Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit
Reading a comment here recently, I was reminded of the different reactions I have encountered from various believers and churches to "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit", and the "unforgivable sin".
I have also seen many lovely Christians in great fear and bondage because they are convinced they have committed the unforgivable sin.
I really just wanted to raise a discussion on the subject.
For myself, I am firm in my belief that I can never ever commit the unforgivable sin! However, I am sure some will think this is pride.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Sandy McCoy- Foust on -
John
I just caught this!...Do you feel verse 9... thru 13 of John..chap 1..is connected to Heb. 6:4-6?Sandy
Sandy McCoy- Foust said:
John
I did read verse 12 as well as 13..sorry, just didnt state that..Your question to me...
What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?Im not quite sure what you are saying.....could you explain further?..I have read and reread..John1:12&13..as well as Heb 6:4-6..and then your question once more...I have a clue but before I elaborate ..give me a little more to chew on please......Are you asking if I feel you need to choose ..to receive him... before we can become a child of God?
Thanks,
Sandy
John Bennett said:
Ryan:
If anyone desires to hear a version of this issue that they have never heard before, in which I have found no contradiction, which answers the Calvinist contention as well as the Armenian, that is only based on scripture and not opinion, if one can approach it with the faith of a child, then I would be willing to explain. If I'm wrong, then I ask others to show, by the scripture, me the error of my belief, and I will discard mine, or at least modify to conform to His.
I believe the Lord has showed me, and throughout my life a few others, the real Truth to explain these supposed unexplainables" from the scripture. The notion that no one will ever understand something, or that we must agree to disagree, I believe, is contrary to the very nature of God. The Lord desires to show us all truth, He also desires us all to be of the same mind. It is we who inhibit this goal, not Him. Therefore, I believe that the only obstacle to understanding anything about the gracious Lord is actually my own stubborness and unwillingness to admit that I may actually be wrong or that I may actually be lacjing in some knowledge of His ways. I would hope that all believers endeaver to maintain this form of humilty in their search for the Truth.
Is anyo0ne at least curious? If I sound proud, please, I try not to be. I am just so always filled with joy and excitiement when I believe that the Lord has show me a new gem of Truth. A flawless diamond of Truth, no matter how small. I would rather have one tiny diamond of truth that is absolutely pure, than a whole treasury of flawed precious stones.So what'll it be?
-john
Ryan Spear said:John,
I've been on both sides of the fence with the Arminian and Calvin beliefs. The subject is more of the tree of knowledge of good and evil than of the tree of life to discuss. In other words it has the potential to be divisive (relationship breaking). I love the subject though. Like Eve, the subject is good for spiritulal food, pleasent to the eyes and a subject to be desired to make one wise, to know what God knows.
I ate of this forbidden subject and my eyes were opened to my own pride. To think I once thought I had the power to tell God what to do, meaning He had to save me because I, yes "I" made the right choice... by the power of my own free will. Yup, God could have never saved me without my permission.
At the same time, I also believe God has the power to give everyone exactly what they want just as He gave Satan his own kingdom so that he could be like God.
When it comes to Heb 6:4-6, as it doesn't give any example of circumstances to getting to the fallen away point, I remember an older woman at the motel I was staying who stated she wanted nothing to do with God because of her messed up life circumstance she was in. If a person has a life comparable to Job and blames and curses God for thier missery, hardening thier hearts, especially at an older age, as I get older here myself in understanding this, yes I can see it is impossible to renew them to repentance.
John Bennett said:Sandy:
Actually vs 12 was my first point, not vs 13. And to fully understand how I view Heb 6:4-6 as for an unbeliever, we would have to explore a few more verses. What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?
This different understanding also explains the mystery of the argument between the Calvinists and the Armenians.
If not interested, I understand.
John
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Permalink Reply by Frank on -
John,
Just to add personal experience to my last response to your comment.
My previous wife, a Christian was unfaithful. I forgave her, but she then walked out. As a Christian I believed I was in a covenant relationship with her, and therefore was not prepared to be passive about it. I embarked on a whole load of spiritual warfare against the demonic forces which had been destroying our marriage. I believed that God was able to heal and restore the marriage.
Amongst the warfare, my constant cry to God was "Lord change me, change my wife".
After about a year of battle, as I was praying one day, my words were interrupted by the clear and imperative voice of God.
"IF I COULD CHANGE SHEILA, I WOULD HAVE CHANGED ADAM!"
This was an explosive statement to say the least. I was truly shocked, yet at the same time totally released. God had in effect declared me a free man!
However, the truth of God's statement, as given for my situation was not exclusive. God was making it clear that he would never insert his arm into Sheila's inner workings and flip the choice switch over to the obedience position, and neither would He have done it for Adam.
God, despite being Lord and Creator of all, has limited Himself to working within the frame of mankind's freewill choices. The bible is full of bold and clear examples of this, nobody can escape this fact. (Except of course, Calvinists LOL)
Sheila knew absolutely what she was doing. In fact my warfare had actually been primarily directed against the demons of deception, as well as fornication, lust, adultery etc. God was now making it crystal clear, that Sheila had made a freewill choice before God, and God was letting her have it. I had no power to intervene, nor right to request God to do so. Dealing with deceptive spirits was correct, but this was now beyond that stage and direct into her free personal knowing choices.
I must point out that I have always believed that God works in accordance with our free will choices, so this was no new revelation. However the blunt confirmation, via God speaking into my acute crisis was a real wake up call to the very nature of choices we make.
God has a way of using words with great economy, yet contained in those few rhema words from the Lord were earth shattering truths which affected my whole perception of life in Christ.
Faith comes from hearing the word, and I heard the word which despite the pain of betrayal, gave me great freedom from a devastating situation.
Also in the middle of my battle, God, all the while, had an Esther hidden away for me. A faithful woman of God, whom I had met after my wife had departed. God spoke to her the moment she first heard my voice praying across a crowded meeting. She didn't know whose voice it was, but the Spirit shook her and she started to pray, and God started to shift things!
I am now remarried. I have amazing wife who God had prepared and kept aside for me. My journey is back on course.
This little story is a back up illustration of a spiritual truth. God knows the heart, and speaks to the heart. This is why there will be no excuses at the end of days!
God please grant unto us the Spirit of wisdom and revelation!
Frank
Frank said:John
I am sure there must be some differences in the way we think, but you must have been reading my mind to write this one!
John Bennett said:The notion that no one will ever understand something, or that we must agree to disagree, I believe, is contrary to the very nature of God. The Lord desires to show us all truth, He also desires us all to be of the same mind. It is we who inhibit this goal, not Him. Therefore, I believe that the only obstacle to understanding anything about the gracious Lord is actually my own stubborness and unwillingness to admit that I may actually be wrong or that I may actually be lacjing in some knowledge of His ways. I would hope that all believers endeaver to maintain this form of humilty in their search for the Truth.
Is anyo0ne at least curious? If I sound proud, please, I try not to be. I am just so always filled with joy and excitiement when I believe that the Lord has show me a new gem of Truth. A flawless diamond of Truth, no matter how small. I would rather have one tiny diamond of truth that is absolutely pure, than a whole treasury of flawed precious stones.So what'll it be?
