Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit
Reading a comment here recently, I was reminded of the different reactions I have encountered from various believers and churches to "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit", and the "unforgivable sin".
I have also seen many lovely Christians in great fear and bondage because they are convinced they have committed the unforgivable sin.
I really just wanted to raise a discussion on the subject.
For myself, I am firm in my belief that I can never ever commit the unforgivable sin! However, I am sure some will think this is pride.
Views: 931
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Sandy McCoy- Foust on -
Im a little confused here John...The verse in Hebrews is talking to those who were once enlightened,tasted the heavenly gift,made partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come. In my eyes, a mature Christian....How can they be an unbeliever?
John Bennett said:
Sandy:
Unless the blasphemy that Paul did ignorantly wasn't "blaspheming the Holy Spirit." See Col 3:8, 1Ti1:20.
Also, I have a completely differenet take on Heb 6:4-6, that the person there in question is an unbeliever. Some other verses, like Jhn 1:12-13 help me understand that.
just a thought or two,
john
Sandy McCoy- Foust said:Jesus proclaimed that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was the one unpardonable sin (Matt. 12:31-32). Yet Paul said he obtained mercy because he "did it ignorantly in unbelief" (1Tim. 1:13) This shows that even the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit depends upon whether or not you did it knowingly.
You can't renounce your salvation ignorantly! That's what Hebrews 6:4-6 is saying. You have to be a mature christian who was drawn by the Spirit, born again, baptized in the Holy Ghost, mature in the word, and operating in the gifts of the Spirit before you can reject the Lord. Only then are you held accountable.
This is a script from Andrew Wommack's new book, "Spirit, Soul & Body"....(which I totally recommend reading....So Good!!)....And this makes sense to me...
Just my two cents!
Blessings Brothers!
Sista Sandy :)
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Permalink Reply by Sandy McCoy- Foust on
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Well Frank..I cannot imagine a mature believer doing so either.....Before someone could renounce or reject so great a salvation they would have to become hardened...Do you know any mature Christians..who have backslid...turned back to worldly ways?...I do...Altho I believe the Lord has not given up on her...(He didnt me..& I was once there as well)..staying in sin over a long period of time can dull your perception, wisdom,and understanding of who you are in the Spirit. & over time cause you to reject.or renounce what you once believed....Romans 1:28,32 says God takes away the conviction of the Holy Spirit when someone rejects their salvation....She was drawn by God (John 6:44)...enlightened..partaked..tasted the good word of God as Heb 6:4-6 says.....you are right, there is only one sacrifice...so where does this leave her...if she falls away,rejects and renounces, as this scripture says, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.
I pray Im wrong in my thinking here..I love this girl...& cant believe anyone in their "right mind" could ever reject the lord once personally knowing Him. But shes not in her right mind right now...Shes in the enemys camp and hes there to steal kill & destroy! Please pray for her.
Sista Sandy
Frank said:
Sandy McCoy- Foust said:
You have to be a mature christian who was drawn by the Spirit, born again, baptized in the Holy Ghost, mature in the word, and operating in the gifts of the Spirit before you can reject the Lord. Only then are you held accountable.
Sandy,
Thanks for commenting, but-
would not rejecting the Lord be the first sign that you are completely lacking in maturity?
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Permalink Reply by Sandy McCoy- Foust on
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Frank...I also believe that we,as blood bought,& having the finished work of the cross that, sinful actions,mistakes,losing our composure is not gonna take away our salvation..as we are saved by grace, not our works...but renouncing and rejecting The Holy Spirit can..
My what a touchy subject this is!..What am I doing here?? hahaha...There will always be different views on this topic
Blessings!
Sandy
Frank said:
You will see by my previous comment that I do not believe that a born again person can blaspheme the Holy Spirit. This is because he has already passed from death into life. He has done this by assenting to the approaches of the Holy Spirit within his heart. The seed is planted, and will bring forth fruit.
If after receiving ETERNAL LIFE I can lose it through a mistake, THEN IT IS HARDLY ETERNAL! Neither can God claim that we are "kept by the power of God" if he discards us when we lose our composure about something.
Hebrews6 is a rhetorical question. He is saying that if someone falls away, they cannot be born again, AGAIN, otherwise it would require another sacrifice of Jesus. The first birth is sufficient, implying that what Jesus did on Calvary, had to be redone would bring the work of the cross to shame.
