Could A Barack Obama Presidency Be A Blessing in Disguse for American Evangelicals?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Brother_Jonathan on November 1, 2008 at 1:18pm

I recall a conversation between Samuel and our Father in 1 Samuel 8:14-21
4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, "You are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have."
6 But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do."
10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."
19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. "No!" they said. "We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles."
21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. 22 The LORD answered, "Listen to them and give them a king."

Permalink Reply by Brother_Jonathan on November 1, 2008 at 1:35pm

Amen Brother Rick! You ask a truthful question and may the words I share with you find a place in your heart.
We are chosen in this world to not get out of it but to not be of it. He desires vessels in this world to carry out His will. Which requires us to be in contact with those who don't know the Lord... such as liars, adulterers, thieves, homosexuals, etc.... of this world but only to abstain from such who claim to be a brother in the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13). We build up by lifting up Christ in our living because He is the one who draws all man. We are the light so the matter of our living is more prevalent than how loud we are.

We are to live in this nation as we are not of it but in it. However, we live expressing Christ in His humanity and His holiness. Therefore, we are a unique people. The problem is we don't hate this world. We are confident that we can pick out the good fruits from the evil fruits not realizing they both come from the same tree. You can try to eat the good fruits of politics to voice out the concerns of Christians but is that what Christ has called us to do? However, we have programmed by religion to empower it by involving ourselves in politics. We first must realize that religion is not of Christ and that we have been programmed. Therefore we must die and live in the resurrected life.
We are not to fall into the error of separating ourselves from the world by building our own little "Christian" community because that is to take ourselves away from the work of God. His desire is to turn many away from death and to Life in Him but He is restricted to working through His vessels... the church. We separate ourselves from the world (the systems of man that dominates the earth and God's creations) but we 'go' to the nations (the people) and testify of Christ!

Here is a quick practical scenario. You are committed to voting for McCain and you meet someone who is seeking Christ and has an Obama sticker on their shirt. Is this the matter of speaking who the best King for the United States or who is the King of Kings? If we give our opinions... it will only detract us from who we are to testify of and that is Christ Jesus our King! However, we can't do this while we're eating from the wrong tree. Eat from the Tree of Life and that will answer and bear witness to those who seek Christ regardless if they're a liberal, conservative, fascist, communist, anarchist, socialist.... because the Spirit speaks to the heart of man... not to the mind of man.

May the Lord bless you brother!

Brother Jonathan



Rick Knock said:

Brother_Jonathan said:

I pray that we discern that the Lord has asked us to build His Kingdom... none other. We are in the world but not of the world. Therefore we aren't called to build up this world of which has been judged but to build up His Kingdom so that we may be ready to receive Him in at His return

Hi Brother_Jonathan,

I agree. We are to build HIS Kingdom. But my question is, to what extent are we to care for those who are not yet a part of His Kingdom? And to what extent can/does caring for them include using all that we've been given, including our vote and our voice?

I'm not at all worried about world events or about who the next president will be. I trust that God is sovereign over all. I am a bit concerned though about any idea that says that as followers of Christ we're to separate ourselves into our own little God Club and not concern ourselves about the lives of those around us. I see voting as only one of the many resources that God has entrusted to us.

God Bless!

Rick

Permalink Reply by Kriston Couchey on November 1, 2008 at 2:15pm

Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within you. Meaning this: our focus as believers is to see Christ formed in each other. Earthly governments are simply manifestations of the state of the peoples hearts. We focus on changing the hearts, not the externals. The externals follow the inward change. Many want to legislate change and have pinned thier hopes in political power and ideals. What a shame.

The kingdom of God is this, His nature and His authority expressed through people on the earth.

Kriston

Permalink Reply by Kriston Couchey on November 1, 2008 at 4:17pm

Rick,

Too many confused me with a woman. That is not a bad thing, except i don't want to continue the charade too long, i am not trying to pretend. I love to see how I am reacted to by men when they think I am a woman posting. I have had some talk down to me. It must be hard to be discriminated against like that, and I guess in a small way I see it now becuase of how others have done it to me mistakenly. I pray I never do that to women, but treat them with equal respect....

