Part Two
Now, what it is that I perceive truthfully unites the board of H2H and all other Christians, for that matter, is exactly the agape for all of humanity that Jehovah Himself puts into us through the Spirit of Jesus. Because, if my own experience is any indicator of a common experience among Christians, through His Spirit, I became a lover of God and of my Brothers and Sisters and of all Men and Women, just like our Father, the happy God, feels so much fondness and affection for us All that He sent His Only Sex-born (‘begotten’) Son to save the kosmos, you and I and Joe and Jane Man included!
I know it could be reasonably said, because of what I’ve typed so far, that I am setting up what is called, comically, ‘a straw man’ to be knocked down later.
So, I’ll just leave him standing up, unmolested, as a figure for you to contemplate, later, because I want to talk about how I perceive this strange unity came to be.
It came to be because our English Bibles are believed, by many Christians, to be an accurate translation of the original words while they are, in fact, a biased translation of those words. And, historically speaking, that bias was fixed into the English text because of the theology that was in the heart of the man who ended up being most responsible for establishing the finality of what we read in our English Bible, the brilliant logician Mr. John Calvin and his most excellently executed Geneva Bible.
The history of this, with appropriate counterpoints of dissension, is readily available to all in this, the Age of Google.
Now, I know that every cult has appropriated this fact of our English Bible’s translational bias as their starting point. And yes, I have seen these cults use the corresponding logic that naturally follows their ‘re-translations’ to justify, in themselves, controlling power, much bad behavior and many harmful attitudes.
And that is my defense; their attitudes and behavior and speech point out the fallacy of what they believe ‘the Bible really says’ because what I perceive the original words really teach is that Jesus came to free me from Sin and give me not just the desire, but the ability to be good, and thus He expects goodness from me because I am a participant in my own salvation!
However, their bad behavior does not invalidate the fact that our English Bibles are, of truth, a biased translation of those original words. Their bad behavior only sullies this fact, thus making it a useful point in debate.
And so, I would forewarn you that Universalism, and especially ‘Ultimate Reconciliation’, as an espoused theology, is not without its human granola, too.
One of the differences this belief that Jesus will save all of mankind has made in me is that I no longer care to make an issue of ‘my theology’ in my intercourse with other Christians because I am ‘comfortable in my own skin’, as the saying goes, with what I believe. I rather prefer to enjoy interacting with and learning from the good hearts that are growing in my fellow brothers and sisters.
For I perceive that I have the Spirit of Jesus dwelling inside of me, where He said the kingdom of God is, just as you, also, have His Spirit making a home inside of you, for your own moment of faith. And for this Holy Spirit inside of me, interacting with my spirit in a similar fashion as sperm meeting an ovum to grow a new human being inside of me, I find that I love being human and that I love being good. And this is exactly what I perceive from scripture that we were All originally created to be!
After all, what I believe is truthful about my God will influence my behavior- for better or for worse.
However, from what I perceive in his writings, Maurice and many other Christians who hold similar beliefs as his, do care, a great deal, about what I believe because he does seem to want all Christians to unite under a ‘correct’ theology. And, apparently, that theology is the highly logical and systematically codified, medieval one which he articulates well.
It is, of course, the very same theology that all Christians will initially learn from our English Bibles for being taught, axiomatically, that our English translations are, indeed, accurate and unbiased, where ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’ are concerned.
At this point I want to pause to say, emphatically, that I know there is still much truth translated into our English Bibles, otherwise they would not be as effective as they have been, through the Spirit of Jesus, in reaching the world with the Good News that God is agape and that He is particularly fond of you.
Now, I perceive that Maurice, as well as many of you on the board, are familiar with those other meanings given to certain theologically weighty, key words and phrases, but choose to hold fast to the popularized meanings. A-men.
I don’t. A-men.
Is this problematic? Not for me it isn’t because I recognize that I cannot convince you or anybody else, of anything that you do not want to believe, especially by employing logic, because these are matters between you and your God and your conscience.
However, I have become concerned enough over how this invitation could be perceived by others to write this open letter, knowing that I will likely catch no small corner of hell for it and worse. Sadly, I may even lose some acquaintances over this because, only now, do they know what I have come to believe. Certainly I will earn not a few adversaries among my fellow Christians… and that is truly a shame.
Nonetheless, I’m writing this because I can foresee what the kind of thinking that is tacitly being encouraged through this invitation might lead to: The isolation and rejection, over a theology (of all things!), of a significant and growing number of Christians in the house church movement, simply because they have come to believe that Jehovah, through Jesus, can and will save all human beings, not just some.