-john
AMEN.
-FRANK
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Permalink Reply by Ryan Spear on -
All,
We need to start a new topic if the site here is OK with the discussion of such a topic.
Adam was free to make a choice and died because of it.
Because of Adam were all born condemned. We would wake up every day to displease God no matter what good thing we did.
God gave the law to show us we could never earn salvation, no matter how strong our will is to keep them. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Jesus was necessary because we are too weak and evil to save ourselves.
Once saved, we are brought back into a relationship with God and in the position of Adam prior to the fall to where we, as Christians again can make a choice to please God. That choice includes the ability to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I don't see why anyone would but as they say, "there is one in every crowd."
Arminianism scares me because it ultimatly places salvation, or maybe the ability to stay saved after salvation by grace on my ability to hold on. A chain is as strong as its weakest link. If the Arminian doctrine is correct, I pray I don't go senile or get dimetia like my father-in-law or go out of my mind prior to death and forget or curse God.
Need new thread for this.
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Permalink Reply by John Bennett on
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Sandy:
Yes, we must "receive Him" (his message) before we can "become." Let me elaborate.
If "as many as received Him" means the same thing as "the right to become the children of God", the the staement would be redundant. I believe that "as many as received Him" means 'as many as received His message.' In other words, 'if anyone receives what He is preaching/thegospel (accept it, surrender to it, etc.), then they can receive the "right" to become a child of God.' It sounds basic, but I believe the Holy Spirit worded it that way to make a point. An unbeliever has to first understand, receive, accept, and surrender to what Jesus was preaching before he can even have the right (eternal, spritual right) to even become a child of God. The surrendering to the message of the gospel gives a person the spiritual/eternal right to become a child of God. And within vs. 12, the unbeliever is not yet a believer. We have to next go to vs. 13 for that.
Now vs. 13, to me says some very profound (as all of God's Word), things. When an unbeliever becomes a believer, it is "who were not born of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." This to me is very profound. I understand it to mean these things:
The "of blood" means the family blood-line. One cannot become a believer just because his/her parents are/were. It is an individual/personal, one-on-one with God experience.
The "will oif the flesh" (in an unbeliever) is the 'wants and desires' of the lost, darkened heart. Unbelievers cannot get saved, born-again, become a child of God just because it's what they want. That is out of the depraved, darkened, evil/wicked wants & desires of the lost heart it is impossible to want God.
The "will of man" (in an unbliever) is the 'determinations, will-power, choice' of the lost, darkened mind. That is out of the depraved, darkened, evil/wicked thoughts of the lost mind it is impossible to choose God.Remember all the scriptures from Jeremiah about "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it" and Romans 3:10-18. These, among many others you're porobably familiar with, demonstrate the total depravity of man. Man, in his unbelieving state, cannot nor does he/she desire to seek after God. An unbeliever is natural-born not being able to "receive" what Jesus preached. This poses an 'apparent' problem. How can then anyone get saved, become a child of God, be born-again?
Now this may sound Calvinistic, but we're not done, yet. God doesn't pick and choose who is to go to heaven. He is " willing that all men be saved."
I found that understanding God's ways, as you probably have, comes in steps. If we fail to understand or surrender to the first steps, God may hesitate in showing us the latter steps. So I ask you to have some patience with me.
We will get to Heb 6:4-6 soon. These verses lay the foundation, between which and others I have found no contradictions.
Now, I would ask, do you understand and believe this? (with the caviat, that more will given to balance out the apparent Calvinistic tenor). I am not a Calvinist, nor an Armenian, but perhaps one could say a little of both, or entirely neither.
-john
Sandy McCoy- Foust said:John
I did read verse 12 as well as 13..sorry, just didnt state that..Your question to me...
What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?Im not quite sure what you are saying.....could you explain further?..I have read and reread..John1:12&13..as well as Heb 6:4-6..and then your question once more...I have a clue but before I elaborate ..give me a little more to chew on please......Are you asking if I feel you need to choose ..to receive him... before we can become a child of God?
Thanks,
Sandy
John Bennett said:
Ryan:
If anyone desires to hear a version of this issue that they have never heard before, in which I have found no contradiction, which answers the Calvinist contention as well as the Armenian, that is only based on scripture and not opinion, if one can approach it with the faith of a child, then I would be willing to explain. If I'm wrong, then I ask others to show, by the scripture, me the error of my belief, and I will discard mine, or at least modify to conform to His.
I believe the Lord has showed me, and throughout my life a few others, the real Truth to explain these supposed unexplainables" from the scripture. The notion that no one will ever understand something, or that we must agree to disagree, I believe, is contrary to the very nature of God. The Lord desires to show us all truth, He also desires us all to be of the same mind. It is we who inhibit this goal, not Him. Therefore, I believe that the only obstacle to understanding anything about the gracious Lord is actually my own stubborness and unwillingness to admit that I may actually be wrong or that I may actually be lacjing in some knowledge of His ways. I would hope that all believers endeaver to maintain this form of humilty in their search for the Truth.
Is anyo0ne at least curious? If I sound proud, please, I try not to be. I am just so always filled with joy and excitiement when I believe that the Lord has show me a new gem of Truth. A flawless diamond of Truth, no matter how small. I would rather have one tiny diamond of truth that is absolutely pure, than a whole treasury of flawed precious stones.So what'll it be?
-john
Ryan Spear said:John,
I've been on both sides of the fence with the Arminian and Calvin beliefs. The subject is more of the tree of knowledge of good and evil than of the tree of life to discuss. In other words it has the potential to be divisive (relationship breaking). I love the subject though. Like Eve, the subject is good for spiritulal food, pleasent to the eyes and a subject to be desired to make one wise, to know what God knows.
I ate of this forbidden subject and my eyes were opened to my own pride. To think I once thought I had the power to tell God what to do, meaning He had to save me because I, yes "I" made the right choice... by the power of my own free will. Yup, God could have never saved me without my permission.
At the same time, I also believe God has the power to give everyone exactly what they want just as He gave Satan his own kingdom so that he could be like God.
When it comes to Heb 6:4-6, as it doesn't give any example of circumstances to getting to the fallen away point, I remember an older woman at the motel I was staying who stated she wanted nothing to do with God because of her messed up life circumstance she was in. If a person has a life comparable to Job and blames and curses God for thier missery, hardening thier hearts, especially at an older age, as I get older here myself in understanding this, yes I can see it is impossible to renew them to repentance.
John Bennett said:Sandy:
Actually vs 12 was my first point, not vs 13. And to fully understand how I view Heb 6:4-6 as for an unbeliever, we would have to explore a few more verses. What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?
This different understanding also explains the mystery of the argument between the Calvinists and the Armenians.
If not interested, I understand.
John
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Permalink Reply by John Bennett on
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Ryan:
I believe that Frank started this discussion. Wouldn't it be appropriate to leave that decision to him? If he wishes me to stop, then I will continue on another thread, if desired. I believe my current disdussion with Sandy/others has an impact on the original discussion topic of "the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."
If God is done with my discussion, then I'm done. Are you saying that the Lord wants me to stop?