Kris

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on November 1, 2008 at 4:38pm

I haven't yet read others' reactions to your post, Steven, but I have to say that I'm with you (ahhh, the kiss of death on this forum!).

The problem is we follow a traditional rendering of Jesus ... I believe it causes us to miss the real Jesus, just as the Pharisees missed the real Jesus ... the traditions of men blinded them, and they blind us.

Fortunately, Jesus knows how to open ALL of our blind eyes ... but it seems He only did so (then), when folks asked to have their eyes opened... maybe it's still the same way? I believe, in His mercy, He will orchestrate circumstances that will bring us to the point where we will ask (if not beg!) Him to open our eyes ... when the things we believe are causing us too much pain (it's like going to the dentist -- some of us don't go there 'til we're in agony, LOL!).

Pain is our friend...! ;)

Ok, off to see whether folks are gathering stones or wood for the fire...! ;)

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Steven McDade said:

Ok, here I go,

The problem I have with both choices is that they both still want to use "military force" to bring peace to the world.
This in my opinion is WRONG! We are all made in the image of God, so why would we want to "kill" God.

Also, there is this matter of the "bail out" that both the repbulicans and demos, which I hold "membership" in, that really doesn't help the economy. I think the early disciples got it right when they shared everything that they had.

Have you read "Pagan Christianity"? Frank points out that when Christianity became a national religion that the vision of the Kingdom changed from living life for God to accepting Jesus Christ as lord and savior. Jesus never said to "accept him." He showed us a new way to live. So let the election happen. Live life as Jesus did.
For those of you who are troubled by gay rights, remember that women and blacks at one time had the same stigmata thrown on them.
Now here's the rebel in me... Gays have the same rights as all of us! There are ways to use the law to make sure that they are treated with love and respect. We have to remember that Jesus is never quoted about homosexual acts. In fact, I believe that he would be hanging out with them, because most gay people I know, have alot of fun!

The most important issue of Jesus' day was "The Kingdom of God is here."
Is God not here now? Are we who are aware of this willing to love unconditionally? Are we who claim to follow Jesus willing to not vote? Are we who become more and more like Jesus willing to die for His message?

So if you vote, do it!
I did, and I now regret it! I still feel that "Country First" sounds like Nazi Germany. I think that any country or it's people that think they are better than others are stupid and arrogant and will cause more trouble than it's worth.

It's time for Jesus followers to quit being part of a political party! WE need to start acting more like Christ. Point out to those "in charge" that they are being stupid. They say they care about ALL of us. But they care more about the system that is in place.

Sorry to sound so angry, but I feel that I'm right in this opinion. This comes from the love I have for people, no matter what their opinions. When I get this way, I feel Jesus and our Father's sadness over our fighting about who is righter with them.

How can we say that money, voting, a republic, a democracy, can even compare to knowing and serving God?

I'm going to challenge you and myself right now:

Let's agree to stop fueling the "machine" of Washington DC and start doing what Jesus started over 2000 years ago.
Really read the four Gospels. Find out what Jesus' plan was. Let's take Jesus at his word. Let's put Jesus back in charge of the church! Put Jesus in charge of you!
We have to surrender ALL of our ways, including politics, to Father, and use the model of Jesus' leadership and love to make the change that we really need.
Be Jesus today to all you meet.
We can do this. I know we can, because it is the will of God!

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on November 1, 2008 at 4:44pm

As one who fell for it, and who called you "sister", I'm rolling...!

tooooo funny!

And, insightful. Yes, unless you've been a woman (or played one on a discussion forum!), you can't know what it's like to be maligned, both overtly and covertly ... misogyny runs deep, particularly in the Church.

Bless you for your desire to respect women ... yes, we thrive on love, but we do also deserve respect, just for being made in the image of God, as are men.

May we all love and respect (or respect and love) each other...

(BTW, me calling you a "sister" was a form of high praise indeed...!) ;)

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kriston Couchey said:

Rick,

Too many confused me with a woman. That is not a bad thing, except i don't want to continue the charade too long, i am not trying to pretend. I love to see how I am reacted to by men when they think I am a woman posting. I have had some talk down to me. It must be hard to be discriminated against like that, and I guess in a small way I see it now becuase of how others have done it to me mistakenly. I pray I never do that to women, but treat them with equal respect....