The writer is just making it clear that the one sacrifice does it all, for ever, even when someone messes up. There is no other sacrifice available. IT IS FINISHED!
Look at the prodigal son. Even when he was eating with the pigs, he was still a blood born son. He was simply out of fellowship and at a very long arms length from his father. Throughout the journey of the prodigal son, he was always a son. The same is true for us, we are always sons (inc daughters).
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Permalink Reply by John Bennett on -
Sandy:
The Lord Jesus has shown me scripture, the meaning thereof, that can explain how this is an unbeliever, without contradicting other scripture. I have no pet beliefs, no stubborn adherence to a particular ministry, but I only want the absolute, "peaceable" truth from God.
It may take a little patience and some meditation, but I have have found wonderful peace of mind since learning about these difficult veres (and others). Try not to get distracted. Let me begin with Jhn 1:12-13 (there are more).
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Note that those who "were born...of God", first (1) received Him, then (2) received the right, then (3) believed, then finally actually (4) became children of God.What do you think of that thought?
-john
Sandy McCoy- Foust said:
Frank...I also believe that we,as blood bought,& having the finished work of the cross that, sinful actions,mistakes,losing our composure is not gonna take away our salvation..as we are saved by grace, not our works...but renouncing and rejecting The Holy Spirit can..
My what a touchy subject this is!..What am I doing here?? hahaha...There will always be different views on this topic
Blessings!
Sandy
Frank said:
You will see by my previous comment that I do not believe that a born again person can blaspheme the Holy Spirit. This is because he has already passed from death into life. He has done this by assenting to the approaches of the Holy Spirit within his heart. The seed is planted, and will bring forth fruit.
If after receiving ETERNAL LIFE I can lose it through a mistake, THEN IT IS HARDLY ETERNAL! Neither can God claim that we are "kept by the power of God" if he discards us when we lose our composure about something.
Hebrews6 is a rhetorical question. He is saying that if someone falls away, they cannot be born again, AGAIN, otherwise it would require another sacrifice of Jesus. The first birth is sufficient, implying that what Jesus did on Calvary, had to be redone would bring the work of the cross to shame.
The writer is just making it clear that the one sacrifice does it all, for ever, even when someone messes up. There is no other sacrifice available. IT IS FINISHED!
Look at the prodigal son. Even when he was eating with the pigs, he was still a blood born son. He was simply out of fellowship and at a very long arms length from his father. Throughout the journey of the prodigal son, he was always a son. The same is true for us, we are always sons (inc daughters).
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Permalink Reply by John Bennett on
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Brook:
I like the simplicity of that answer. I can't recall such an event happening in my experience. Especially with someone saying that the casting out didn't come by God, but by Satan. And Jesus further explained that if Satan casts out Satan, then his house will fall. I wonder if the great deceiver is capable of casting out another demon at all. I've always thought that it would be a great deception of his to cast out one of his own so that others would follow the wrong path. Perhaps I was wrong, and he really can't do that. Hmmm, I'll be meditating on this in the scriptures. Thanks.
-john
Brook Potter said:The Pharisee were Accusing Jesus of doing Miracles by being the Prince of Devils.
So Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, in my opinion, is attributing to Satan the miracles and power of the Holy Spirit.
To my understanding only a Believer can Blaspheme the Holy Spirit - Because only a believer would believe in Satan and in the Holy Spirit to make a judgement on such a matter.
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Permalink Reply by Frank on
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John
Jesus asked the Pharisees by whom did they cast out demons. Therefore it is safe to assume that they did so via some sort of mumbo jumbo, religious exorcism ceremony like many other religions (including Christians). Chanting, holy water, oaths, talismans, physical abuse etc.
However from what Jesus implied, they definitely did NOT cast them out by the power of God.
The basic principle of exorcism is to invoke a higher power to enter and drive out the unwanted inhabitant. As Christians, we have the highest power, the "name above all names". This title is most significant and would be clearly understood by all at that time. There is no other name under heaven! The use of the title was deliberate and juxtaposed Jesus fair and square set against the god of this world and all his evil hierarchy.
JESUS IS FAR ABOVE ALL PRINCIPALITY, POWER, MIGHT, AND DOMINION, AND EVERY NAME THAT IS NAMED.
