority of votes. Lebanon is now a Shia country (even though it does have a pluralistic govt setup). Barak in Hebrew sounds almost like Barach, Barak means lightning, but Barach means to run away. THere is a saying...Barak Barach.... Barak ran away.... In Lebanon and in Zeelim. Olmert ran away to, embarassing Israel to the entire Muslim world, opening way to Shia Lebanon.

4.) Ariel Sharon and Amir Peretz- Sharon for the disengagement (of course with demand of George W Bush in the list of hall of shame) allowed Hamas to gain stronghold in Gaza, Peretz let Hamas takeover militarily. Hamas now receives support from Iran and is possibly going to convert to Shia from Sunni... completing the beginning of what they think is a SHia empire.

Combine this with nukes, a mad man, Basiji children.... and you got a country that is PLAIN MAD!

Iran is 30 million people, 10 million are radical Basijis party, another 10 million belong to radical Islamic Revolution party, leaving only 1/3 to moderate parties.


On one hand, if we don't act now... we have a Shia messianic empire and a madman on the loose.
On the other hand.... we have precious brothers and sisters believers in Iran and a revival happening now of salvations.

As a believer in the MIddle East who regurarly meets Arab and Middle East believers and leaders in our region periodically to pray for our region.... its a tough situation.
Even the Arab believing leaders see it as tough as they know the evils of their goverments regime and acknowledge being pro-Israel to the core.
However, they also want to see the salvation of their own people and cry out for mercy and forgiveness and more time for their people to repent for hatred towards God's chosen people.

Permalink Reply by Sean Steckbeck on October 29, 2008 at 9:49pm

Hey guys.... thanks for the encouragement.

As far as Iran goes... I give McCain the thumbs up....McCain who also knew the IRaq WAR WAS a wrong idea, but still tends to to want to stick it out so as to not let Iran totally fill the gap in Iraq.

Obama wants to talk to Ahmednijab....a mistake that will cost the entire ME....similar to Jimmy Carter's mistake.
Obama does not understand the Shia messianicism and will only mess things up.

Obama will also leave Iraq immediately, leaving Iraq completely to Shia forces to fill the gap for an immediate feeling of Shia victory at the heighth of a possible Israel-Iran war. It could also cost the Kurds what the US fought freedom for them. Iraq was a mistake...but the troops need to stay there until job finished.... escape is huge huge huge mistake.

Permalink Reply by Sean Steckbeck on October 29, 2008 at 10:02pm

Think about this,

Everytime an occupation force (whether for good or for bad) leaves a Muslim area with radical Islamic elements as well as with moderates, the gap is always filled by those elements.

Israel did not mean to enter into the 20 year occupation of South Lebanon, but did it as a favor to the CHristian Maronite allies. They left only in 2000, 20 years later, and it still left a gap because the job was incomplete. These things take time and patience one thing our McCulture is not willing to wait out. We judge a war by the first couple years, and dont know how to perservere. The end result was Hezbollah filling the gap of the occupation before the success of dismantling completely the radical elements.


The Disengagement saw the army and the settlers leave Gaza, something that Hamas filled the gap even with a government cooup, being its own renegade entity away from the West Bank even today. It was a stupid move to "run away" from the quagmire in Gaza, or at least at the moment we did this. A worse thing occured than the quagmire.


The moment we left Sinai to Egypt, the SInai is now filled with radical elements (mainly Al Qaida).

Obama plans to run away from the mess Bush got the US into...... wrong plan.... it may be good for the US... however, it will destroy the Middle East , will destroy Iraq, and will help cause a Shia empire to rise.

Maybe the Shia empire will react immediately, or maybe a future presidency will have to deal with the mess Bush got us into and Obama just amplified by running away.

THere is an old saying, you got to clean your own mess.
Obama plans to run away.
McCain looks responsible.

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on October 29, 2008 at 11:16pm

I'm likely to vote for neither Obama nor McCain, but I really dislike false claims about either:

http://fightthesmears.com/articles/24/KhalidiSmear?source=sem-pm-ft...