Again, I am neither a Calvinist nor an Armenian, but I have seen a third, and I believe, a more peaceably, understandable way to see this issue. It will also demonstrate that we should not believe in men, nor their writings of ages past, but only in the Word of God, the scriptures. Our faith must be built upon God's foundation, not others.
Why not start a new discussion in another thread yourself and see what happens.
-john
Ryan Spear said:All,
We need to start a new topic if the site here is OK with the discussion of such a topic.
Adam was free to make a choice and died because of it.
Because of Adam were all born condemned. We would wake up every day to displease God no matter what good thing we did.
God gave the law to show us we could never earn salvation, no matter how strong our will is to keep them. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Jesus was necessary because we are too weak and evil to save ourselves.
Once saved, we are brought back into a relationship with God and in the position of Adam prior to the fall to where we, as Christians again can make a choice to please God. That choice includes the ability to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I don't see why anyone would but as they say, "there is one in every crowd."
Arminianism scares me because it ultimatly places salvation, or maybe the ability to stay saved after salvation by grace on my ability to hold on. A chain is as strong as its weakest link. If the Arminian doctrine is correct, I pray I don't go senile or get dimetia like my father-in-law or go out of my mind prior to death and forget or curse God.
Need new thread for this.
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Permalink Reply by Sandy McCoy- Foust on
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okJohn...I agree with all you have said...now...im lost on the How can then anyone get saved, become a child of God, be born-again?
Isnt being "Born Again"...meaning..new creation?......He draws us...no one comes to the father unless they are drawn...we all have a void..because of the fall... only He can fill it.....so He draws...we surrender..our heart is no longer wicked...once He is within us...we feel "Born Again"...
Am i making any sense?
Sandy
John Bennett said:Sandy:
Yes, we must "receive Him" (his message) before we can "become." Let me elaborate.
If "as many as received Him" means the same thing as "the right to become the children of God", the the staement would be redundant. I believe that "as many as received Him" means 'as many as received His message.' In other words, 'if anyone receives what He is preaching/thegospel (accept it, surrender to it, etc.), then they can receive the "right" to become a child of God.' It sounds basic, but I believe the Holy Spirit worded it that way to make a point. An unbeliever has to first understand, receive, accept, and surrender to what Jesus was preaching before he can even have the right (eternal, spritual right) to even become a child of God. The surrendering to the message of the gospel gives a person the spiritual/eternal right to become a child of God. And within vs. 12, the unbeliever is not yet a believer. We have to next go to vs. 13 for that.
Now vs. 13, to me says some very profound (as all of God's Word), things. When an unbeliever becomes a believer, it is "who were not born of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." This to me is very profound. I understand it to mean these things:
The "of blood" means the family blood-line. One cannot become a believer just because his/her parents are/were. It is an individual/personal, one-on-one with God experience.
The "will oif the flesh" (in an unbeliever) is the 'wants and desires' of the lost, darkened heart. Unbelievers cannot get saved, born-again, become a child of God just because it's what they want. That is out of the depraved, darkened, evil/wicked wants & desires of the lost heart it is impossible to want God.
The "will of man" (in an unbliever) is the 'determinations, will-power, choice' of the lost, darkened mind. That is out of the depraved, darkened, evil/wicked thoughts of the lost mind it is impossible to choose God.Remember all the scriptures from Jeremiah about "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it" and Romans 3:10-18. These, among many others you're porobably familiar with, demonstrate the total depravity of man. Man, in his unbelieving state, cannot nor does he/she desire to seek after God. An unbeliever is natural-born not being able to "receive" what Jesus preached. This poses an 'apparent' problem. How can then anyone get saved, become a child of God, be born-again?
Now this may sound Calvinistic, but we're not done, yet. God doesn't pick and choose who is to go to heaven. He is " willing that all men be saved."
I found that understanding God's ways, as you probably have, comes in steps. If we fail to understand or surrender to the first steps, God may hesitate in showing us the latter steps. So I ask you to have some patience with me.
We will get to Heb 6:4-6 soon. These verses lay the foundation, between which and others I have found no contradictions.
Now, I would ask, do you understand and believe this? (with the caviat, that more will given to balance out the apparent Calvinistic tenor). I am not a Calvinist, nor an Armenian, but perhaps one could say a little of both, or entirely neither.
-john
Sandy McCoy- Foust said:John
I did read verse 12 as well as 13..sorry, just didnt state that..Your question to me...
What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?Im not quite sure what you are saying.....could you explain further?..I have read and reread..John1:12&13..as well as Heb 6:4-6..and then your question once more...I have a clue but before I elaborate ..give me a little more to chew on please......Are you asking if I feel you need to choose ..to receive him... before we can become a child of God?
Thanks,
Sandy
John Bennett said:
Ryan:
If anyone desires to hear a version of this issue that they have never heard before, in which I have found no contradiction, which answers the Calvinist contention as well as the Armenian, that is only based on scripture and not opinion, if one can approach it with the faith of a child, then I would be willing to explain. If I'm wrong, then I ask others to show, by the scripture, me the error of my belief, and I will discard mine, or at least modify to conform to His.
I believe the Lord has showed me, and throughout my life a few others, the real Truth to explain these supposed unexplainables" from the scripture. The notion that no one will ever understand something, or that we must agree to disagree, I believe, is contrary to the very nature of God. The Lord desires to show us all truth, He also desires us all to be of the same mind. It is we who inhibit this goal, not Him. Therefore, I believe that the only obstacle to understanding anything about the gracious Lord is actually my own stubborness and unwillingness to admit that I may actually be wrong or that I may actually be lacjing in some knowledge of His ways. I would hope that all believers endeaver to maintain this form of humilty in their search for the Truth.
Is anyo0ne at least curious? If I sound proud, please, I try not to be. I am just so always filled with joy and excitiement when I believe that the Lord has show me a new gem of Truth. A flawless diamond of Truth, no matter how small. I would rather have one tiny diamond of truth that is absolutely pure, than a whole treasury of flawed precious stones.So what'll it be?
-john
Ryan Spear said:John,
I've been on both sides of the fence with the Arminian and Calvin beliefs. The subject is more of the tree of knowledge of good and evil than of the tree of life to discuss. In other words it has the potential to be divisive (relationship breaking). I love the subject though. Like Eve, the subject is good for spiritulal food, pleasent to the eyes and a subject to be desired to make one wise, to know what God knows.
I ate of this forbidden subject and my eyes were opened to my own pride. To think I once thought I had the power to tell God what to do, meaning He had to save me because I, yes "I" made the right choice... by the power of my own free will. Yup, God could have never saved me without my permission.
At the same time, I also believe God has the power to give everyone exactly what they want just as He gave Satan his own kingdom so that he could be like God.
When it comes to Heb 6:4-6, as it doesn't give any example of circumstances to getting to the fallen away point, I remember an older woman at the motel I was staying who stated she wanted nothing to do with God because of her messed up life circumstance she was in. If a person has a life comparable to Job and blames and curses God for thier missery, hardening thier hearts, especially at an older age, as I get older here myself in understanding this, yes I can see it is impossible to renew them to repentance.
John Bennett said:Sandy:
Actually vs 12 was my first point, not vs 13. And to fully understand how I view Heb 6:4-6 as for an unbeliever, we would have to explore a few more verses. What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?