Now, to reiterate, it’s not problematic for me that others are concerned about what I believe because I can appreciate and am, therefore, sympathetic toward my fellow Christians for my understanding why most Christians would find themselves compelled to believe that Jesus came from heaven only to save a few chosen/choosing humans and that this peculiar, eternal ‘hell’ actually exists. And that is because I have come to understand just how that eternal ‘hell’ was translated into existence, right along with that peculiar idea that, for this few, their final destiny is heaven; for one can’t help but draw these logical conclusions and then believe them to be truth for trusting that our English Bible is a thoroughly accurate translation of the original words of God.
In defense of that point I would quote Jon Zens, a man who Maurice has much regard for, saying of him that he is a “sharp knife” and a “walking encyclopedia” (I’m sorry, Jon, for I perceive that you are sympathetic to Maurice’s most noble cause. However, what you said is the truth, and this truth, coming from your writings, makes the point that much more salient because of your sympathies and the respect you have earned. Will you forgive me for shanghaiing your words in this letter?).
Jon said this in his most excellent little book, What’s With Paul And Women?, a book rightly endorsed by many of the influential in ‘house church’:
“The way Mr. Mc Leod and “Brother Richard” used 1 Timothy 2:11-12 also highlights another problem that must be squarely faced. Too many people in the pews read their chosen Bible translation assuming it is completely accurate and trustworthy. (The emphasis here is mine, Ed.) Leland Ryken rightly observes:
“Readers who do not know the original biblical languages assume that an English translation reproduces what the Bible really says… . People naturally and legitimately appeal to the English translation in their hands as constituting “what the Bible says”… . (This emphasis is his. Ed.)
Readers of the English translation operate on the premise that they are reading what the bible actually says.”
Jon then goes on further to write of how this tendency has hurt a significant number of Christians, namely, women. I apply the same thoughts he expresses here to this situation that has been created by inviting Maurice to speak against Universalism.
“I shudder to think of all the times in the past 500 years that church leaders have publically employed an English translation of I Timothy 2:11-12 to silence women, as if these verses were the last and final words on the matter. But they were mistaken. All the older pulpit translations had wrongly translated hesuchisa as “silence.” How many times have Bible teachers confidently asserted, “The silence of women is stated right here in God’s Word as clear as a bell. You can read it; I can read it. Therefore we are constrained to obey the injunction.” But the translation before them is actually erroneous, and as a result untold damage is being done to the body of Christ. There is absolutely nothing illegitimate about researching to better comprehend -even to confirm or deny- that a particular translation is correct.” (The emphasis, here, is his. Ed.) Chapter 5, pages 47-48.
Of course, this kind of thing is OK to say when you find yourself agreeing with the point the author is trying to make.
But, what if you were to encounter Christians, like myself, who can exert that exactly such things as Jon said here apply to what is believed the Bible teaches about your destiny in either heaven or that peculiar, eternal hell? Things that are both internally and externally contradictory, logically and theologically speaking, but seem right to believe because they are derived from the words that you read in your English Bibles?
And for some Christians, who are so inclined, cannot these ideas be used similarly to how these misogynistic men that Jon pointed out used a mistranslated English text to justify their arrogance and shut down the important and beneficial voice of women all because they are misogynistic men who like thinking that their English Bible tells them they should?
So, what do you think? Would these good, Christian men stop being misogynistic and change their way of thinking and appreciate and accept what Jon was telling them about the text they loved so much to quote, just because Jon had proof that what they were reading was a mistranslation?
Or would these good, Christian men fight Jon, tooth and nail, in the name of ‘doctrine’ and attempt to discredit Jon, if they couldn’t disprove his proof (and the evil thing in this is that they would know if they couldn’t disprove it; for doesn’t the very act of ‘discrediting’ show this?), so that they might continue to enjoy their hearts of resentment and hostility toward women?
So, what would you do if you had to deal with these good, Christian men, personally? Are they, indeed, good Christian men?
Now, consider this: “What are universalistic Christians to do with those good Christians who would see their way clear, because of the perceptions conveyed through this invitation, to unify against them in defense of their exclusive theology?”
What would you want these universalistic Christians to do in response to these good Christians? Could you do what you would want them to do?
At this point I would like to ask a few, “What if’s?”
