Plumb Lines and Posturing
There has been much discussion on this board covering varying topics where it has been suggested that the Word (scriptures) is not the ultimate authority for faith, life and practice. One has even said that the plumb line for truth is Jesus Himself and stands above the scriptures as a rule and authority. This sounds very spiritual and even appealing. However, a simple question remains. Will Jesus himself, the Father, or the Holy Spirit, ever say something in opposition to the written word? If you hold to continuing revelation, then will any revelation stand against what has been already proposed in scripture?
Tags: God, authority, of, scriptures, word
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Permalink Reply by konti on -
Jesus, the Father or the Holy Spirit would never say something in opposition to the written word, but the problem is that many of us have a distorted view of the scriptures and thus, when the Holy Spirit would lead us to any direction, we would be confused since we might have been taught something quite different from how the Spirit wants to lead us.
Let me give a simple example. We have been taught that the church is a building we should go to every Sunday mornig. We have been taught that that building is the House of God, we have been taught that we should keep silent in that building called the house of God, and the list go on. The problem however is that everytime we go to the scriptures, without understanding it, we would wear our coloured glasses and would see the scriptures from that point of view, thus we would see in every page of it, the church buildings, the sunday services, etc, etc.
Brothers and sisters, Jesus Christ is the only true authority. Having said that, Jesus Christ would never say something against the written word, but many times it would go against our opinions and ideas of what the scriptures teach.
Let me give another example. The relegious leaders of Jesus'time were the one that knew the scriptures more than anyone. It was they however who failed to recognize Him through the scriptures.
Love,
konti
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Permalink Reply by Miguel on -
Certainly, any intellectual assent to the word without the spiritual life contained within is a hazard that any of us can and do fall into. But I suspect that many of us has it backwards. It is not our perception of the word that confuses; it is our perception of God, which gets confused. The Character of God is only determined by how well we understand what He said about His character is in the written word. Any apprehension of a God Characteristic that is not tested against the revealed word is just a speculation. Can anyone name one characteristic of God that is not in scripture? If someone declares that God has “X” characteristic and “X” is not verifiable in the word, then does He in fact, have that characteristic? One has said that God doesn’t change. This is true. But that idea or doctrine comes from where? It comes from the scriptures.
Our confusion in any teaching lies in what we have accepted without searching the scriptures to see if that very teaching is true. Jesus addressed this problem many times by saying “you have heard it said, but I say…”
Our colored glasses do not obscure our view of the scriptures; they obscure our view of God Himself. The scripture is the lens under the illumination of the Holy Spirit that we use to look through and see God clearly. The scriptures are the corrective lenses. “All scripture is God-breathed and is profitable for correction.” Those religious leaders who “knew” the scriptures didn’t know them in an intimate way, they only had intellectual assent to them and used them to forward their own agenda. There were those among the wise that did know the scriptures i.e. Nicodemus and ended up knowing Jesus as well.
Again, notice Jesus' words in John 5:38,39; "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life."
I sincerely appreciate everyone’s input and time and thought on this topic and pray that the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom.
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Permalink Reply by Suzette Lambert on -
In John 1:1 it says in the beginning was the Word - so Jesus is the Word - in Psalms 138:2 it says I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.
I guess I do not see Christ separate from His Word. If we try to seperate them we are in trouble. I think Jesus is the best to answer this in Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' 24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." 28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.
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Permalink Reply by Tammie on -
Except that no where in our authorized collection of scriptures does it call itself the Word let alone say it is the ultimate authority. We have a collection of scripture called the Bible that was authorized by the councils of church leaders some 300 years after Jesus died. When John wrote about Jesus being the Word he was not referring to the Bible or any scripture, he was referring to the LOGOS. No where in our authorized collection of scripture does it call itself the Word. Any place in the NT that speaks of scripture it is referring to the scriptures the Jewish folks were using at the time the author wrote it.
Having said all that... I love the Bible, it's my favorite book. It is God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
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Permalink Reply by Ken Stone on -
YES!
When He is the "Word made flesh" (Jn 1) how can we ever separate the two? His life was confirmation of all Father said; not only what He said, but also what He thought! Because "logos" (Grk. for Word) not only refers to something said, but also to the thought behind the Word.