This different understanding also explains the mystery of the argument between the Calvinists and the Armenians.
If not interested, I understand.
John
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Permalink Reply by Frank on
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I JUST NEED TO INSERT THIS PREFACE BEFORE POSTING, TO POINT OUT THAT I STARTED WRITING THE FOLLOWING REPLY TO RYAN'S COMMENT THIS MORNING AND THEN WENT TO WORK. I CAME HOME TO FINISH IT BUT BEFORE I COULD SEND IT, JOHN BENNETT STEPS IN.
JOHN AGAIN YOU TREAD ON MY TOES AND STEAL MY WORDS.
TO EVERYONE ELSE, I DON'T KNOW JOHN, AND I EXPECT WE ARE NOT ENTIRELY AGREED IN ALL THINGS. -WE WILL FIND OUT? NEVERTHELESS THESE THOUGHT ARE PRIOR TO HIS, BUT I MERELY DELAYED SENDING IT. THE SIMILARITY OF THOUGHT IS WORRYING!
Hi Ryan,
I understand why you say we need a new thread. Alternatively maybe you and I should just choose weapons and meet at dawn somewhere?
Maybe you could start a thread on what you perceive is the appropriate topic?
You said, Arminianism frightens you.
To me, Calvinism has destroyed much of Christian common sense and understanding. It is hugely dangerous to wisdom and leaves a passive thought pattern in much of the Church. I think it's perspective of God has closer relationship to Islam than Christianity! Inshallah! It is the will of God, etc.
However I also decry Arminianism which I presume is the description you make below. My comprehension of scripture is as far away from what you describe below as it is from Calvin!
Why do Christians have to seek after a hero theologian to belong to. This is exactly what Paul decried in 1Cor. "I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, I am of Cephas".
I for one, refuse to be labelled! Nobody is going to fix my beliefs to a dead man.
The church needs to grow up and learn of the Holy Spirit, who leads us to all truth.
Ryan, we are probably far apart on many things, but please do not depart the discussion, keep watching and adding as you see fit. Iron sharpens iron etc.
John Bennett has stated several times about avoiding pride, and this applies to me, you, and everyone here. Pride makes it impossible to hear God's gentle redirections in life.
Above all let us seek truth, even when we don't like it!
Blessings to you.
Frank, -from over the pond.
Ryan Spear said:
All,
We need to start a new topic if the site here is OK with the discussion of such a topic.
Adam was free to make a choice and died because of it.
Because of Adam were all born condemned. We would wake up every day to displease God no matter what good thing we did.
God gave the law to show us we could never earn salvation, no matter how strong our will is to keep them. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Jesus was necessary because we are too weak and evil to save ourselves.
Once saved, we are brought back into a relationship with God and in the position of Adam prior to the fall to where we, as Christians again can make a choice to please God. That choice includes the ability to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I don't see why anyone would but as they say, "there is one in every crowd."
Arminianism scares me because it ultimatly places salvation, or maybe the ability to stay saved after salvation by grace on my ability to hold on. A chain is as strong as its weakest link. If the Arminian doctrine is correct, I pray I don't go senile or get dimetia like my father-in-law or go out of my mind prior to death and forget or curse God.
Need new thread for this.
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Permalink Reply by Frank on
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I am surprised at the direction this has gone. However I guess that it is inevitable that the Arminian/ Calvinism subject would interlock with it. I don't mind too much with one request.-
Please can we avoid referring to either of these two dead people by name. I don't want to know what Calvin or Arminius said. If we uphold one of their doctrines, lets define it by specific scripture, and not by a dead man's words.
Neither of these two men have any authority in this debate. Nor does any other dead man, unless he happens to have a book of the bible named after him!
Let's find our faith in God's Word and in the Spirit, and if we are trying to expound something, keep it to the word and spirit. Yes, personal experience is equally valid for illustration, but only if backed by either common knowledge or by the specific word.
I believe that the OP is extremely significant, and the discussion has exposed loads of confusing ideas. If we are determined to seek God on this, we will find Him.
Frank
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Permalink Reply by Ryan Spear on
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If God be God, He must be sovereign above all and in control of all else He not be God.
God can do what He wants, to who ever He wants, how ever He wants, when ever He wants and there is nothing any one can do about it. God does not HAVE to save anyone. If God chooses to save only one person and no one else, He would be doing nothing unrighteous because everyone deserves judgement. If God only saves a few, He is being more than graceous and mercyful to those few. It is NOT unfair for God to save some and leaves others to be judged because that is what we all deserve.
Who blinded the Jews from being able to see Jesus as the Mesiah when He came? Rom 11:7-10
[7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the 'election' hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
[8] (According as it is written, GOD hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
[9] And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
[10] Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.Would it be evil of God to blind someone so they could not believe as He did with the Jews? NO! They deserve judgement and so do we.
Look what Jesus said to the unblieving Jews: John 10:24-26
[24] Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
[25] Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
[26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.They didn't believe because they were not His sheep because they were not (John 1:13) "born of God."
As Sandy brought up from John 10:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Also John 6:65 "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."Also John 3:36 "ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
(irresistable grace).So whose choice is it that a person can or will be saved? And how can any one fight against John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."
Who wants to call Jesus a liar? Who chose who?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?No mentioning of the names of the dead, the subject of God's sovereignty was certainly something that not only puts things in the proper perspective but put me in my place. After this study years ago, I was more appreciative of my slavetion than before and truely understood exactly the mercy and grace God bestowed to me and anyone else who believes.
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Permalink Reply by John Bennett on
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Sandy:
After taking the time to re-read the entire thread, I noticed the following from you:
"I just caught this!...Do you feel verse 9... thru 13 of John..chap 1..is connected to Heb. 6:4-6?"
Yes, indeed! And now you're getting ahead of me, prasie God!
Let me take a moment to say something a little off track. I have to say that it has been a priviledge and a joy to my heart to be allowed to share my belief and understanding of this one topic with you and others. I live in Mobile, AL and, though the IRC's are too numerous to number down here, I have very little fellowship with other believers who have a heart after God and His Truth like you and others here. Really, most "professing" believers that I run into think I'm a nut-case and rebel, but all I've ever desired in fellowship is to gather with a few around the presence of Jesus and discuss His word, seek His Truth, pray, sing, remember Him in the Lord's supper. Something informal, personal, face-to-face, sincere & simple, but all I seem to find is very entrenched, religious people, who are satisfied with 45min on Sundays. They don't even want to get together during the week and fellowship. Sometimes I think I must be a nut-case, or totally deceived, but then later, the Lord encourages me with tender verses.
And, Frank, thanks for the kind words. I'm beginning to wish that we lived closer. I just now read your recent comments and caught up again on the entire thread. When I respond/comment, I do so by clicking on the link inside the e-mail that the SC system sends to me and then it takes me directly to that particular writer, so I've not seen some of the comments until tonight.
OK, back on topic.
Yes, Sandy, Jhn 1:9 has a whole lot to do with Heb 6:4-6 (esp. vs.4).
Now to continue, "God is not willing that any perish", "the true light...which lighteth every man", "for God so loved the world", "he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.", "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.", "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." - and on.