What if the universalistic view was the more correct view according to the original languages? What if, as I have found it to be, several of the logical conclusions that pass for truth in modern, medieval Christianity had actually been translated into existence?
What if you were to find, for discovering the evidence that exposes this translational trickery that you came to realize that you actually wanted that peculiar, eternal hell to exist?
Wow. I want to tell you that this is the exact question I asked of my heart, when I first came into this understanding- and it is the one that revealed my heart the most to me.
So, I would now ask a question of that high level of understanding that the board of H2H has of scripture and that because of your own journeys and for your own intense studies. That question is this: “Have you, who sit on the board of H2H, come to trust your English translations enough to be dogmatic enough to allow yourselves to be perceived as encouraging the isolation of a growing number of Christians in the house church movement simply because these Christians have come to believe that the original languages teach that Jehovah will save all human beings through Jesus, The Christ, not just a few ‘select’ ones?”
“Or, is it possible that, for whatever reason is yours, you so want the theology that you invited Maurice to expound on to be the truthful one that you are willing to insulate yourself from understanding what these other Christians, like myself, truly believe, and why they believe it? All for the sake of this extraordinary unity that can have you being perceived as uniting for the eternal torture of most of humanity, in order to defend ‘correct’ theology, while you, yourselves, ‘chose’/’have been appointed’ to enjoy ‘heaven’… if you even can, given the eternal torture of most of humanity in this peculiar hell, that, apparently, according to ‘correct’ theology, you can witness?”
“Have you ever thought about what kind of spirit you would have to be to be able to enjoy ‘heaven’ while you witness the rest of humanity agonized in a conscious, burning torment, forever lost to the God who was able to save you from this same eternal hell?”
I’m being impertinent, I know and I’m sorry. Really, I mean no offense. Rather my purpose was to expose you to the kind of questions that haunted me most of my adult life- logical questions that arose in me because of the logical conclusions that I was taught were truth, according to my English Bible. Forgive me, but my prayer is that these questions come to haunt you, too.
Now, because of the effect of Jesus’ Spirit inside of me, which, I’ve noticed, brought good changes in me, in spite of what I first came to believe was true about Jehovah, I have become, over time, a human being who can experience joy from his own spirit and who can practice righteousness consistently for the peace of his soul and for the good feeling of a clean conscience. And I have also found freedom from that old agitation that I used to know, that is, I have found peace in my mind because of the concord I have come to perceive in the logical conclusions drawn from the ideas conveyed through the alternate meanings given to those theologically important, key words and phrases. And so, I am satisfied: Deeply satisfied. I can relax now, having found what I was looking for from my God; of a truth those who seek Him whole heartedly will find Him.
Therefore, I would want everyone who made it thus far in reading this necessarily lengthy letter, to understand that the biggest reason I have taken the time to write this, and am willing to endure the coming conflict that this letter could produce, as well as facing the possible loss of affection from several fellow Christians who now know ‘my theology’, is because my heart remains agitated and inconsolable over the perceptions I felt were conveyed by this noble invitation for Maurice to ‘defend the faith’ even though I’m quite sure that Maurice and all of you would not think of yourselves as being against Universalism so much as being for truth.
And so, as I approach the end of my letter I would like to ask if I have successfully communicated that I can appreciate your motivations, as well as asking if you perceive, for having read this letter, that I am truly sympathetic to the dilemma created in your compassionate souls about what to do with these like me, these Universalists, because you do trust that what you are reading in our English Bibles, concerning ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’, is the truth?
And if this letter has been able to impart any appreciation for the universalistic view, I would also like to ask if you are now more understanding of the impact that you have on these many universalistic Christians who have come to do house church exactly because of what they believe; for they are as influenced by you who sit on the board of H2H, through the things you say and the things you do and the things you teach, as are the Christians who’s theologies you would seem to approve.
So, if I have been effective in my communication, then I would ask, also, if you can now appreciate that we share a common dilemma in wondering what we are to do with each other.
And finally, I would like to know if you perceive that I have found my answer to this dilemma in what I believe.
However, if, at this point, any of you reading this find that your heart is unable to appreciate these things I’ve written, then, perhaps, I could offer up the wisdom of Gamaliel (Acts 5:34-41) as a credible, Biblical response to the dilemma created because of this growing number of Christians who are coming to appreciate and live out the universalistic understanding that they are perceiving in scripture.
