WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON NOT "MEETING" AT ALL?

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Permalink Reply by Katie Driver on September 10, 2008 at 12:34pm

Yup, and we use the term "fluid church" or just taking the church "us" where ever we go and where two or more are gathered, He is there with us and then there is communion and fellowship. Most of what we have lived for the past 15 years has been this fluid lifestyle.
Often times Jesus met in larger fellowship groups as when He ministered on the Mount or spoke to the multitudes and those are wonderful times of experiencing the the power of many together in unity and strength of purpose. We do this when we gather in conferences, regional meetings, etc. I love these times and they strengthen our purposes together as ONE. Then, we see He had "medium" sized group gathering like at the homes of various persons He was invited to. We have these when we meet in each others homes at various times for simple church, prayer groups and initiatives, trainings and KIngdom efforts that have many participants, etc. Some of this is spontaneous, bimonthly, monthly, yearly - basically directed by the Spirit and someone taking the initiative to gather people. Then, the smaller, more "lifestyle" fellowship of outings, dinners, camping, gatherings in coffee shops, parks, bars, over the phone, through emails, simple walks, spontaneous prayer and ministry, crisis's of life.......you get the picture. Jesus "lived" his faith 24/7 with those around him. Sometimes what they did changed, conversations and interactions "evolved" as the Father initiated His purposes.
It is so freeing to live by the Spirit, and not by meetings. It is so liberating to not have to plan out our every strategy but to trust Him to use our availability and obedience to achieve His purposes for us and those we are called to touch each day. The wonder of seeing Him move in different contexts raises our faith and releases us from the constraints we have often placed upon ourselves because of the "boxes" we like to function in.
Fellowship in the Spirit comes from our availability to give ourselves to intimacy with Jesus and fellowship with the Body of Christ comes from making ourselves available to each other - whatever the context of that fellowship.
I love the freedom of being the church vs "doing church"...........

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Permalink Reply by Lisa J on September 10, 2008 at 1:10pm

This is also where we are at right now. We were gathering on a weekly basis with 3-4 families, but one of the couples temporarily moved out of town for work reasons, so the regular gatherings kind of fell by the wayside. Now we just get together with others for fellowship as much as possible...over a meal, Starbucks, lunch, etc. We are enjoying the freedom that this brings, but also miss some aspects of gathering regularly as a larger group. We never planned out our meetings though, except for when, where and food :)
We let Jesus lead the gathering where ever He wanted it to go...or not go.
So I agree with you both (Katie & Deb) but I also enjoy gathering regularly as long as there is no agenda whatsoever. I think sometimes you can get caught in the paradigm of, "We should be doing X when we get together" which is simply a remnant of old thought patterns from the IC.

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Permalink Reply by konti on September 11, 2008 at 7:50am

Very interesting topic! Thank you guys for your insight. Before I give my own opinion I would like to introduce myself in short. I left organized church 8 years ago, if I'm not wrong. For many years I have been alone, always waiting on the Lord to bring brothers and sisters who would want to fellowship in an informal way. A couple of years ago the Lord brought to me a brother with the same passion and only lately, some 3-4 people are gathering with us. They don't seem to have really understood what the church is like, since they have not completely left IC, but they feel good and free in our fellowship.

Now to the topic. There have been meetings without any particular agenda and we could talk for hours for anything but Christ, or/and spiritual matters. Only after two or more hours, some one would spontaneously throw a sparkle and than we would find ourselves not able to stop our praisings and thanksgivings to the Lord.

There have been meetings at times with nothing spiritual at all however, only to leave without feeling fed by the Lord at all. What I have seen from this little experience is that when we meet together before the Lord and make Him our Leader, without the need of other human leaders, it is good that each one of us bring something to the meeting, which means that sometimes it is needed a beforehand prepearance. If each one of us bring something, may be the Lord will not multiply it at all and the meeting/fellowship will end in no more than 20-30 minutes, but there is a high chance that the Lord will multiply what everyone of us would bring, like He did with the bread and the fish for the crowds.

So, I think that it is good that we encourage one onother to bring something to the next meeting. This has nothing to do with agendas or schedules. I think it has to do with the priesthood of all believers. All the brothers and sisters are responsible for the meetings. Not only one or two, neither none of us.