These verses, as well as many more that I and others could list, demonstrate the heart of God. God's heart desires above all passions for everyone and anyone to come to Him, to be saved, born-again, become a new creation, a believer in Christ. However, this now presents an 'apparent' problem with what I have said so far, from the beginning, which I'm sure all are aware. Specifically, how could an unbeliever, whose will is in total bondage to sin & selfishness, ever choose to be with a God that is so totally unlike him/her? He/she can't, that is, on their own,in their own strength, power, will, choice, intelligence, desire - in any way.
And, knowing this state of lost mankind, why doesn't the all-loving, kind, God simply decide for us, or force His will upon us, save all mankind, every soul that has ever lived? Because it is not His lovely nature. He reaches out, He draws, He implores, He never gives up "until He hath found it." True love, and that is the final result of this whole creation, purpose of God, true love is completely voluntary on both parties. Ask your own heart and spirit before God if this isn't so. God does not desire robots, he does not force us to love Him, He asks, gentle as lamb, humbley and meekly, come to Me. He uses every possible way, throughout history, to reach mankind with the "lamb slain from the foundations of the world." But, just as we all desire true love, real, honest love from Him, He desires the same from humans, the new-creation kind. A Freely offered love from His own creation. This is also the same kind of love that exists between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They each serve and love each other. He wants to bring us into that eternal, loving relationship, that has already existed from before the beginning of time, before heaven and earth, before the angels.
SO, how does the unbeliever who will only choose sin because of his/her depraved state, freely choose God? And How can a very loving God draw these blind, deaf creatures without forcing them?
Please wait for the verses. God imparts a temporary measure of grace to every unbeliever, perhaps multiple times in their lives, so as to temporarily have "eyes to see, ears to hear" the message of the Saviour, to "receive Him."
As it is written, "for by grace have you been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
The "grace" in this verse is not the gift, but the faith to believe the message, is the gift. Grace is unmerritted favor, or, in other words, a gift. A totally free gift. It would be redundant, as in Jhn 1:12, for God to say that the gift is a gift. The "gift of God" is the faith. In God's love, "the love of Christ which passeth knowledge", God has seen the damage that Satan, Adam, and our own selves have inflicted on each one of us. The effect of the sinfulness of lost mankind is that we could never see Him, never hear His voice, never understand His message, or believe to be saved without help. And so, with everyone that has become a new creation in Christ, God, at some or many points in their lives has given the gift of faith to the depraved unbeliever so that they could, for at least a moment or short period (or many moments in their life), see the Truth, Receive the Truth, Believe the Truth. It would be unjust for God to require a lost person, with no possible way of choosing God on his/her own, to choose Him without some help. This is also how God will be just at the judgement. No one will be able to stand before Him and say that they never could see the Truth, because they were blind, or hear the Truth because they were deaf. He will show then, when it's too late for excuses, how he imparted a measure of faith (grace) to each and every person so that they could have a fair shot at receiving the Gospel message. It will also demonstrate how wretched and deserving of eternal torment everyone is who reject "so great salvation." God is not the author of confusion, but of peace. His ways are without contradiction, His justice is right. He is deep, but not complicated. This how we reconcile those two opposite, and archaic, beliefs that I'm not suppose to name.
Some more scripture. "it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God", Just as a measure of faith was imparted to my lost soul in order to even have an opportunity to believe for the first time, so also as a believer I live by the faith which is in Him, not myself. " So we, when an unbeliever, receive the grace and faith to believe for the first time, freely choose God, with his liberating Spirit's help; we then enter into Christ where "as we have received Christ Jesus, so walk in Him",
Now we return to Heb 6:4-6 and can see how it is possible that the person(s) in question, are actually unbelievers that have rejected ("fallen away" from) the finished work of Christ as being enough for their every need. They were all "enlightened" (by the "true light...that lighteth every man"), tasted of the heavenly gift (the faith to believe), "partakers of the Holy Spirit (known His presence working for them), tasted of the good word of God (understood the Gospel), and tasted of the powers of the age to come (total freedom & liberty from the bondages of sin - to see/hear and make a free will choice). Nut, if while having their eyes and ears opened for a moment, they still reject the Saviour and His work, His message, there is nothing else God can do for them. He has done everything possible, including, making it easy for them to receive and believe. And also, if one rejects the o'nce and for all people and for all time type of forgiveness', the alternative is only some form of repeated, partial form (name your 'favorite' religious requirement) that they go after (as described later in Hebrews), "crucifying the Son of God afresh" each time they seek additional forgiveness of sins, each day or week, trying to secure their supposed relationship with God so as to maintain that 'hoped for' entrance into heaven. The believer, once submitting to the Gospel, is assured hof is entrance into heaven forever. He doesn't have to have his sins confessed on his death bed, nor does he "hope" to go to heaven, but he/she knows that heaven is their home. "These things I have written unto you that you may know that you have eternal life." Not hope for, but know, now, on earth, before I die.
Well, as you can see, I have strange hours. There is more we can explore in Hebrews 6:4-8, Heb 10, Mat 7, Luk 14, etc. on this topic. Let me know what you want to do.
This third way of understanding the supposed paradox satisfies the main contentions of those two unmentionable (ha) positions. Total depravity vs. Free will choice. Only by a gift of faith can anyone ever choose Him. And that makes all the possible results fair.
I hope you have enjoyed this so far, I surely have. As the song goes, "I love to tell the story..."
-john
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okJohn...I agree with all you have said...now...im lost on the How can then anyone get saved, become a child of God, be born-again?
Isnt being "Born Again"...meaning..new creation?......He draws us...no one comes to the father unless they are drawn...we all have a void..because of the fall... only He can fill it.....so He draws...we surrender..our heart is no longer wicked...once He is within us...we feel "Born Again"...
Am i making any sense?
Sandy
John Bennett said:Sandy:
Yes, we must "receive Him" (his message) before we can "become." Let me elaborate.
If "as many as received Him" means the same thing as "the right to become the children of God", the the staement would be redundant. I believe that "as many as received Him" means 'as many as received His message.' In other words, 'if anyone receives what He is preaching/thegospel (accept it, surrender to it, etc.), then they can receive the "right" to become a child of God.' It sounds basic, but I believe the Holy Spirit worded it that way to make a point. An unbeliever has to first understand, receive, accept, and surrender to what Jesus was preaching before he can even have the right (eternal, spritual right) to even become a child of God. The surrendering to the message of the gospel gives a person the spiritual/eternal right to become a child of God. And within vs. 12, the unbeliever is not yet a believer. We have to next go to vs. 13 for that.
Now vs. 13, to me says some very profound (as all of God's Word), things. When an unbeliever becomes a believer, it is "who were not born of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." This to me is very profound. I understand it to mean these things:
The "of blood" means the family blood-line. One cannot become a believer just because his/her parents are/were. It is an individual/personal, one-on-one with God experience.
The "will oif the flesh" (in an unbeliever) is the 'wants and desires' of the lost, darkened heart. Unbelievers cannot get saved, born-again, become a child of God just because it's what they want. That is out of the depraved, darkened, evil/wicked wants & desires of the lost heart it is impossible to want God.