So, if we want to know what Father thinks about any subject, we need to observe the life, teachings and works of Christ! The way we do so is to read the record of His life, teachings and works, inviting Holy Spirit to glorify Chirst by teaching us all things and guiding us into all truth. (Jn 14-16)
THIS is the foundation for the life that stands in the storm!
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Permalink Reply by Lisa J on -
I've got to agree with you both here. However, I also will say that the bible gives us additional insight and guidance as well.
Because of our time together, I make decisions about my husband based on our growing relationship. I wouldn’t think to make decisions based on letters that someone else wrote about him.
This is a great analogy...but I will say that the letters would give you great additional insight to things you may not have yet discovered personally and especially if it were early on in your relationship :)
"no where in our authorized collection of scriptures does it call itself the Word let alone say it is the ultimate authority"
and:
"Any place in the NT that speaks of scripture it is referring to the scriptures the Jewish folks were using at the time the author wrote it"
Also, very true...good point Tammie!
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Permalink Reply by konti on
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Thank you sisters for sharing your portion of the Lord. How poor would the church be if you were supposed to shut up in the church's meetings.
Love,
Konti
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Permalink Reply by Miguel on
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Martyn Lloyd-Jones said the following...
"We all therefore have to face this ultimate and final question: Do we accept the Bible as the Word of God, as the sole authority in all matters of faith and practice, or do we not? Is the whole of my thinking governed by Scripture, or do I come with my reason and pick and choose out of Scripture and sit in judgment upon it, putting myself and modern knowledge forward as the ultimate standard and authority? The issue is crystal clear. Do I accept Scripture as a revelation from God, or do I trust to speculation, human knowledge, human learning, human understanding and human reasons Or, putting it still more simply, Do I pin my faith to, and subject all my thinking to, what I read in the Bible? Or do I defer to modern knowledge, to modern learning, to what people think today, to what we know at this present time which was not known in the past? It is inevitable that we occupy one or the other of those two positions."
Which side do you fall on?
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Permalink Reply by Tammie on
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Martyn Lloyd-Jones said the following...
We all therefore have to face this ultimate and final question: Do we accept the Bible as the Word of God, as the sole authority in all matters of faith and practice, or do we not?
I accept the Bible for what it is and no more. Quite frankly it is my pet peeve when someone calls it "the Word of God" as if Jesus was a book or limited to working within the pages of a book.
Is the whole of my thinking governed by Scripture, or do I come with my reason and pick and choose out of Scripture and sit in judgment upon it, putting myself and modern knowledge forward as the ultimate standard and authority?
The whole of my thinking is governed by the Holy Spirit. Mr. Lloyd-Jones may make it an either or but that doesn't mean it is.
The issue is crystal clear. Do I accept Scripture as a revelation from God,
Yes!
or do I trust to speculation, human knowledge, human learning, human understanding and human reasons
No I do not.
Or, putting it still more simply, Do I pin my faith to, and subject all my thinking to, what I read in the Bible?
I DO NOT pin my faith to or subject myself to anyone or anything but Jesus.
Or do I defer to modern knowledge, to modern learning, to what people think today, to what we know at this present time which was not known in the past? It is inevitable that we occupy one or the other of those two positions. Which side do you fall on?
Neither. But since you posted this Michael, I will assume you fail to understand the position I do come from and I will leave it at that.
No hard feelings on my part. I hope I have not offended you or anyone else.
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Permalink Reply by Suzette Lambert on
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I guess I see this even differently.
I am impressed that Father has given us a book by which to know Him by and that Jesus is the book and so much more. I know when I sit down and read the Word the very presence of God fills the room, the two can not be seperated, nor am I bothered by that. If anything I find the Word to expand to me who Father is, and does not limit Him. There are so many things I have yet to find in the Word that I can hardly wait to see what He shows me of Himself next. I have pinned my faith to the book who I also see as Christ Himself. It's an amazing thing, It's truly supernatural and mind boggling to me that He has given me an endless bit of information for my mind and a banquet for my spirit as I read. The Word is impressive, way more than we can comprehend, like our Father. I see in no way that He is limited but wide open in His Word. I just haven't found Him all yet.
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