Plumb Lines and Posturing
There has been much discussion on this board covering varying topics where it has been suggested that the Word (scriptures) is not the ultimate authority for faith, life and practice. One has even said that the plumb line for truth is Jesus Himself and stands above the scriptures as a rule and authority. This sounds very spiritual and even appealing. However, a simple question remains. Will Jesus himself, the Father, or the Holy Spirit, ever say something in opposition to the written word? If you hold to continuing revelation, then will any revelation stand against what has been already proposed in scripture?
Tags: God, authority, of, scriptures, word
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Permalink Reply by Suzette Lambert on -
Thanks Cynthia for explaining this so well.
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Permalink Reply by Lisa J on -
No need to apologize :)
Claudia, I know what you mean about keeping up with the comments! Suzette, I didn't know you were talking about yourself in your original comment about detoxing from the bible....I thought you were talking in reference to some of the other's comments.
("I read the replies and I think, I've never worshiped the Bible, I just love it. I love the revelation in it. It is the funnest book I know and I don't feel like it is a weight I must stick to. I grew up Lutheran which may explain my thought processes around this. There is so much joy for me as I read it, that it is difficult for me to understand some of the views here. I know that for some it may be important to go through a season of not reading it every day, as a process of recovery." )
Sorry for the misunderstanding! This is a little confusing for me to follow--I'm not too good at this board discussion stuff yet!
The last thing I want to do is to contribute to making this board a place of divisiveness. I apologize if it felt that way :)
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Permalink Reply by ded on -
Michael,
I agree with you completely on "continuing" revelation. If there is no standard such as the written word against which one may judge a "new" revelation then we are left with no real revelation at all. Whose word shall we trust, if not the written record of Him we seek? Either the Word declares faithfully of the Lord, or we must run the race of life wondering whether or not to believe conflicting revelations from many different people. Rather than stating Jesus stands above scripture, which implies one may disregard scripture if the experience of the living Jesus within a believer says do so, (Yikes!), we must regard scripture as the full revelation with no further revelation needed.
However, I don't see this as an either/or but a both/ more situation. God as the living Lord is greater than a collection of His thoughts for the reason He is whole and the Bible is but a part of Him. Yet, He has ordained that we would know from the written revelation what if means to live in His Presence in real time. The fullness of Biblical revelation is that one may experience guidance and comfort daily as a function of being in communion with the Holy Spirit. The believing the Word as the fullness of revelation is not the end of faith; it reveals the basis and nature of a relationship. The relationship is the point.
I think sometimes it happens that a believer moves spiritually into the written word which was previously only understood intellectually. This moment of faith in and love for God is a rich experience with the Holy Spirit. Or perhaps the blinders are removed and something which has been man's teaching crumbles before God's Truth. This feels like new revelation possibly, but is not a universal new revelation of God for all people. It is a function of the believer maturing into something God has already revealed. Maintaining your position of a belief that our Lord will not contradict His written revelation is the safeguard we need to sort out our soulish wants from true spiritual growth. Being in honest and vital relationship with other believers, is another important safeguard against "continuing" revelation which is nothing more than exalting the human self.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Sensenig on -
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that Jesus took issue with people not testing their beliefs by saying, "You have heard...but I say unto you..."
There's a bit of a fallacy in this, though. The interesting thing about Jesus' comments is that he wasn't referencing religious hearsay. He was actually quoting scripture in the "you have heard" portion of the statements.
For example, in Matthew 5:38, Jesus says, "You have heard 'an eye for an eye'...." -- this was in the scripture (Lev 24:20)! Yet he then tells them a different way in verse 39 when he instructs them to "turn the other cheek".
I think this honestly makes it very difficult to say that Jesus won't reveal something that goes counter to scripture. He did exactly that in Matthew 5. So the question becomes why Jesus was giving different instructions and what that means for us today.
For the record, I do not believe that this means that anything goes untested. However, I would submit that the test is not necessarily "what is written in the scripture?" but rather "what does the Spirit say about this?" In this sense, there is certainly a need to test revelation within the community of believers and not just floating free-form by ourselves, living by our own interpretations alone.
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Permalink Reply by Miguel on -
Jesus didn't listen to the scriptures? I am sorry, but this statement is simply wrong.
Matt. 15:1-3 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!" Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
Jesus is not breaking the OT law; he is violating a "tradition of the elders" - part of the Pharasaic oral law, or code of interpretation, not the actual law.
Luke 6:1-4 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and his disciples began to pick some heads of grain, rub them in their hands and eat the kernels...
Once again, however, he is violating a Pharasaic interpretation of what constituted "work", not an actual OT law.
As to touching a leper, where in the law does it prohibit a person from touching a leper?
God's Law was observed by Jesus perfectly, since Jesus never sinned.