The "will of man" (in an unbliever) is the 'determinations, will-power, choice' of the lost, darkened mind. That is out of the depraved, darkened, evil/wicked thoughts of the lost mind it is impossible to choose God.Remember all the scriptures from Jeremiah about "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it" and Romans 3:10-18. These, among many others you're porobably familiar with, demonstrate the total depravity of man. Man, in his unbelieving state, cannot nor does he/she desire to seek after God. An unbeliever is natural-born not being able to "receive" what Jesus preached. This poses an 'apparent' problem. How can then anyone get saved, become a child of God, be born-again?
Now this may sound Calvinistic, but we're not done, yet. God doesn't pick and choose who is to go to heaven. He is " willing that all men be saved."
I found that understanding God's ways, as you probably have, comes in steps. If we fail to understand or surrender to the first steps, God may hesitate in showing us the latter steps. So I ask you to have some patience with me.
We will get to Heb 6:4-6 soon. These verses lay the foundation, between which and others I have found no contradictions.
Now, I would ask, do you understand and believe this? (with the caviat, that more will given to balance out the apparent Calvinistic tenor). I am not a Calvinist, nor an Armenian, but perhaps one could say a little of both, or entirely neither.
-john
Sandy McCoy- Foust said:John
I did read verse 12 as well as 13..sorry, just didnt state that..Your question to me...
What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?Im not quite sure what you are saying.....could you explain further?..I have read and reread..John1:12&13..as well as Heb 6:4-6..and then your question once more...I have a clue but before I elaborate ..give me a little more to chew on please......Are you asking if I feel you need to choose ..to receive him... before we can become a child of God?
Thanks,
Sandy
John Bennett said:
Ryan:
If anyone desires to hear a version of this issue that they have never heard before, in which I have found no contradiction, which answers the Calvinist contention as well as the Armenian, that is only based on scripture and not opinion, if one can approach it with the faith of a child, then I would be willing to explain. If I'm wrong, then I ask others to show, by the scripture, me the error of my belief, and I will discard mine, or at least modify to conform to His.
I believe the Lord has showed me, and throughout my life a few others, the real Truth to explain these supposed unexplainables" from the scripture. The notion that no one will ever understand something, or that we must agree to disagree, I believe, is contrary to the very nature of God. The Lord desires to show us all truth, He also desires us all to be of the same mind. It is we who inhibit this goal, not Him. Therefore, I believe that the only obstacle to understanding anything about the gracious Lord is actually my own stubborness and unwillingness to admit that I may actually be wrong or that I may actually be lacjing in some knowledge of His ways. I would hope that all believers endeaver to maintain this form of humilty in their search for the Truth.
Is anyo0ne at least curious? If I sound proud, please, I try not to be. I am just so always filled with joy and excitiement when I believe that the Lord has show me a new gem of Truth. A flawless diamond of Truth, no matter how small. I would rather have one tiny diamond of truth that is absolutely pure, than a whole treasury of flawed precious stones.So what'll it be?
-john
Ryan Spear said:John,
I've been on both sides of the fence with the Arminian and Calvin beliefs. The subject is more of the tree of knowledge of good and evil than of the tree of life to discuss. In other words it has the potential to be divisive (relationship breaking). I love the subject though. Like Eve, the subject is good for spiritulal food, pleasent to the eyes and a subject to be desired to make one wise, to know what God knows.
I ate of this forbidden subject and my eyes were opened to my own pride. To think I once thought I had the power to tell God what to do, meaning He had to save me because I, yes "I" made the right choice... by the power of my own free will. Yup, God could have never saved me without my permission.
At the same time, I also believe God has the power to give everyone exactly what they want just as He gave Satan his own kingdom so that he could be like God.
When it comes to Heb 6:4-6, as it doesn't give any example of circumstances to getting to the fallen away point, I remember an older woman at the motel I was staying who stated she wanted nothing to do with God because of her messed up life circumstance she was in. If a person has a life comparable to Job and blames and curses God for thier missery, hardening thier hearts, especially at an older age, as I get older here myself in understanding this, yes I can see it is impossible to renew them to repentance.
John Bennett said:Sandy:
Actually vs 12 was my first point, not vs 13. And to fully understand how I view Heb 6:4-6 as for an unbeliever, we would have to explore a few more verses. What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?
This different understanding also explains the mystery of the argument between the Calvinists and the Armenians.
If not interested, I understand.
John
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Permalink Reply by Frank on
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Ryan,
You said,
"If God be God, He must be sovereign above all and in control of all, else He not be God."
Nobody doubts that God can do anything he wants, so please don't act as if anyone is saying otherwise. However scripture is full of places where things happen totally against God's sovereign and express will.
Having opened with the above statement, you then go on to make all sorts of scenario for God, which obviously go entirely against his own declared intentions!
Ryan said
"God can do what He wants, to who ever He wants, how ever He wants, when ever He wants and there is nothing any one can do about it. God does not HAVE to save anyone. If God chooses to save only one person and no one else, He would be doing nothing unrighteous because everyone deserves judgement. If God only saves a few, He is being more than graceous and mercyful to those few. It is NOT unfair for God to save some and leaves others to be judged because that is what we all deserve."
Now consider the above statement in the light of these two verses and see whether it holds water. Is God likely to act in accordance with the above statement of your personal belief of his character, given what he actually says below, which totally contradicts you?
John3v16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1Tim2v3-
(God)....Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.These two verses amongst many many more, demonstrate the fallacy of your belief.
If scripture makes it clear that God would have ALL men to be saved, but at the same time declares that all men are NOT saved, this is not in the least contradictory, nor in the slightest does it reduce the sovereignty of God!
The apparent contradiction in God wanting men to be saved, and not achieving it, merely illustrates that other factors are also in play, and that those other factors are also part of God's sovereign and chosen method of ruling over his creation.
That factor is written in the opening chapters of the bible, and everywhere else throughout it's length. That factor is called freewill.
Ryan Spear said:
If God be God, He must be sovereign above all and in control of all else He not be God.
God can do what He wants, to who ever He wants, how ever He wants, when ever He wants and there is nothing any one can do about it. God does not HAVE to save anyone. If God chooses to save only one person and no one else, He would be doing nothing unrighteous because everyone deserves judgement. If God only saves a few, He is being more than graceous and mercyful to those few. It is NOT unfair for God to save some and leaves others to be judged because that is what we all deserve.
Who blinded the Jews from being able to see Jesus as the Mesiah when He came? Rom 11:7-10
[7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the 'election' hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
[8] (According as it is written, GOD hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
[9] And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
[10] Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.Would it be evil of God to blind someone so they could not believe as He did with the Jews? NO! They deserve judgement and so do we.
Look what Jesus said to the unblieving Jews: John 10:24-26
[24] Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
[25] Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
[26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.They didn't believe because they were not His sheep because they were not (John 1:13) "born of God."
As Sandy brought up from John 10:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Also John 6:65 "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."Also John 3:36 "ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
(irresistable grace).So whose choice is it that a person can or will be saved? And how can any one fight against John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."
Who wants to call Jesus a liar? Who chose who?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?No mentioning of the names of the dead, the subject of God's sovereignty was certainly something that not only puts things in the proper perspective but put me in my place. After this study years ago, I was more appreciative of my slavetion than before and truely understood exactly the mercy and grace God bestowed to me and anyone else who believes.