Sean Steckbeck said:

I live in Israel, Obama supports Khalidi and is friends with Khalidi.

The LA Times is not releasing a dinner Obama had with Khalidi.
Khalidi served in Beirut with the PLO when my country was fighting the PLO in Lebanon.
Many Lebanese Christians were killed by the PLO occupying forces, and so was my wife's brother killed in Beirut by the PLO who served in the IDF (my wife is a native Israeli).
Obama supports someone who had a role in the death of my wife's brother she was very close to.

Khalidi was in Beirut the same year my wife's brother died supporting the people who killed him.
My wife's brother in the IDF (Israeli Army) was in Beirut to help the Lebanese from the occupying PLO invaders into Lebanon.

The PLO was a terrorist org. when Khalidi was a part of it in Beirut.

Obama is also quoted in a leak quote from this video as saying Israel is occupying Palestinians and is creating apartheid.

Sorry, as an Israeli citizen.... Obama wants my death and the death of my people.

Permalink Reply by Dan on October 30, 2008 at 12:13am

Hey Chaplain Nik, I see where you're coming from, but the term "evangelical" has unfortunately come to mean "people who legislate their faith and hold up 'God hates f***' signs." The book unChristian by David Kinnaman has some great research on this and how it has come to be.

Permalink Reply by Cindy Skillman on October 30, 2008 at 12:31am

To address the original post, Yes, Don. I hate to say it, but the church (us) in the USA could probably benefit from a dose of what the church in the rest of the world is dealing with. That is to say, persecution, which I believe would be the eventual result of an Obama presidency. It's bound to come eventually, at least, for true believers. We as a group have become so much like our society at present that it would be difficult for them to figure out who to persecute. Is that why they put up with us?

Well, yes and no. I think mainly it's our heritage of freedom of speech and religion, but that's fast seeping away, and an Obama presidency would accelerate that flow exponentially with "hate crime" legislation and the "fairness doctrine," "hate speech" laws, etc. Lest anyone misunderstand, I don't think people should commit hate crimes, be unfair, or say hateful things, but really . . . this from the folks who don't think it's a problem to provide free abortions to "benefit" the poor? (I'm speaking of a generic "them" here, not anyone on this discussion.) And who gets to decide what is fair and what is unfair, and what is considered hate speech? As for crime, it's all pretty much hateful, isn't it? So if you say that homosexuality is sin or that abortion is murder or that legal porn is perversion, are you guilty of hate speech? Um, . . . yeah. You have to approve of pretty much everything society says you should approve of--not just tolerate it or refrain from condemning the people who engage in it--you have to approve of it, or at least pretend you do.

Anyway, my point (which I've rather gotten away from) is that I believe an Obama presidency would bring at least the beginnings of persecution to the church in the US, and that it's possible that persecution would help us more than hurt us. I don't want it, but I do believe that God will strengthen us and will get us through whatever lies ahead. And if it's His will to purify us in that way, then may His will be done.

So, that said, I don't expect an Obama win. That's not an official prophecy or anything. I'm not confident enough to say "Thus sayeth the Lord," but it's what I believe. It's not that I think God particularly needs to protect us from persecution (that will come in any case). I just don't believe Obama is going to win. So, we'll see.

If McCain takes the White House, I don't see that as a particular boon for evangelicals or other Christians, but at least he'll do what he can do (without expending too much effort) to protect most unborn babies and (very important) to appoint judges who believe in the constitution as a static rather than a living document. And he'll keep our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, which will no doubt save some lives in both of those countries and in Israel. And he'll most likely stand by Israel as long as it doesn't inconvenience him and the US too much.

So, yes I think an Obama presidency could benefit the church by accelerating the advent of persecution and thereby purifying us and motivating us to look to God as our sustainer, but I don't think that's going to happen just yet. Don't stone me if I'm wrong. I could easily be engaging in wishful thinking here.