The practice in the pagan world would be for a priest to invoke another name from further up the hierarchy of the gods. This new god would be invoked one way or another to drive out the troublesome spirit. Of course, all that happens is that the person becomes demonised by an even more powerful spirit. It may well be that there is seen to be a victory of sorts, as the senior demon establishes internal dominion over the previous ruler. It would be entirely within the realms of deception for the senior demon to use this exorcism to get entry, therefore he would encourage the deception in order to demonstrate his power, and gain adherents and worship.
John Bennett said:Brook:
I like the simplicity of that answer. I can't recall such an event happening in my experience. Especially with someone saying that the casting out didn't come by God, but by Satan. And Jesus further explained that if Satan casts out Satan, then his house will fall. I wonder if the great deceiver is capable of casting out another demon at all. I've always thought that it would be a great deception of his to cast out one of his own so that others would follow the wrong path. Perhaps I was wrong, and he really can't do that. Hmmm, I'll be meditating on this in the scriptures. Thanks.
-john
Brook Potter said:The Pharisee were Accusing Jesus of doing Miracles by being the Prince of Devils.
So Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, in my opinion, is attributing to Satan the miracles and power of the Holy Spirit.
To my understanding only a Believer can Blaspheme the Holy Spirit - Because only a believer would believe in Satan and in the Holy Spirit to make a judgement on such a matter.
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Permalink Reply by John Bennett on
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Frank:
I'm still with you on this.
What you just described is what I have always believed. I was just being honest about my thoughts. I abhor stubborness in regards to personal, pet, biased beliefs. Stubborness is "as the sin of witchcraft" and I endeavor to never be guilty of such . I only want the final absolute truth from God himself, no matter what I currently believe. When I'm wrong in a particular belief on a topic, I want to maintain an humble attitude such that I can confess my error, repent of my false belief, accept the correction and continue on, building on "our most holy faith." I believe that many, many troubles amongst believers come from stubborn, biased beliefs, desires to promote oneself and personally biased "ministries." I look forward to the day when the "Judge of all the earth shall do right" and the "judgement seat of Christ" where we will all finally know the final end result of all the disagreements. For now, I can only have peace in my mind if what I believe agrees with everything else that I believe, without any scriptural contradiction. All else I must hold with an open and unclenched fist.
Now, in regard to what you've said, I have seen it the same way. I believe that Satan can cast out demons, only to replace them with other demons. For example, the man who cleaned out his house, and the seven more stronger demons entered in, and the last state was worse than the first. This passage seems along those lines. It is scripture like these that I need to see to accept anyone's point. Simple historical references to other writers and books or fleshly reasoning is not enough for me. My house must be built "upon the rock", the "foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ being the Chief Cornerstone." All else is alternatingly amusing and irritating, but not eternal.I suspect that there are more scriptures to support our position, but at the moment, I am a little exhausted with the discussion. I've also sensed that I haven't much further scripture to help out, for now. So, for now, I'll wait and see if others can bring some more light to the discussion with scripture.
By the way, did you ever think that you would get this much activity from the original statement/question?! Ha.
If I might ask, could you expound a little more along the lines of "in His name" and the casting out? I sense there is some further help on this topic in there.-john
John
Jesus asked the Pharisees by whom did they cast out demons. Therefore it is safe to assume that they did so via some sort of mumbo jumbo, religious exorcism ceremony like many other religions (including Christians). Chanting, holy water, oaths, talismans, physical abuse etc.
However from what Jesus implied, they definitely did NOT cast them out by the power of God.
The basic principle of exorcism is to invoke a higher power to enter and drive out the unwanted inhabitant. As Christians, we have the highest power, the "name above all names". This title is most significant and would be clearly understood by all at that time. There is no other name under heaven! The use of the title was deliberate and juxtaposed Jesus fair and square set against the god of this world and all his evil hierarchy.
JESUS IS FAR ABOVE ALL PRINCIPALITY, POWER, MIGHT, AND DOMINION, AND EVERY NAME THAT IS NAMED.
The practice in the pagan world would be for a priest to invoke another name from further up the hierarchy of the gods. This new god would be invoked one way or another to drive out the troublesome spirit. Of course, all that happens is that the person becomes demonised by an even more powerful spirit. It may well be that there is seen to be a victory of sorts, as the senior demon establishes internal dominion over the previous ruler. It would be entirely within the realms of deception for the senior demon to use this exorcism to get entry, therefore he would encourage the deception in order to demonstrate his power, and gain adherents and worship.