With love,
konti

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Permalink Reply by Laura S on September 11, 2008 at 8:37am

This is precisely the sort of question I want to discuss here and elsewhere. We and our friends have found simply living, surviving and walking with the Lord in multitudes of difficulties enough. We text, email, pop in for coffee, encourage one another, pray each other through horrible situations, and only sometimes felt led to 'meet' regularly for worship/study/prayer---only for a season.

Maybe we don't meet because we don't know any better? I read Frank Viola's pamphlet on House to House http://www.ptmin.org/findingchurch.pdf which showed me that from his point of view we weren't church, we needed an apostle (I'm 'wrong' again...) but MORE interestingly, I was struck by WHY they gather----to see Jesus mainifest corporately amongst them. Wow. What could God's actual vision be for His body on earth?

Maybe we (us) don't meet in unthinking reaction to the MANY manipulating people/leader types who have tried to build their own ministries without caring about the very real life situations we all walk through---ie one person recently tried to emotionally blackmail my friend (who I brought to the Lord) to be in her church, which requires lots of time/commitment when my friend faces horrendous family challenges continually---real care and on-going-walking together was not a strong point of the many 'churches' I belonged to, and most of the people I know face (bravely and courageously) huge, on going life battles

But, in light of Frank Viola and others' experience of 'church' is it time for us to rethink, and think that there might be another reason to attempt again to be a manifest church (without leadership structure for us, we feel very strongly about that)----what does Jesus want to manifest in his corporate body? Has He got a bigger vision than we have yet seen? Or should we stay the way we are, a 'church' of friends who love each other and reach out to our neighbours in love and compassion not to build our own 'thing' but to help them find Jesus, and hope in this dark season in our dark world.

Thoughts anybody?
I just noticed the many posts above this :)

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Permalink Reply by Erin Wilson on September 11, 2008 at 9:50am

My husband and I have been out of IC for 10 years. We have popped in and out a couple of times trying to figure out if the Lord changed His mind about coming out. But He didn't. You see we are musicians. I grew up in an Assembly of God church; Grandfather a 35-year veteran of the A/G, and my dad was a pastor for years during my growing up. I was brought up to do worship and loved it. I knew early on it was my passion and purpose. Yet in 1994 during my senior year in High School, my dad disbanded the church into house churches and would never again pastor.

We have been experimenting with house church, Friday night worship nights, simple church, just hanging out and making friends for the past 10 years. Overall I do believe that church is a simple expression of who we are in Christ, and as we become more like Christ we can reach those who don't yet know about His Kingdom. I have always felt that being a Christian is as simple as being in a family, a functional family that loves unconditionally and heals our wounds and gives us the power to be free from demonic oppression.

LAURA S brings up an interesting point, that when we are together with the body that it manifests Jesus. We have all experienced the ecstasy of corporate, spirit-lead worship where the presence of God is tangible. Our lives are changed by it and parts of our soul are healed by it. To truly touch the heavenly realms, a place full of worship, is what I desire.

We have yet to find God's path for our music in this new life outside of the IC. We know from experience that weekly meetings will always fall into formality. Is there a place in simple/family church living for expressions of worship beyond a kum-by-ya moment?

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Permalink Reply by Lisa J on September 11, 2008 at 9:50am

Wow, Deb....you took the words right out of my mouth! It is so encouraging to find other believers who really "get it"!

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Permalink Reply by Katie Driver on September 11, 2008 at 11:22am

Erin, I will share a path I walked in regards to your passion to worship in a form that is corporate and musical ( I say that cause I agree with Deb that it is a lifestyle, and not only expressed in "music") . Maybe it will encourage you as you walk your own path.

I do believe God does put into some in the Body a desire to create music, lead others into that expression and release a gifting they have been given to "edify" , "encourage" and "exhort". To NOT release that gift, as with any of the gifts He gives us, can be frustrating and painful. David didn't care what he looked like or who disaproved when he danced and worshiped his love to the Lord. He just felt the compulsion to WORSHIP and release that expression of thankfulness to the Lord. God does want us to experience the release of ALL the gifts He has given us and provides ways to do so. Sometimes they surprise us or don't fit into what we expect.

I walked through that for many years - taking the opportunities given from time to time to lead worship gatherings in various types of small group fellowships but still feeling I was not giving away and using what had been given to me. I saw the Lord open up some doors to lead worship at various outreach ministries that some of the traditional churches were doing in the area (that I had maintained good connections with over the years).
These outreaches met weekly, or monthly or sometimes here and there but they were open doors for me to use my desire and gift AND build relationships with those who were both unchurched, churched but open to simple church, and those staying within traditional church but having a desire to be MISSIONAL.....it was great!