Kris

Permalink Reply by Marshall Diakon on November 1, 2008 at 5:10pm

  brother Rick,

  I'm thanking God to read this post of yours, as it helps me understand how you have in mind to help others by attempting to use opportunities in the world as a means to that end.

    you have written:
  "But my question is, to what extent are we to care for those who are not yet a part of His Kingdom?"

  Worth comprehending. I know that the ekklesia (the real; not the fake, formal or institutional) has most often received each person's need, one person or family at a time. It seems difficult to care for people in the world by firing a broad shot of help... such as, if we were to give $500 to everyone in our city, and not see each one of their faces in the giving, what help would we have rendered?



Rick Knock said:

Brother_Jonathan said:

I pray that we discern that the Lord has asked us to build His Kingdom... none other. We are in the world but not of the world. Therefore we aren't called to build up this world of which has been judged but to build up His Kingdom so that we may be ready to receive Him in at His return

Hi Brother_Jonathan,

I agree. We are to build HIS Kingdom. But my question is, to what extent are we to care for those who are not yet a part of His Kingdom? And to what extent can/does caring for them include using all that we've been given, including our vote and our voice?

I'm not at all worried about world events or about who the next president will be. I trust that God is sovereign over all. I am a bit concerned though about any idea that says that as followers of Christ we're to separate ourselves into our own little God Club and not concern ourselves about the lives of those around us. I see voting as only one of the many resources that God has entrusted to us.

God Bless!

Rick

Permalink Reply by Bill Benninghoff on November 2, 2008 at 12:36am

Steven,

Thanks for making this point about the use of military force...I have been wrestling with the questions of war and peace myself recently...Jesus said blessed are the peacemakers, and He said that we are to love our enemies...I wonder is this only applicable to us as individuals, or did He mean it to apply to nations as well in their foreign policy?

I suppose one could argue that if any nation actually implemented pacifism as part of their foreign policy that they might not exist as a nation very long in our world!...The United States policy for the past 60 years has been that the best way to keep the peace is by having a strong military and being ready to go to war when our perceived "national interests" are threatened....Of course what those "national interests" are seems to be dependent on the viewpoint of whatever administration is currently in power in America. Our presidential administrations since the 1950's have gradually increased our military presence around the world all in the name of "protecting our national interests." Lately it seems like our "defense department" is "protecting our national interests" by waging wars in other two other countries half a world away. Maybe we should call them our "war department" rather than our "defense department."

The prophet Isaiah did write about a time when the nations will turn their weapons into plowshares and "learn war no more." (Isaiah 2:4) Is that a hope only to be relegated to the Millenium (the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth) ? Even if that is only for the Millenium, should we recognize it as being the desire of God and work for it now? How do we really become a "peacemaker" nation if that is an appropriate application of Jesus' teaching? I realize this is a rabbit trail from the main discussion here about Obama, so maybe we can start a new discussion thread on this....

Bill

Steven McDade said:

Ok, here I go,
The problem I have with both choices is that they both still want to use "military force" to bring peace to the world. This in my opinion is WRONG! We are all made in the image of God, so why would we want to "kill" God. Also, there is this matter of the "bail out" that both the repbulicans and demos, which I hold "membership" in, that really doesn't help the economy. I think the early disciples got it right when they shared everything that they had.

Have you read "Pagan Christianity"? Frank points out that when Christianity became a national religion that the vision of the Kingdom changed from living life for God to accepting Jesus Christ as lord and savior. Jesus never said to "accept him." He showed us a new way to live. So let the election happen. Live life as Jesus did.
For those of you who are troubled by gay rights, remember that women and blacks at one time had the same stigmata thrown on them.
Now here's the rebel in me... Gays have the same rights as all of us! There are ways to use the law to make sure that they are treated with love and respect. We have to remember that Jesus is never quoted about homosexual acts. In fact, I believe that he would be hanging out with them, because most gay people I know, have alot of fun!

The most important issue of Jesus' day was "The Kingdom of God is here."
Is God not here now? Are we who are aware of this willing to love unconditionally? Are we who claim to follow Jesus willing to not vote? Are we who become more and more like Jesus willing to die for His message?