John Bennett said:Brook:
I like the simplicity of that answer. I can't recall such an event happening in my experience. Especially with someone saying that the casting out didn't come by God, but by Satan. And Jesus further explained that if Satan casts out Satan, then his house will fall. I wonder if the great deceiver is capable of casting out another demon at all. I've always thought that it would be a great deception of his to cast out one of his own so that others would follow the wrong path. Perhaps I was wrong, and he really can't do that. Hmmm, I'll be meditating on this in the scriptures. Thanks.
-john
Brook Potter said:The Pharisee were Accusing Jesus of doing Miracles by being the Prince of Devils.
So Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, in my opinion, is attributing to Satan the miracles and power of the Holy Spirit.
To my understanding only a Believer can Blaspheme the Holy Spirit - Because only a believer would believe in Satan and in the Holy Spirit to make a judgement on such a matter.
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Permalink Reply by Sandy McCoy- Foust on
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Hi John
I can see from that scripture(John 1:13) where we could come to that conclusion..thats a good word..something to think about...Thanks for sharing that.I want the absolute truth too..we all should..
Blessings
Sista Sandy :)
John Bennett said:
Sandy:
The Lord Jesus has shown me scripture, the meaning thereof, that can explain how this is an unbeliever, without contradicting other scripture. I have no pet beliefs, no stubborn adherence to a particular ministry, but I only want the absolute, "peaceable" truth from God.
It may take a little patience and some meditation, but I have have found wonderful peace of mind since learning about these difficult veres (and others). Try not to get distracted. Let me begin with Jhn 1:12-13 (there are more).
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Note that those who "were born...of God", first (1) received Him, then (2) received the right, then (3) believed, then finally actually (4) became children of God.What do you think of that thought?
-john
Sandy McCoy- Foust said:
Frank...I also believe that we,as blood bought,& having the finished work of the cross that, sinful actions,mistakes,losing our composure is not gonna take away our salvation..as we are saved by grace, not our works...but renouncing and rejecting The Holy Spirit can..
My what a touchy subject this is!..What am I doing here?? hahaha...There will always be different views on this topic
Blessings!
Sandy
Frank said:
You will see by my previous comment that I do not believe that a born again person can blaspheme the Holy Spirit. This is because he has already passed from death into life. He has done this by assenting to the approaches of the Holy Spirit within his heart. The seed is planted, and will bring forth fruit.
If after receiving ETERNAL LIFE I can lose it through a mistake, THEN IT IS HARDLY ETERNAL! Neither can God claim that we are "kept by the power of God" if he discards us when we lose our composure about something.
Hebrews6 is a rhetorical question. He is saying that if someone falls away, they cannot be born again, AGAIN, otherwise it would require another sacrifice of Jesus. The first birth is sufficient, implying that what Jesus did on Calvary, had to be redone would bring the work of the cross to shame.
The writer is just making it clear that the one sacrifice does it all, for ever, even when someone messes up. There is no other sacrifice available. IT IS FINISHED!
Look at the prodigal son. Even when he was eating with the pigs, he was still a blood born son. He was simply out of fellowship and at a very long arms length from his father. Throughout the journey of the prodigal son, he was always a son. The same is true for us, we are always sons (inc daughters).
-
Permalink Reply by John Bennett on
-
Sandy:
Actually vs 12 was my first point, not vs 13. And to fully understand how I view Heb 6:4-6 as for an unbeliever, we would have to explore a few more verses. What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?
This different understanding also explains the mystery of the argument between the Calvinists and the Armenians.
If not interested, I understand.
John
Sandy McCoy- Foust said:Hi John
I can see from that scripture(John 1:13) where we could come to that conclusion..thats a good word..something to think about...Thanks for sharing that.I want the absolute truth too..we all should..
Blessings
Sista Sandy :)
John Bennett said:
Sandy:
The Lord Jesus has shown me scripture, the meaning thereof, that can explain how this is an unbeliever, without contradicting other scripture. I have no pet beliefs, no stubborn adherence to a particular ministry, but I only want the absolute, "peaceable" truth from God.
It may take a little patience and some meditation, but I have have found wonderful peace of mind since learning about these difficult veres (and others). Try not to get distracted. Let me begin with Jhn 1:12-13 (there are more).
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Note that those who "were born...of God", first (1) received Him, then (2) received the right, then (3) believed, then finally actually (4) became children of God.What do you think of that thought?