I am no longer doing this, however I am grateful for those years and the relationships I have in my life through them. Many of those relationships I have sown organic/simple church principles in and many of those people have started simple churches, missional outreaches etc. of their own. Some have stayed in traditional church, some left it, some flow freely back and forth.

I would not have chosen "going back to egypt" to use one of the gifts the Lord gave me, but He sure showed me once again, how big and diverse the Body is and how He uses any and all that want to be used......regardless of the form they choose to function in.

Maybe the Lord will show you a place you have never considered in releasing your gift AND to sow your heart for simple church in, maybe He will just open up more opportunities to worship in HC or other gatherings, maybe even gathering others like yourself to spend a weekend in artistic worship or any other venue He may lead you to. I do know this, ...that He will find you opportunities to use what He has given you and for you to feel the satisfaction and honor of doing so.

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Permalink Reply by Robin Yeldell on September 11, 2008 at 11:53am

I hosted a simple church from Sep 06 to Jul 08. I decided to end the regular meeting at our house because I sense the Lord leading me to that. All the folks that attended were a part of other "churches", so I didn't feel like anyone was left twisting in the wind.

I've asked this question often over the last two years (whether regular meetings are a necessary part of kingdom life). I'm coming to the conclusion that it is not necessary for the spiritually connected and mature because they are in regular fellowship without needing regular meetings. However, for those who are young in the faith, perhaps undisciplined, and not being discipled by a mature believer, I think regular meetings are quite beneficial.

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Permalink Reply by John Lunt on September 12, 2008 at 5:29am

I could be wrong, but I believe there may be two ditches. One we are all familiar with, the one with all the institutional church settings, the minutely planned out meeting, and all of that.

I am concerned though if there is not regular meeting, that other things get missed. In our busy lives, if something isn't a priority, it doesn't get done.

I believe for some, it is entirely possible for them to not have a regular gathering and they will stay connected with people they are walking with. For others, I'm not so sure. I have a feeling they would simply drift away.

Part of that has to do with maturity in Christ. I've not tried the concept of not being part of a regular gathering. So I'm asking some questions of those who are in that situation.

Do you find yourself drifting at all in your spiritual walk? Is it any more or any less than when you were part of a regular gathering?

Do you interact with new believers and walk along side them more or less than when you were part of a regular gathering. Our walk with Christ isn't all about us - it's about the Kingdom.

Do you give as much or as regularly in the Kingdom of God as when you were part of a regular gathering. This doesn't have to be formal "tithe and offering" giving, but it could be giving to the poor, a brother or sister in need, etc.

Do you celebrate the Lord's supper with other believers?

When you are struggling do you have an easier or harder time reaching out to other believers for help?

Do you have more - or fewer believers reaching out to you when you are struggling?

Are you doing more or less to advance the Kingdom? It is okay if it's different, but would you say that you are more or less about your Father's business?

Please don't read this as anything about putting anyone on the defensive. I've been wrestling with the What is Church and how structures or unstructured should it be question for several months myself. I'm just asking questions for those who have been where I haven't been.

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Permalink Reply by Marti on September 12, 2008 at 6:02am

Count us as another group of families that hang out and share Life regularly, but without scheduled meetings or agendas. We left the old system seven years ago, and tried holding house church meetings for about 2 years. It was what we needed at the time - the time to talk and unload and debrief was invaluable. But the Life drifted away from it, and the meetings faded.

We then entered a very lonely, solitary time, with very little fellowship with anyone. I hated it, but it was also a necessary part of the process to find our relationship with Him, outside of our relationship with Him via a group of people.

About three years ago, we met some believers within an hour's radius. Another family that we had known since our college years moved back into the area - literally one mile down the street from us! We began to spend time together and develop friendships. We get together with the larger group - maybe 6-10 families, as we can... usually every 4-6 weeks, if not more often. We have an email chat group to share stuff daily. And those who are right here in town - we see them nearly daily for this or that... kids hanging out, having coffee, etc.

We've had more encouragement and growth in our lack of agenda than we ever had with the agenda. We occasionally do have something in particular in mind... a book we want to talk about, or someone who's going through some things, and we know we'd like to have time to share with them while we're all together.

The kids float in and out of our conversations. We nearly always eat. Often we're just chattering about light-hearted stuff, but invariably, someone starts talking about something they've read, or a situation they're in, and we end up sharing Life with one another while we're together. Everyone leaves encouraged and built up.