God bless,

Cindy

Permalink Reply by Stephen (steve) Cornell on October 30, 2008 at 8:00am

Don,

I have actually given this some thought over the past few days. (Duh!) Well, anyway, it goes something like this in my internal dialogue: After all, what has the Republican party done for me lately? They didn't stop abortions during Nixon's admin, nor Ford, nor Bush 1, nor Bush 2. They allowed Congress to get taken over by Democrats which triggered the current financial mess. Balanced Budget? Hah! Republicans got into power and became fat cats and big spenders who got off message real quick. But if Democratic candidate Obama wins, he appoints SC judges who will last the remainder of my life and That'll make the Warren court look conservative. In a NPR interview back in 2000, I think it was, Obama spoke of using the courts to redistribute wealth.

But then, again, if we were in a truly biblical economy and instituted Jubilee, wouldn't that redistribute wealth also? And you cannot end abortion totally by fiat anyway. You end it one person at a time repenting and being converted and filled with the Spirit and in relationship to the Father and the Kingdom. What follows afterward socially and politically is consequence.

Consequence is something that needs the precedents first. Can we envision America repenting as a nation?

But, ya gotta vote for somebody! Right? If only the Republicans had run Colin Powell and Sarah Palin. That would have made everybody happy, right?

I fear that all we ever had was just the "appearance of influence".

Steve C.

Permalink Reply by EROPPER on October 30, 2008 at 8:28am

Unfortunately most people, (including people on this board) seem to think that there are only 2 choices to vote for........this is exactly what the media wants us all to think..........there are going to be other people to vote for on the ballot next Tuesday..........(Libertarian, Constitution and Green Parties, just to name a few)

Permalink Reply by Marshall Diakon on October 30, 2008 at 10:51am

  Blessings, brother Rick. No problem in exploring further. May the Spirit open eyes wide.

   you have written: "You said, 'The asserted "power" or permission to depose leaders...' And my question is, 'Who are the leaders?'"

  "leaders" meaning roughly "rulers"; those with genuine authority? And, do the people actually wield authority (as leaders) in/for the authority of government in the United States?

  We know that it is God who decides who will rule, for how long, where, and when/how their rule will begin and how it will end. So then, how can we imagine that we (the people) actually can put someone we want in office, change written law, or vote ourselves some favors? Ahhhh... many have fallen for the ruse that their vote changes things, while it cannot change anything because we are not stronger than God. Even if someone should still think himself able to depose a ruler...

  Let's look at the obvious facts. Those called "Christians" do not vote with one mind or for one party. Much effort has been put to see that they might, but, it won't happen because God has sent a spirit of confusion among them to keep them from joining hands in what is so obviously arrogance and defended rebellion on their part. Just peek through some of the replies for this thread... do you see how oblivious many have become to the deception they are engaged in? Year after year, each one employing the force of will by their own understanding to move God's hand.

  Rick, my youth was spent in New Hampshire, among people who will promptly toss you in the Bay just for trying to tax them (there is no State income tax or general sales tax in New Hampshire to this day).

  The present legacy? In our participation with rebellious American citizens, we are by example training our children to be rebels; to reach (fight) for what they want, and to pilfer time and effort attempting to control things that belong to God. It does seem rather morbid, as fools and rebels die in their sins. We well know, unchecked rebellion will quickly form us, with our children, into enemies of God.


      In the service of the Living, Loving God,
          Marshall Diakon

Permalink Reply by Kriston Couchey on October 30, 2008 at 11:09am

Al,

I am not a supporter of either canidate for US president, But I do know a little bit about Kenya's Christians. They are very much TRIBE oriented, in other words Which tirbe is Obamas family from?, and which tribe is this Pastors from? These cast suspicion in Kenya, and there is even bloodshed in the last couple years over tribe affiliation.

The Lord had me address a church in Kenya once regarding thier NOT reaching out to other tribes and only their own people. Don't believe everything you hear from one group of people. I am sure there was no intent to do evil in this man's writing, it's just a mindset we all have to fight that seperates us over doctrine, politics, race, etc.