Of course Jesus listened to the scripture, confirmed the scripture, and fulfilled the prophecies of scripture.
Aida said:Steve, I think you've made some really good points. Jesus himself didn't follow the scriptures. Contrary to the law, he did many of his miracles on the Sabbath as well as allowing his disciples to pick grain on the Sabbath. Contrary to the law, he touched lepers.
Also, throughout the Bible, there are miracles that had never been done before yet the people knew they were from God.
I agree that the scriptures are not meant to be our test for authenticity. Instead, as we learn to listen to our newly created hearts that are filled with the Spirit, we'll know what's of God and what isn't.
"If you wouldn't be friends with a person like that, you won't be friends with a God like that." - Darin Hufford (http://freebelievers.com/index.php)
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Permalink Reply by Miguel on
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Thanks Aida,
I can be a bit over zealous at times. This discussion has been good for me as well as it has helped to clarify some issues. The only place I get to talk about these things is on boards like this as I am a missionary in the heart of the Ecuadorian Rain Forest. Here there is no great doctrinal controversies, Just meeting peoples physical and spiritual needs, and bringing them the truth and love of God.
Blessings
Aida said:This has been a great discussion. To be honest, when I read Michael’s comments, I wasn’t planning to respond. Personally, I don’t think it’s helpful to have a volley of scriptures going back and forth. Also, I’ve never been good at debating so I’d probably lose the debate.
Rather than responding immediately, I waited and I’m glad I did because I began to see things in a new light. I appreciate Michael’s comments and I agree with what he said. Jesus DID keep God’s laws but broke the traditions that men had developed to try to explain God’s laws. I believe that’s an important distinction and I’m glad Michael brought it up.
In the religious system, we’ve been taught as law a lot of things that are merely the traditions of men. I believe it’s important that we make a distinction between what is really from God and what is tradition.
Jesus said that the law can be summed up by the statements “love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength” and “love your neighbor as yourself.” He was led by love. That’s the law he kept and that’s the law we’re supposed to keep.
A lot of traditions have developed regarding the purpose of scripture and its use. This discussion, however, has strengthened my belief that the scriptures are NOT the plumb line we’re to use in making decisions. God’s law of love should be the deciding factor. I believe if we’re led to a deeper understanding and expression of his love, then we’re on the right path.
I know we all don’t agree on some things and that’s okay. We’ve all been given a portion of the truth so that we can learn from one another as we share our portion. I’m glad everyone here has shared their portion. This conversation has been a great encouragement to me.
"If you wouldn't be friends with a person like that, you won't be friends with a God like that." - Darin Hufford (http://freebelievers.com/index.php)
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on -
I find it interesting that Peter, on the roof, had a vision from God which went contrary to both tradition and scripture -- God was telling him to break with what he knew of both (don't eat unclean foods, and by extrapolation, don't associate with unclean people), and to realize that God had done away with that law.
He argued against God -- saying he had to follow tradition and scripture...!
God had to show him the vision 3 times before Peter could accept it (God is soooooooo patient with us, even when we think we already "possess all truth").
Eventually, Peter was able to put aside that which he thought he already knew and understood, to receive God's revelation of yet-more-revealed Truth... but he had to go contrary to tradition, to scripture, and to the prevaling religious understanding of his day.
God had to even provide a little miracle (the falling of the Holy Spirit upon Gentiles), in order to make His point.
It's not that God changes, or changes His truth -- it's that we know in part, as through a mirror dimly, and we have to move on into the further unfolding of yet-more Truth, as we're ready, as He prepares us, and as He reveals it to us. It's a process, a journey -- not a destination to reach, nor a position to defend.
It's Him we have to trust -- not our traditions, and not even our current understanding of what we read in Scriptures. We cannot understand what's written apart from the Holy Spirit, who inspired it. He alone can interpret it for us, at whatever stage of the journey we find ourselves.
It is a living relationship we have with Him -- and not a static grasp of historically rendered writings.
We have to give one another the grace, the room, the freedom to BE where we each are with the Living God. We have to trust Him, rather than doctrine.
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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I'm curious about this...
I often hear concerns about how we're (the Church at large) being deceived (or how deceit is rampant), and I'd like to understand better.
Can you give me a few "for instances" regarding some deceptions you're aware of..? Maybe that would help me to understand the concern. Thanks!
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
Cynthia Rauser said:I would like to add something here. I am disturbed at the current movement within the country and I think we are wise to observe that there is a spirit of deception moving upon our fellow believers today. As a body, this has been probably the chuch's biggest downfall. I feel we have failed as a church to teach, intruct and mentor our diciples. We have pursued the acceptance of Christ but have fail to teach the later and possibly the most important that "diligence" and "growth" is asked of us in the "knowledge" of God.