So if you vote, do it!
I did, and I now regret it! I still feel that "Country First" sounds like Nazi Germany. I think that any country or it's people that think they are better than others are stupid and arrogant and will cause more trouble than it's worth.

It's time for Jesus followers to quit being part of a political party! WE need to start acting more like Christ. Point out to those "in charge" that they are being stupid. They say they care about ALL of us. But they care more about the system that is in place.

Sorry to sound so angry, but I feel that I'm right in this opinion. This comes from the love I have for people, no matter what their opinions. When I get this way, I feel Jesus and our Father's sadness over our fighting about who is righter with them.

How can we say that money, voting, a republic, a democracy, can even compare to knowing and serving God?

I'm going to challenge you and myself right now:

Let's agree to stop fueling the "machine" of Washington DC and start doing what Jesus started over 2000 years ago.
Really read the four Gospels. Find out what Jesus' plan was. Let's take Jesus at his word. Let's put Jesus back in charge of the church! Put Jesus in charge of you!
We have to surrender ALL of our ways, including politics, to Father, and use the model of Jesus' leadership and love to make the change that we really need.
Be Jesus today to all you meet.
We can do this. I know we can, because it is the will of God!

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on November 2, 2008 at 1:08pm

Excellent thoughts, Bill...!

(the rest is just bouncing off of your thoughts, and not directed at you ...!)

It seems we only heed the words of Jesus when it's convenient to do so, no?

Surely He couldn't mean that we're to love our enemies..? Surely He didn't understand the global complexities of our day, that make it "necessary" to use force to bring "peace"...!

Surely nationalism is more important than loving our global neighbors...!



I see that His Kingdom is here, now. Invisible and unobservable, but very much here and now. In our midst, within us, spiritual reality -- not something that can be seen with eyes of flesh (because He told us so - Luke 17:20).

So, what are we waiting for, in doing what He said we're to do in the Kingdom...?

Why are we waiting for something "observable"...?

I don't see a time in scripture that speaks of us iving in "limbo" -- between one covenant and the next ...

Shalom, Dena


Bill Benninghoff said:

Steven,

Thanks for making this point about the use of military force...I have been wrestling with the questions of war and peace myself recently...Jesus said blessed are the peacemakers, and He said that we are to love our enemies...I wonder is this only applicable to us as individuals, or did He mean it to apply to nations as well in their foreign policy?

I suppose one could argue that if any nation actually implemented pacifism as part of their foreign policy that they might not exist as a nation very long in our world!...The United States policy for the past 60 years has been that the best way to keep the peace is by having a strong military and being ready to go to war when our perceived "national interests" are threatened....Of course what those "national interests" are seems to be dependent on the viewpoint of whatever administration is currently in power in America. Our presidential administrations since the 1950's have gradually increased our military presence around the world all in the name of "protecting our national interests." Lately it seems like our "defense department" is "protecting our national interests" by waging wars in other two other countries half a world away. Maybe we should call them our "war department" rather than our "defense department."

The prophet Isaiah did write about a time when the nations will turn their weapons into plowshares and "learn war no more." (Isaiah 2:4) Is that a hope only to be relegated to the Millenium (the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth) ? Even if that is only for the Millenium, should we recognize it as being the desire of God and work for it now? How do we really become a "peacemaker" nation if that is an appropriate application of Jesus' teaching? I realize this is a rabbit trail from the main discussion here about Obama, so maybe we can start a new discussion thread on this....

Bill

Steven McDade said:

Ok, here I go,
The problem I have with both choices is that they both still want to use "military force" to bring peace to the world. This in my opinion is WRONG! We are all made in the image of God, so why would we want to "kill" God. Also, there is this matter of the "bail out" that both the repbulicans and demos, which I hold "membership" in, that really doesn't help the economy. I think the early disciples got it right when they shared everything that they had.