It's weird to think that the Holy Spirit really is big enough to meet everyone's needs without our having to step in and plan it, but He does. Amazing!

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Permalink Reply by Erin Wilson on September 12, 2008 at 6:18am

JOHN>>> What great questions! This is a great way to get honest about the church walk. This may get long so bare with me.

Do you find yourself drifting at all in your spiritual walk? Is it any more or any less than when you were part of a regular gathering? I find myself more mature, sure-footed. It takes real desire to seek out what the Holy Spirit is teaching me. So I have to devote the time to reading, listening to podcasts, gathering research from many different sources. For me I believe it is much easier to learn and commit concepts to memory and change my behavior because I can take things much slower. In IC we get a new concept, thought, sermon every week and sometimes on Wednesdays and you know what, God doesn't have us all growing at the same pace. We are in a variety if places in our walks. I believe that is God's master design for the human race. Last year, my husband and I went to a conference with Dr. Myles Monroe, who spoke about the kingdom. And for the six months following, we read all his books, listened to a bunch of his and other speakers CDs on the topic and we made some life changes based on the teaching. I find myself growing much more than when I was in IC.

Do you interact with new believers and walk along side them more or less than when you were part of a regular gathering. Our walk with Christ isn't all about us - it's about the Kingdom. Yes, I certainly agree with this. My husband is part of a real estate coaching program, that teaches people all over the country how to make money doing short sales. In this coaching program, he gets a new batch of students, between 12-20, every three months. In this group, there are every religion under the sun, even those who profess to be atheitis. Then we also do 10 day conferences four times a year. We have had many opportunities to step beside these folks in business and in their relationship with God, wherever they may be, believers or not and help direct them closer to God. We have a real estate friend in Central Florida that had walked away from God years ago and where we lost contact with them for two years. They are going through major marital problems right now and about a month ago, they called my husband up for help. He led them back into the Kingdom and we have been phone conferencing with them on healing for their marriage. So yes, we have CONSTANT interaction with all kinds of believers and have been used in major ways to impact others in the Kingdom.

Do you give as much or as regularly in the Kingdom of God as when you were part of a regular gathering. This doesn't have to be formal "tithe and offering" giving, but it could be giving to the poor, a brother or sister in need, etc. I really enjoy this question. I think we give according to what we have been given. We always give 10%, and then as we close real estate transactions in the month we determine how much above that we feel like God is asking us to sow into various things. We always try to give to those in need around us. So to answer this question approprietely, I think we give just as much as we did when we were in the IC, but now I know we listen more closely to the Holy Spirit and let Him direct, where, when and how. Instead of listening to the man behind the pupit asking for money for this and that. And now as I really think about it. I know that we are 100x more blessed as a result of our giving then we were in the IC. Yes God did bless us then but now and over the last year we are truly reaping the abundance of the pure giving that we have done outside the IC.

Do you celebrate the Lord's supper with other believers? We celebrate the Lord's supper every year at the Pilgrimage to Portal. This is a yearly gathering of over 100 house church folks and those who have experienced deliverance through a deliverance retreat at Bear Creek Ranch. We do a shabot dinner and communion. We have also done it at home with our children around the table.

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Permalink Reply by Erin Wilson on September 12, 2008 at 6:27am

CONTINUATION OF ABOVE...

When you are struggling do you have an easier or harder time reaching out to other believers for help? I find it is much easier because we have real relationships with other believers now. In the IC, it was a struggle just to get another couple to go out to dinner with us. Now we have relationships that we can call on, and they certainly call on us as well. And we are not limited to scheduled meetings to minister, we can minister in season and out.

Do you have more - or fewer believers reaching out to you when you are struggling? I find that I have more reaching out to me. When you don't have the time constraints of program after program, you have time be a friend and nurture friendships.

Are you doing more or less to advance the Kingdom? It is okay if it's different, but would you say that you are more or less about your Father's business? I believe we are certainly more about Father's business now, not just in ministering to others which is not the only thing God cares about. He cares about every aspect of our lives. Doing programs at an IC is NOT advancing the Kingdom. Being salt and light and reaching out advances the Kingdom.

WHAT GREAT QUESTIONS!! This really has solidified in my as I have answered these qusetions that the freedom granted by being outside the walls is priceless. It is for freedom that we have been set free.

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