Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit

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Permalink Reply by Ryan Spear on September 8, 2011 at 7:31pm

Frank,

 

In responce to 2 Pet 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

 

Who was the epistle of 2 Peter written to?

2 Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:"

Answer: Christians

Now 2 Pet 3:9 Italicized mine "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any [of us Christians] should perish, but that all [of us Christians] should come to repentance." 

I added the 'of us Christians' in there that God is not slack concerning His promise to us believers but is longsuffering not willing that any of us should perish but that all of us come to repentence.

 

Repentence is something that actually happens after one is saved. Acts 2:38 where Peter preaches to repent and be baptized, he was talking to already believing Jews. Notice Peter never said to 'believe'.

 

Yes God loves the world. He loves His creation. We exist for His pupose and His pleasure. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes... This is a statement of a simple fact. Who ever believes has eternal life. Who ever doesn't does not have eternal life. What it does not say is "whosoever chooses to believe" should not perish. Where does Jesus or anyone ever state salvation is a choice of ours? "Ye have not chosen me but I have chosen you..." from John 14:15.

 

Oh but what about Joshua 24:15? "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Who was Joshua talking to? People who came out of the desert who lived in the presents of God... cloud by day, fire by night... again believers. Joshua was also talking of 'serving' not 'believing'. As believers, we can choose every day to either please God or not please Him. A non-believer wakes up every day to not please God no matter how good thier works may be because they lack faith.

 

The extent of our so called free wills goes as far as our physical lives in this physical world God put us as man in charge of. We can do anything we choose in this world, to the world and He will not interfere. We can love each other or kill each other... But the one thing we can't physically do is save our souls or the souls of others as John 1:13 talks, "...not of the will of the flesh or the will of man." This is one area that where there is total trust and reliance on God. We can't meditate and will our souls to heaven. For we as believers salvation is nothing more to be concerned or worried about. That's settled. We have a relationship with God and we can please God by bearing fruit... love, joy, peace,...etc.

 

This subject, although I love it, is a tree of knowledge, theology even, speaks of the gospel but is not the gospel. This is we greeks and our lust for wisdom... digging to understand truth and the things of God... yea, and probably missing the point being our focus is on the mechanics of it all. I call it FYI knowlege that is not necessary for anyone to know in order to be saved or make one a better Christian. It just fun to discuss.

 

Ryan

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Permalink Reply by Ryan Spear on September 9, 2011 at 5:58pm

Hi John,

 

I read through your explaination a couple times and this stuck out most:

John Bennett said:

Please wait for the verses. God imparts a temporary measure of grace to every unbeliever, perhaps multiple times in their lives, so as to temporarily have "eyes to see, ears to hear" the message of the Saviour, to "receive Him."

 

I was hoping you'd share the verses that explained the above statement but maybe you are in the next reply.

 

I had grown up Baptist. They were on the side of salvation was a choice but once you were saved you could never be lost. So in other words, you could choose to be saved but once saved, you could not choose to be unsaved. I concider Baptists as kind of straddling the fence between election and free-will. Toward the end I disagreed with this. Either you could choose to be saved and then choose not to be or it is God's choice who is saved and those who are saved can't choose to be unsaved.

 

The bad thing about the far free-will side is that the blood of Jesus is only as strong as the human will. It goes only as far as our abiltiy to keep up the good works after we are saved. It make Jesus look weak and that much of His blood was shead for nothing. The free will side puts people under a lot of pressure and worry about staying saved and causes people in the end to rely on thier own efforts more than just trusting in the Jesus, God's provision for thier salvation.

 

We know that Adam, prior to his fall had a choice. You say and I agree talking of God, "He/she can't, that is, on their own,in their own strength, power, will, choice, intelligence, desire - in any way." Once a person is saved, they have been restored the position Adam and Eve were in prior to the fall. After a person is saved, they are given the free will of choice again as Adam had. Would you say that or believe that a person after they are saved can honestly reject God, having thier free will restored?

 

Without the intervention of God, a person will always reject God or even if they wanted to, they could never see Jesus in any different way than say, Santa Clause. I don't believe in Santa because I can't. I can tell you everything about Santa Clause but I don't believe he exists or existed as the stories say. As far as the temporary measure of grace, what about the Jews who had Jesus in front of their eyes and couldn't see Him to believe? Matt 13:14-15 (see bold) Where is this temporary grace for them?