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Permalink Reply by Sandy McCoy- Foust on
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John,
Well how exciting!...I love to search deep (deep calls unto deep)!..As i was reading John 1:12 & 13 & Heb. 6:4-6 as you suggested...I always like to read the before and after scrips as well, to help me grab hold!..(im sure most of us do)...of course the word ENLIGHTENED in verse 9 of John stood out to me! beings it is repeated in Hebrews.This is something to really think about!...I am always open to more, & more revelation!..Since I have found so much of what i always believed to be true (a few years back)....false!.....Another scripture that I feel relates to what you are saying is Romans 11:vs.34-36....34 " For who has known the mind of the Lord or who became His counselor,(35) or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to Him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things To Him be the Glory forever. This scripture stood out to me years ago when I was still in the IC...which made me start thinking...every spiritual thought we have..faith..love... giving..etc...is not our doing...but HIS!..This all stems from within and flows out..because it is from, through, and to HIM..We were being taught to DO..and my heart was saying just BE!.. and it will flow......I posted a blog on here a year or 2 ago on this scripture..
What do you think?
Sandy
John Bennett said:
Sandy:
After taking the time to re-read the entire thread, I noticed the following from you:
"I just caught this!...Do you feel verse 9... thru 13 of John..chap 1..is connected to Heb. 6:4-6?"
Yes, indeed! And now you're getting ahead of me, prasie God!
Let me take a moment to say something a little off track. I have to say that it has been a priviledge and a joy to my heart to be allowed to share my belief and understanding of this one topic with you and others. I live in Mobile, AL and, though the IRC's are too numerous to number down here, I have very little fellowship with other believers who have a heart after God and His Truth like you and others here. Really, most "professing" believers that I run into think I'm a nut-case and rebel, but all I've ever desired in fellowship is to gather with a few around the presence of Jesus and discuss His word, seek His Truth, pray, sing, remember Him in the Lord's supper. Something informal, personal, face-to-face, sincere & simple, but all I seem to find is very entrenched, religious people, who are satisfied with 45min on Sundays. They don't even want to get together during the week and fellowship. Sometimes I think I must be a nut-case, or totally deceived, but then later, the Lord encourages me with tender verses.
And, Frank, thanks for the kind words. I'm beginning to wish that we lived closer. I just now read your recent comments and caught up again on the entire thread. When I respond/comment, I do so by clicking on the link inside the e-mail that the SC system sends to me and then it takes me directly to that particular writer, so I've not seen some of the comments until tonight.
OK, back on topic.
Yes, Sandy, Jhn 1:9 has a whole lot to do with Heb 6:4-6 (esp. vs.4).
Now to continue, "God is not willing that any perish", "the true light...which lighteth every man", "for God so loved the world", "he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.", "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.", "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." - and on.
These verses, as well as many more that I and others could list, demonstrate the heart of God. God's heart desires above all passions for everyone and anyone to come to Him, to be saved, born-again, become a new creation, a believer in Christ. However, this now presents an 'apparent' problem with what I have said so far, from the beginning, which I'm sure all are aware. Specifically, how could an unbeliever, whose will is in total bondage to sin & selfishness, ever choose to be with a God that is so totally unlike him/her? He/she can't, that is, on their own,in their own strength, power, will, choice, intelligence, desire - in any way.
And, knowing this state of lost mankind, why doesn't the all-loving, kind, God simply decide for us, or force His will upon us, save all mankind, every soul that has ever lived? Because it is not His lovely nature. He reaches out, He draws, He implores, He never gives up "until He hath found it." True love, and that is the final result of this whole creation, purpose of God, true love is completely voluntary on both parties. Ask your own heart and spirit before God if this isn't so. God does not desire robots, he does not force us to love Him, He asks, gentle as lamb, humbley and meekly, come to Me. He uses every possible way, throughout history, to reach mankind with the "lamb slain from the foundations of the world." But, just as we all desire true love, real, honest love from Him, He desires the same from humans, the new-creation kind. A Freely offered love from His own creation. This is also the same kind of love that exists between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They each serve and love each other. He wants to bring us into that eternal, loving relationship, that has already existed from before the beginning of time, before heaven and earth, before the angels.
SO, how does the unbeliever who will only choose sin because of his/her depraved state, freely choose God? And How can a very loving God draw these blind, deaf creatures without forcing them?
Please wait for the verses. God imparts a temporary measure of grace to every unbeliever, perhaps multiple times in their lives, so as to temporarily have "eyes to see, ears to hear" the message of the Saviour, to "receive Him."
As it is written, "for by grace have you been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
The "grace" in this verse is not the gift, but the faith to believe the message, is the gift. Grace is unmerritted favor, or, in other words, a gift. A totally free gift. It would be redundant, as in Jhn 1:12, for God to say that the gift is a gift. The "gift of God" is the faith. In God's love, "the love of Christ which passeth knowledge", God has seen the damage that Satan, Adam, and our own selves have inflicted on each one of us. The effect of the sinfulness of lost mankind is that we could never see Him, never hear His voice, never understand His message, or believe to be saved without help. And so, with everyone that has become a new creation in Christ, God, at some or many points in their lives has given the gift of faith to the depraved unbeliever so that they could, for at least a moment or short period (or many moments in their life), see the Truth, Receive the Truth, Believe the Truth. It would be unjust for God to require a lost person, with no possible way of choosing God on his/her own, to choose Him without some help. This is also how God will be just at the judgement. No one will be able to stand before Him and say that they never could see the Truth, because they were blind, or hear the Truth because they were deaf. He will show then, when it's too late for excuses, how he imparted a measure of faith (grace) to each and every person so that they could have a fair shot at receiving the Gospel message. It will also demonstrate how wretched and deserving of eternal torment everyone is who reject "so great salvation." God is not the author of confusion, but of peace. His ways are without contradiction, His justice is right. He is deep, but not complicated. This how we reconcile those two opposite, and archaic, beliefs that I'm not suppose to name.
Some more scripture. "it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God", Just as a measure of faith was imparted to my lost soul in order to even have an opportunity to believe for the first time, so also as a believer I live by the faith which is in Him, not myself. " So we, when an unbeliever, receive the grace and faith to believe for the first time, freely choose God, with his liberating Spirit's help; we then enter into Christ where "as we have received Christ Jesus, so walk in Him",
Now we return to Heb 6:4-6 and can see how it is possible that the person(s) in question, are actually unbelievers that have rejected ("fallen away" from) the finished work of Christ as being enough for their every need. They were all "enlightened" (by the "true light...that lighteth every man"), tasted of the heavenly gift (the faith to believe), "partakers of the Holy Spirit (known His presence working for them), tasted of the good word of God (understood the Gospel), and tasted of the powers of the age to come (total freedom & liberty from the bondages of sin - to see/hear and make a free will choice). Nut, if while having their eyes and ears opened for a moment, they still reject the Saviour and His work, His message, there is nothing else God can do for them. He has done everything possible, including, making it easy for them to receive and believe. And also, if one rejects the o'nce and for all people and for all time type of forgiveness', the alternative is only some form of repeated, partial form (name your 'favorite' religious requirement) that they go after (as described later in Hebrews), "crucifying the Son of God afresh" each time they seek additional forgiveness of sins, each day or week, trying to secure their supposed relationship with God so as to maintain that 'hoped for' entrance into heaven. The believer, once submitting to the Gospel, is assured hof is entrance into heaven forever. He doesn't have to have his sins confessed on his death bed, nor does he "hope" to go to heaven, but he/she knows that heaven is their home. "These things I have written unto you that you may know that you have eternal life." Not hope for, but know, now, on earth, before I die.