Kris

Al Silvestri said:

An African Pastor's Uncomfortable Warning to America
Mbijiwe Mwenda says we are being naive to ignore Barack Obama’s ties to a dangerous Kenyan politician.

Mbijiwe Mwenda is a voice crying in the wilderness—from the other side of the world.


The Kenyan pastor... , does not have a voice on CNN or Fox News. But he has been warning Christians during a recent visit to the United States that more is at stake in the 2008 election than anyone supposed.

“Many Americans do not seem to realize the price that has been paid for your freedom,” Mwenda says. “I am afraid we are about to lose the America we have known in the past—the America that has been a hope for the world.”

“Democratic presidential challenger Barack Obama has a cozy relationship with Raila Odinga, an avowed Marxist politician who now serves as Kenya’s prime minister.”

Mwenda’s main concern: That Democratic presidential challenger Barack Obama has a cozy relationship with Raila Odinga, an avowed Marxist politician who now serves as Kenya’s prime minister. Obama, who made taxpayer-funded visits to Kenya in 2004, 2005 and 2006, campaigned for Odinga in 2006.


During public appearances in Kenya, Odinga introduced Obama as his cousin. But later a family member denied that claim, saying that Odinga and Obama’s father, Barack Obama Sr., simply came from the same village. Both Obama Sr. and Odinga are from the Luo tribe, Kenya’s third largest.

When Odinga ran for president of Kenya last year and lost by a slim margin, tribal violence erupted amid claims of voter fraud. About 150,000 people died (many were killed in machete attacks), hundreds of churches were burned and 600,000 villagers were displaced. The international community had to broker a peace deal, allowing Odinga to serve as prime minister while his opponent, Mwai Kibaki, was named president.

Today, Odinga hopes that Obama will win the White House on Nov. 4 to boost support for his bid to become president of Kenya in 2012.

Pastor Mwenda says he is amazed that Americans don’t seem concerned that Obama is tied to Odinga. He rattled off a list of facts that Charisma has verified:

· Odinga was trained in communist ideology in Europe and holds Marxist views. “He even named his son Fidel Castro,” Mwenda says.
· He has obvious ties to Muslim interests and even received funding for his presidential campaign from Libya. Although he officially claims to be an Anglican, Mwenda says, “[Odinga] has been very sympathetic to Muslims and some say he is a Muslim secretly.”
· Odinga fits in nicely with Arab leaders’ plans for Africa. When they convened in Nigeria in 2001, they released a statement indicating that Kenya is to play a key role in spreading Islam throughout southern Africa. Says Mwenda: “Odinga is a dangerous man. A dictator.”
· Odinga has promised to enact Sharia law in “Muslim declared regions” of Kenya—meaning that pork would be outlawed, women could not drive and crimes would be punished according to Islamic tradition.

So why did Obama campaign for Odinga? Independent journalists around the world have been asking that question since 2006. Paula Abeles of African Press International wrote in August: “Clearly Obama campaigned for someone who is corrupt, ruthless and has financial ties to terrorists. … Senator Obama’s actions—intentional or not—were in direct conflict with the efforts and interests of U.S. national security.”

Many Kenyans are proud that a son of Kenya has a shot at the White House. But Kenya’s evangelical Christians are less enthusiastic. Like Mwenda, many of them are also troubled that Obama’s paternal grandmother has publicly stated that she sacrifices chickens and pours libations daily when praying for Obama to win the election. “She has been doing this since the [Democratic] primaries,” Mwenda says.

“Something is about to go wrong in your country,” Mwenda warned me.

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on October 30, 2008 at 1:42pm

I used the link to see a refutation to the claim that Sean made:

Obama supports Khalidi and is friends with Khalidi.

According to the linked article, that claim is a false claim.

Shalom, Dena

Rick Knock said:

Dena said:
I'm likely to vote for neither Obama nor McCain, but I really dislike false claims about either:
http://fightthesmears.com/articles/24/KhalidiSmear?source=sem-pm-ft...
End Quote

Dena,

Which were you saying was a false claim? The post you replied to, or the Obama ad you linked to? Thanks.

God Bless!

Rick

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