-john
Sandy McCoy- Foust said:
Frank...I also believe that we,as blood bought,& having the finished work of the cross that, sinful actions,mistakes,losing our composure is not gonna take away our salvation..as we are saved by grace, not our works...but renouncing and rejecting The Holy Spirit can..
My what a touchy subject this is!..What am I doing here?? hahaha...There will always be different views on this topic
Blessings!
Sandy
Frank said:
You will see by my previous comment that I do not believe that a born again person can blaspheme the Holy Spirit. This is because he has already passed from death into life. He has done this by assenting to the approaches of the Holy Spirit within his heart. The seed is planted, and will bring forth fruit.
If after receiving ETERNAL LIFE I can lose it through a mistake, THEN IT IS HARDLY ETERNAL! Neither can God claim that we are "kept by the power of God" if he discards us when we lose our composure about something.
Hebrews6 is a rhetorical question. He is saying that if someone falls away, they cannot be born again, AGAIN, otherwise it would require another sacrifice of Jesus. The first birth is sufficient, implying that what Jesus did on Calvary, had to be redone would bring the work of the cross to shame.
The writer is just making it clear that the one sacrifice does it all, for ever, even when someone messes up. There is no other sacrifice available. IT IS FINISHED!
Look at the prodigal son. Even when he was eating with the pigs, he was still a blood born son. He was simply out of fellowship and at a very long arms length from his father. Throughout the journey of the prodigal son, he was always a son. The same is true for us, we are always sons (inc daughters).
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Permalink Reply by Ryan Spear on -
John,
I've been on both sides of the fence with the Arminian and Calvin beliefs. The subject is more of the tree of knowledge of good and evil than of the tree of life to discuss. In other words it has the potential to be divisive (relationship breaking). I love the subject though. Like Eve, the subject is good for spiritulal food, pleasent to the eyes and a subject to be desired to make one wise, to know what God knows.
I ate of this forbidden subject and my eyes were opened to my own pride. To think I once thought I had the power to tell God what to do, meaning He had to save me because I, yes "I" made the right choice... by the power of my own free will. Yup, God could have never saved me without my permission.
At the same time, I also believe God has the power to give everyone exactly what they want just as He gave Satan his own kingdom so that he could be like God.
When it comes to Heb 6:4-6, as it doesn't give any example of circumstances to getting to the fallen away point, I remember an older woman at the motel I was staying who stated she wanted nothing to do with God because of her messed up life circumstance she was in. If a person has a life comparable to Job and blames and curses God for thier missery, hardening thier hearts, especially at an older age, as I get older here myself in understanding this, yes I can see it is impossible to renew them to repentance.
John Bennett said:Sandy:
Actually vs 12 was my first point, not vs 13. And to fully understand how I view Heb 6:4-6 as for an unbeliever, we would have to explore a few more verses. What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?
This different understanding also explains the mystery of the argument between the Calvinists and the Armenians.
If not interested, I understand.
John
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Permalink Reply by John Bennett on
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Ryan:
If anyone desires to hear a version of this issue that they have never heard before, in which I have found no contradiction, which answers the Calvinist contention as well as the Armenian, that is only based on scripture and not opinion, if one can approach it with the faith of a child, then I would be willing to explain. If I'm wrong, then I ask others to show, by the scripture, me the error of my belief, and I will discard mine, or at least modify to conform to His.
I believe the Lord has showed me, and throughout my life a few others, the real Truth to explain these supposed unexplainables" from the scripture. The notion that no one will ever understand something, or that we must agree to disagree, I believe, is contrary to the very nature of God. The Lord desires to show us all truth, He also desires us all to be of the same mind. It is we who inhibit this goal, not Him. Therefore, I believe that the only obstacle to understanding anything about the gracious Lord is actually my own stubborness and unwillingness to admit that I may actually be wrong or that I may actually be lacjing in some knowledge of His ways. I would hope that all believers endeaver to maintain this form of humilty in their search for the Truth.
Is anyo0ne at least curious? If I sound proud, please, I try not to be. I am just so always filled with joy and excitiement when I believe that the Lord has show me a new gem of Truth. A flawless diamond of Truth, no matter how small. I would rather have one tiny diamond of truth that is absolutely pure, than a whole treasury of flawed precious stones.So what'll it be?
-john
Ryan Spear said:John,
I've been on both sides of the fence with the Arminian and Calvin beliefs. The subject is more of the tree of knowledge of good and evil than of the tree of life to discuss. In other words it has the potential to be divisive (relationship breaking). I love the subject though. Like Eve, the subject is good for spiritulal food, pleasent to the eyes and a subject to be desired to make one wise, to know what God knows.