Have you read "Pagan Christianity"? Frank points out that when Christianity became a national religion that the vision of the Kingdom changed from living life for God to accepting Jesus Christ as lord and savior. Jesus never said to "accept him." He showed us a new way to live. So let the election happen. Live life as Jesus did.
For those of you who are troubled by gay rights, remember that women and blacks at one time had the same stigmata thrown on them.
Now here's the rebel in me... Gays have the same rights as all of us! There are ways to use the law to make sure that they are treated with love and respect. We have to remember that Jesus is never quoted about homosexual acts. In fact, I believe that he would be hanging out with them, because most gay people I know, have alot of fun!

The most important issue of Jesus' day was "The Kingdom of God is here."
Is God not here now? Are we who are aware of this willing to love unconditionally? Are we who claim to follow Jesus willing to not vote? Are we who become more and more like Jesus willing to die for His message?

So if you vote, do it!
I did, and I now regret it! I still feel that "Country First" sounds like Nazi Germany. I think that any country or it's people that think they are better than others are stupid and arrogant and will cause more trouble than it's worth.

It's time for Jesus followers to quit being part of a political party! WE need to start acting more like Christ. Point out to those "in charge" that they are being stupid. They say they care about ALL of us. But they care more about the system that is in place.

Sorry to sound so angry, but I feel that I'm right in this opinion. This comes from the love I have for people, no matter what their opinions. When I get this way, I feel Jesus and our Father's sadness over our fighting about who is righter with them.

How can we say that money, voting, a republic, a democracy, can even compare to knowing and serving God?

I'm going to challenge you and myself right now:

Let's agree to stop fueling the "machine" of Washington DC and start doing what Jesus started over 2000 years ago.
Really read the four Gospels. Find out what Jesus' plan was. Let's take Jesus at his word. Let's put Jesus back in charge of the church! Put Jesus in charge of you!
We have to surrender ALL of our ways, including politics, to Father, and use the model of Jesus' leadership and love to make the change that we really need.
Be Jesus today to all you meet.
We can do this. I know we can, because it is the will of God!

Permalink Reply by Lee Smith on November 2, 2008 at 1:42pm

Rick , you got a big Ditto from me...I just need to over come the fear factor, being a small business man..hahaha. lee

Rick Knock said:

I have an overwhelming sense of peace over this election, unlike anything I've ever experienced during any other election season. I know what seems to be at stake, but I sense God's sovereign hand at work, and though I don't know what He's up to I trust Him completely.

God Bless!

Rick

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on November 2, 2008 at 5:05pm

Thanks for sharing another option, Rick ... I'd love to see the 2-party stranglehold lifted off of our election process.

Shalom, Dena

Rick said:

In time, I pray Christians will realize the Republican Party is no more "christian" than the Democratic Party. Remove the partisan blinders and really look at the issues in which the Republican Party has supported Christian causes. It is pretty hard to actually find any.
I would encourage everyone to look at the Constitution Party.

Yes, I understand they will not win the presidential election. However, state elections are being won by Constitution Party candidates. It is only a matter of time before they start winning positions in Federal House and Senate races.

Permalink Reply by Loren Bailor on November 2, 2008 at 5:51pm

Daniel & Heather said:

If I were to say that Israel is occupying Palestinians, would that mean that I want your death and the death of your people too?.... I think recognizing that Jesus is not a Republican, nor "Pro-America", brings us to the realization that Jesus isn't in the business of defending any human government or state, even Israel. We who follow Christ should understand who the true descendants of Abraham are...

Daniel

Sean Steckbeck said:

I live in Israel, Obama supports Khalidi and is friends with Khalidi.

The LA Times is not releasing a dinner Obama had with Khalidi.
Khalidi served in Beirut with the PLO when my country was fighting the PLO in Lebanon.
Many Lebanese Christians were killed by the PLO occupying forces, and so was my wife's brother killed in Beirut by the PLO who served in the IDF (my wife is a native Israeli).
Obama supports someone who had a role in the death of my wife's brother she was very close to.

Khalidi was in Beirut the same year my wife's brother died supporting the people who killed him.
My wife's brother in the IDF (Israeli Army) was in Beirut to help the Lebanese from the occupying PLO invaders into Lebanon.

The PLO was a terrorist org. when Khalidi was a part of it in Beirut.

Obama is also quoted in a leak quote from this video as saying Israel is occupying Palestinians and is creating apartheid.

Sorry, as an Israeli citizen.... Obama wants my death and the death of my people.

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