Well, as you can see, I have strange hours. There is more we can explore in Hebrews 6:4-8, Heb 10, Mat 7, Luk 14, etc. on this topic. Let me know what you want to do.
This third way of understanding the supposed paradox satisfies the main contentions of those two unmentionable (ha) positions. Total depravity vs. Free will choice. Only by a gift of faith can anyone ever choose Him. And that makes all the possible results fair.
I hope you have enjoyed this so far, I surely have. As the song goes, "I love to tell the story..."
-john
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okJohn...I agree with all you have said...now...im lost on the How can then anyone get saved, become a child of God, be born-again?
Isnt being "Born Again"...meaning..new creation?......He draws us...no one comes to the father unless they are drawn...we all have a void..because of the fall... only He can fill it.....so He draws...we surrender..our heart is no longer wicked...once He is within us...we feel "Born Again"...
Am i making any sense?
Sandy
John Bennett said:Sandy:
Yes, we must "receive Him" (his message) before we can "become." Let me elaborate.
If "as many as received Him" means the same thing as "the right to become the children of God", the the staement would be redundant. I believe that "as many as received Him" means 'as many as received His message.' In other words, 'if anyone receives what He is preaching/thegospel (accept it, surrender to it, etc.), then they can receive the "right" to become a child of God.' It sounds basic, but I believe the Holy Spirit worded it that way to make a point. An unbeliever has to first understand, receive, accept, and surrender to what Jesus was preaching before he can even have the right (eternal, spritual right) to even become a child of God. The surrendering to the message of the gospel gives a person the spiritual/eternal right to become a child of God. And within vs. 12, the unbeliever is not yet a believer. We have to next go to vs. 13 for that.
Now vs. 13, to me says some very profound (as all of God's Word), things. When an unbeliever becomes a believer, it is "who were not born of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." This to me is very profound. I understand it to mean these things:
The "of blood" means the family blood-line. One cannot become a believer just because his/her parents are/were. It is an individual/personal, one-on-one with God experience.
The "will oif the flesh" (in an unbeliever) is the 'wants and desires' of the lost, darkened heart. Unbelievers cannot get saved, born-again, become a child of God just because it's what they want. That is out of the depraved, darkened, evil/wicked wants & desires of the lost heart it is impossible to want God.
The "will of man" (in an unbliever) is the 'determinations, will-power, choice' of the lost, darkened mind. That is out of the depraved, darkened, evil/wicked thoughts of the lost mind it is impossible to choose God.Remember all the scriptures from Jeremiah about "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it" and Romans 3:10-18. These, among many others you're porobably familiar with, demonstrate the total depravity of man. Man, in his unbelieving state, cannot nor does he/she desire to seek after God. An unbeliever is natural-born not being able to "receive" what Jesus preached. This poses an 'apparent' problem. How can then anyone get saved, become a child of God, be born-again?
Now this may sound Calvinistic, but we're not done, yet. God doesn't pick and choose who is to go to heaven. He is " willing that all men be saved."
I found that understanding God's ways, as you probably have, comes in steps. If we fail to understand or surrender to the first steps, God may hesitate in showing us the latter steps. So I ask you to have some patience with me.
We will get to Heb 6:4-6 soon. These verses lay the foundation, between which and others I have found no contradictions.
Now, I would ask, do you understand and believe this? (with the caviat, that more will given to balance out the apparent Calvinistic tenor). I am not a Calvinist, nor an Armenian, but perhaps one could say a little of both, or entirely neither.
-john
Sandy McCoy- Foust said:John
I did read verse 12 as well as 13..sorry, just didnt state that..Your question to me...
What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?Im not quite sure what you are saying.....could you explain further?..I have read and reread..John1:12&13..as well as Heb 6:4-6..and then your question once more...I have a clue but before I elaborate ..give me a little more to chew on please......Are you asking if I feel you need to choose ..to receive him... before we can become a child of God?
Thanks,
Sandy
John Bennett said:
Ryan:
If anyone desires to hear a version of this issue that they have never heard before, in which I have found no contradiction, which answers the Calvinist contention as well as the Armenian, that is only based on scripture and not opinion, if one can approach it with the faith of a child, then I would be willing to explain. If I'm wrong, then I ask others to show, by the scripture, me the error of my belief, and I will discard mine, or at least modify to conform to His.
I believe the Lord has showed me, and throughout my life a few others, the real Truth to explain these supposed unexplainables" from the scripture. The notion that no one will ever understand something, or that we must agree to disagree, I believe, is contrary to the very nature of God. The Lord desires to show us all truth, He also desires us all to be of the same mind. It is we who inhibit this goal, not Him. Therefore, I believe that the only obstacle to understanding anything about the gracious Lord is actually my own stubborness and unwillingness to admit that I may actually be wrong or that I may actually be lacjing in some knowledge of His ways. I would hope that all believers endeaver to maintain this form of humilty in their search for the Truth.
Is anyo0ne at least curious? If I sound proud, please, I try not to be. I am just so always filled with joy and excitiement when I believe that the Lord has show me a new gem of Truth. A flawless diamond of Truth, no matter how small. I would rather have one tiny diamond of truth that is absolutely pure, than a whole treasury of flawed precious stones.So what'll it be?
-john
Ryan Spear said:John,
I've been on both sides of the fence with the Arminian and Calvin beliefs. The subject is more of the tree of knowledge of good and evil than of the tree of life to discuss. In other words it has the potential to be divisive (relationship breaking). I love the subject though. Like Eve, the subject is good for spiritulal food, pleasent to the eyes and a subject to be desired to make one wise, to know what God knows.
I ate of this forbidden subject and my eyes were opened to my own pride. To think I once thought I had the power to tell God what to do, meaning He had to save me because I, yes "I" made the right choice... by the power of my own free will. Yup, God could have never saved me without my permission.
At the same time, I also believe God has the power to give everyone exactly what they want just as He gave Satan his own kingdom so that he could be like God.
When it comes to Heb 6:4-6, as it doesn't give any example of circumstances to getting to the fallen away point, I remember an older woman at the motel I was staying who stated she wanted nothing to do with God because of her messed up life circumstance she was in. If a person has a life comparable to Job and blames and curses God for thier missery, hardening thier hearts, especially at an older age, as I get older here myself in understanding this, yes I can see it is impossible to renew them to repentance.
John Bennett said:Sandy:
Actually vs 12 was my first point, not vs 13. And to fully understand how I view Heb 6:4-6 as for an unbeliever, we would have to explore a few more verses. What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?
This different understanding also explains the mystery of the argument between the Calvinists and the Armenians.
If not interested, I understand.
John
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