I ate of this forbidden subject and my eyes were opened to my own pride. To think I once thought I had the power to tell God what to do, meaning He had to save me because I, yes "I" made the right choice... by the power of my own free will. Yup, God could have never saved me without my permission.
At the same time, I also believe God has the power to give everyone exactly what they want just as He gave Satan his own kingdom so that he could be like God.
When it comes to Heb 6:4-6, as it doesn't give any example of circumstances to getting to the fallen away point, I remember an older woman at the motel I was staying who stated she wanted nothing to do with God because of her messed up life circumstance she was in. If a person has a life comparable to Job and blames and curses God for thier missery, hardening thier hearts, especially at an older age, as I get older here myself in understanding this, yes I can see it is impossible to renew them to repentance.
John Bennett said:Sandy:
Actually vs 12 was my first point, not vs 13. And to fully understand how I view Heb 6:4-6 as for an unbeliever, we would have to explore a few more verses. What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?
This different understanding also explains the mystery of the argument between the Calvinists and the Armenians.
If not interested, I understand.
John
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Permalink Reply by Sandy McCoy- Foust on
-
John
I did read verse 12 as well as 13..sorry, just didnt state that..Your question to me...
What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?Im not quite sure what you are saying.....could you explain further?..I have read and reread..John1:12&13..as well as Heb 6:4-6..and then your question once more...I have a clue but before I elaborate ..give me a little more to chew on please......Are you asking if I feel you need to choose ..to receive him... before we can become a child of God?
Thanks,
Sandy
John Bennett said:
Ryan:
If anyone desires to hear a version of this issue that they have never heard before, in which I have found no contradiction, which answers the Calvinist contention as well as the Armenian, that is only based on scripture and not opinion, if one can approach it with the faith of a child, then I would be willing to explain. If I'm wrong, then I ask others to show, by the scripture, me the error of my belief, and I will discard mine, or at least modify to conform to His.
I believe the Lord has showed me, and throughout my life a few others, the real Truth to explain these supposed unexplainables" from the scripture. The notion that no one will ever understand something, or that we must agree to disagree, I believe, is contrary to the very nature of God. The Lord desires to show us all truth, He also desires us all to be of the same mind. It is we who inhibit this goal, not Him. Therefore, I believe that the only obstacle to understanding anything about the gracious Lord is actually my own stubborness and unwillingness to admit that I may actually be wrong or that I may actually be lacjing in some knowledge of His ways. I would hope that all believers endeaver to maintain this form of humilty in their search for the Truth.
Is anyo0ne at least curious? If I sound proud, please, I try not to be. I am just so always filled with joy and excitiement when I believe that the Lord has show me a new gem of Truth. A flawless diamond of Truth, no matter how small. I would rather have one tiny diamond of truth that is absolutely pure, than a whole treasury of flawed precious stones.So what'll it be?
-john
Ryan Spear said:John,
I've been on both sides of the fence with the Arminian and Calvin beliefs. The subject is more of the tree of knowledge of good and evil than of the tree of life to discuss. In other words it has the potential to be divisive (relationship breaking). I love the subject though. Like Eve, the subject is good for spiritulal food, pleasent to the eyes and a subject to be desired to make one wise, to know what God knows.
I ate of this forbidden subject and my eyes were opened to my own pride. To think I once thought I had the power to tell God what to do, meaning He had to save me because I, yes "I" made the right choice... by the power of my own free will. Yup, God could have never saved me without my permission.
At the same time, I also believe God has the power to give everyone exactly what they want just as He gave Satan his own kingdom so that he could be like God.
When it comes to Heb 6:4-6, as it doesn't give any example of circumstances to getting to the fallen away point, I remember an older woman at the motel I was staying who stated she wanted nothing to do with God because of her messed up life circumstance she was in. If a person has a life comparable to Job and blames and curses God for thier missery, hardening thier hearts, especially at an older age, as I get older here myself in understanding this, yes I can see it is impossible to renew them to repentance.
John Bennett said:Sandy:
Actually vs 12 was my first point, not vs 13. And to fully understand how I view Heb 6:4-6 as for an unbeliever, we would have to explore a few more verses. What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?
This different understanding also explains the mystery of the argument between the Calvinists and the Armenians.
If not interested, I understand.
John
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