In closing, then, I would like to ask a few pertinent questions as a guide toward reflection: “Have you not found, for yourselves, that it is living out the love and mercy and forgiveness, that Jehovah puts into you, through the Spirit of Jesus, the same agape, that same fondness and affection that He Himself said, through His Son, that He has for all of humanity, that is all that is needed to bring other humans into the kingdom of God?”
“And have you found that this ‘method’ is many times more effective toward this goal than preaching to these ‘lost ones’ about the Just Wrath of an Angry God and His Divine Willingness to throw their sorry, human a$$e$ into a conscious hell of eternal, burning fire, so that these preached at ones might be frightened into the Kingdom and then stay put for coming to think of themselves as especial from among all of humanity?”
Many of us, including myself, came into the kingdom this way, granted. But, we grew up from there, didn’t we!
So, one final pertinent question: “What now draws you personally to God and motivates you the most to hold conferences and seminars, to write books and spend your hard earned money and valuable time teaching others about God’s ways of leadership and understanding, through Jesus?”
His Love, inside of you, where His kingdom is?
Or your belief in that fearful, eternal hell?
And so, with much agape, I encourage you to keep being good. After all, it is what you were created to be!
Seriously, I thank you for your time.
Dennis!
Tags: Universalism
Permalink Reply by Dale Interactive on October 21, 2010 at 10:06am
Permalink Reply by Eleutheros on October 21, 2010 at 12:10pm
Permalink Reply by Tony Dale on October 22, 2010 at 9:28am
Permalink Reply by Eleutheros on October 22, 2010 at 5:04pm
Permalink Reply by Tony Dale on December 11, 2010 at 3:47pm Over the past month, the House 2 House board, of which Felicity and I are a part, has been considering how we should reply to this and other threads that come up on the subject of Universalism or Universal Reconciliation. We have come up with the statement that I will post below, which I hope makes clear where we stand on this particular issue. This statement is also posted on the home page of Simplechurch.com to make it easier for all to find.
It is the purpose and goal of House2House and SimpleChurch to serve the larger Christian House Church Movement. As long as very basic Christian beliefs, behaviours, and character are maintained, any person or group may participate in H2H or SimpleChurch communities or discussion groups. While we are open to discussion and debate of many issues, some are off the table. Issues on the no go list include Mormon doctrine, Universal Reconciliation, and derogatory comments about the traditional church. It is the policy of H2H and SimpleChurch to extend this "position of inclusion" to followers of Christ from all Christian denominations while at the same time barring any proselytizing between groups or discussion focused on the differences.
Permalink Reply by Eleutheros on December 12, 2010 at 7:21am "That day [Buttercup] was amazed to discover that when [Wesley] was saying, 'As you wish', what he really meant was, 'I love you'."
The Princess Bride- William Goldman.
As you wish.
Keep on being good, Tony!
And I will do the same.
It is, after all, what we were created to be!
Dennis!
Permalink Reply by Ryan Spear on December 12, 2010 at 1:01pm Dennis,
In your letter you were making the point, "It came to be because our English Bibles are believed, by many Christians, to be an accurate translation of the original words while they are, in fact, a biased translation of those words."
You do understand that English is pretty much all anyone here can read and that is all we have for bibles. There is only one entity in existance that I can see who would like to put in the minds of people that there bible is bias and untruthful so that people won't read it or believe what it says. I'll let you guess. Who's side are you on?
Ryan
Permalink Reply by Eleutheros on December 13, 2010 at 6:51am
Ryan Spear said:
Dennis,
In your letter you were making the point, "It came to be because our English Bibles are believed, by many Christians, to be an accurate translation of the original words while they are, in fact, a biased translation of those words."
You do understand that English is pretty much all anyone here can read and that is all we have for bibles. There is only one entity in existance that I can see who would like to put in the minds of people that there bible is bias and untruthful so that people won't read it or believe what it says. I'll let you guess. Who's side are you on?
Ryan
Hi Ryan,
I'm really sorry, but I read from Tony's reply that there is no longer to be any discussion on these things, here.
I will respect that.
If you would like to have a discussion on this privately, that can be arranged. Please contact me through a PM and we can dialouge there. I don't think that would be violating the board's intentions in making this statement.
(If I'm wrong on that, whomever is reading this, please let me know and I will refrain.)
Thanks for understanding, Ryan.
Be good!
Dennis!
Permalink Reply by Bill Wood on December 13, 2010 at 7:52pm thanks Tony, as the owner of this site, for now allowing UR(unending repetition) to continue..........
I agree.....
Thanks Tony!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
© 2013 Created by Dale Interactive.