Our children have grown up in a body of apathy and ignorance and the payment for that, I believe is upon us today. If we are to truly allow Jesus to "save"us we must do the work of saving ourselves though rememberance and applying the transformation in our own lives. So, we can effectively show others how to do this for themselves. (2Peter 1)
Summary, teach people how to read and understand the Bible this is a taught skill and it doesn't simply happen.
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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Thanks Rick -- while it's good to read what the Bible says (in that particular translation), it's more helpful in a conversation to know how *you* see those verses, and what you believe they mean -- how are you applying them to the conversation at hand...?
May I share how I'm currently seeing things...? I share for consideration, not offering up "proof" -- only the Spirit can convince us of the things He wants us to see.
The things they were to hold faithful to, the things which they had been taught, had been given to them orally -- they didn't have the new testament to read at that point (though they'd likely read, or heard, some of the letters that had made the rounds).
I see that John and the writer of the letter to the Hebrews believed, and taught, that the time was coming (was very soon to come, without delay), that God's new covenant would be such that His laws would be written on our hearts, and that we would be in need for no one other than His Spirit within us to teach us. In fact, it starts with addressing the deceitful teachings of some:
1 John 2:26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.
27As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
And here, the writer to the Hebrews says (I'm not shouting -- it's written in caps in the NASB):
Hebrews 8:10"FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11"AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12"FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
I've come to believe that we're living in that covenant, that age, and while the implications are difficult to conceive of, due to what we've been taught for so long, the ramifications are wonderful to consider, and to understand, and to begin to cooperate with Him in how they are unfolding -- for the increase of His government will have no end, one heart awakened to Him at a time...
I'm seeing that the ones who were admonished to remain faithful to what they'd been taught were of that generation -- the very generation Jesus told would not pass away 'til He returned ... the very ones He said would remain alive (some of them) 'til they saw Him return. So the way they would read those warnings is very different than how we, in a different timeframe, would read those warnings. Just as we don't need to heed the warnings to Assyria, Babylon or Egypt (for the destruction was for them, and came to pass, and is finished), neither do we need to heed (nor fear) the warnings given to that generation (for the destruction was for them, and came to pass, and is finished).
What we need to begin to consider, is what was written (prophecied) of this covenant, this "heaven and earth" in which we now live, who we are, what is our purpose, what's been done, what is at hand, what is ours to realize and experience, and what is the message we are to share with those who are not awake to the reality of what Jesus has already done... once we get into that mindset, the implications are astonishingly awesome, and the future is very, very bright...!
We have nothing to lose but the fear that was never intended for us to experience...
I realize that folks may not see what I see, and that's ok. He will lead us all into all truth (not claiming I'm there ... it's an ongoing, incremental journey). I did get this view from my reading of scripture, and later ran into some folks who were seeing the same thing.
Again, I'm sharing, not foisting. If we believe a thing because someone else "done told us" then it's nothing more than sitting passively in pews and swallowing spiritual formula. He wants us to dig into the meat of what's written, asking Him to give us HIS perspective of what we're reading, to ask the hard questions, to assume nothing, to question status quo, to consider other possiblilities than what we've been previously taught -- to use the minds He gave us, and to reason together, with Him.
Any of us can, if we're willing, to do that... trusting Him to lead.
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
Rick Knock said:2 Thessalonians 2:15 NLT
15 With all these things in mind, dear brothers and sisters, stand firm and keep a strong grip on the teaching we passed on to you both in person and by letter.
2 Timothy 3:12-14 NLT
12 Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
13 But evil people and impostors will flourish. They will deceive others and will themselves be deceived.
14 But you must remain faithful to the things you have been taught. You know they are true, for you know you can trust those who taught you.
2 Peter 3:15-16 NLT
15 And remember, the Lord's patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him—
16 speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Sensenig on
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Jesus didn't listen to the scriptures? I am sorry, but this statement is simply wrong.
Michael, I'm not sure if you were responding to me, but I had written about the "you have heard...but I say..." statements of Jesus and how he was actually quoting scripture in the first part ("you have heard...") in those statements.
I would love to get your feedback on that, based on your other comments in this thread, and your original assertion that everything should be tested against the scripture. Wouldn't the listeners of Jesus' day have had every reason to label him as a false teacher since what he taught was different than their scripture?
And if Jesus was saying, "You have heard [insert statement from their scripture], but I say to you [insert something different]", how does that affect your original assertion in this thread?
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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You brave, crazy woman, you! :P
Methinks Darin nailed it. Again.
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
Deb said:I feel that this is appropiate to post under this topic........although I didn't write it, I did emphasize some things throughout. Enjoy! :-)
agape'
Deb
Spending Believe
When people read through the different blogs and articles on "The Free Believers Network" site, I see two different ways of thinking manifested.
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