• [14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and  seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
• [15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Rom 8:11) "(According as it is written, GOD hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;)... and so they were lost by God's choice, yet not even against thier will. Amazing how that worked out.... and it is scary.

 

Matt 13:16 "But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

 

Ryan

 

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Permalink Reply by John Bennett on September 9, 2011 at 9:45pm

Sandy:

   Sorry for the delay. The week was full of work, and at night I just didn't seem to have...the clarity of mind or energy to respond. Maybe I still don't, but I feel a need to not delay much longer.

   First I want to say that it makes me so happy to read that you believe that God has shown you Jhn 1:9, and not me. I want so much to participate in the discussion of the Lord's Word, but deep inside, I really do not want to be the center of attention. I have seen so much of that and how distructive it is to the souls of saints.

   I believe that God Himself is the humblest being that ever existed, and he wants to let us participate in that realm of spirituality. And yet He is the King. "Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, Meek, and riding upon an ass, And upon a colt the foal of an ass." "Mt 11:29  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls." If anyone ever professing to be the spiritual one, the leader of the people, the more mature, it is safe to remember that the character of the Almighty God, Creator of Heaven and Earth...is meek and lowly; they should also be the same. Remember the seraphim (Isa 6:2). He had three pairs of wings. One pair to cover hisr feet (his deeds, what he does), one pair to cover his face (his identity, who he is), and one pair to fly (for he was not an earth creature, but flew above, like a new creation, like from another country). May the Lord grant me the blessing of becoming more like Him.

   Now with Rom 11:34-26 "...For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things To Him be the Glory forever." I also get very excited to hear such scripture from the Lord and through His people. Some others like are Php 2:13  "for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure." and "Gal 2:20  I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me." These verses would bring our conversation from the realm of the unbeliever and how he gets saved into the realm of the believer and how he walks out his salvation.

   However, I'm very hesitant to go any further into Rom 9-11. I believe, as with what I have previously shared about the process of becoming a believer, that there is another, third and different way to understand those difficult verses therein. However, I believe that the Lord wants, or is allowing me to rest after this entry, and sit back and receive from others. I haven't much 'desire' at the moment, maybe later, but if others want to read more on the line of those verses.

   Also, In reference to the previous Jhn 1:9, Heb 6:4-6 and the word "light." Look at 2Co 4:6 & Gen 1:3.

2Co 4:6  Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

This is a hidden gem of truth, that until Paul the apostle wrote 2Co (or taught of it) was probably hidden from the natural eyes. It speaks directly to the concept I described  as a temporary measure of faith, grace & light placed into/upon the unbeliever to temporarily give him/her "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." Then, during that blessing, the truly freed unbelliever can easily make a free-will choice to surrender to the Gospel (2Th 1:8  rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:), or to outright reject the love (Heb 10:29  of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?).

   All the sins of all the world were forgiven over two thousand years ago by the death of the Lord Jesus Christ. No one has ever had their sins forgiven when they become a believer. No one. We don't believe in a fake, representation of forgiveness. The thing that appeased God's wrath against all sin/sins was the physical death of Jesus Christ, in space and time. It has absolutely nothing to do with what anyone has ever believed. Sound different? God, essentially, said, 'since no one else can secure salvation for the people of this world, My Son, My Beloved Son, in the end of the ages, He alone will secure the total forgiveness of all sins for all people, by his one act of dying for them (Father forgive them, for they know not what they do). The Innocent one, took all sins upon Himself. 

   If this is true, then for what is the unbeliever held accountable? Unbelief. Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. The only sin not forgiven is the one that can send anyone to hell --- unbelief in this "so great salvation."

   Obey. What? Commandments? No. THE One and only command. Obey = Believe (1Jo 3:23  And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment) the Gospel that --- "Your sins have all been forgiven by Jesus' death on the cross" ---- It sounded too good to be true to me, but that's just it, It is true.

   Now we come full circle back to "the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit." To blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to do "...despite unto the Spirit of grace..." The Spirit's message is to convict the world (Joh 16:8  And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:) so the Father can then draw the prepared heart (Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.)
It's to say --- I don't believe this, it is too good to be true, my sins were not forever forgiven two thousand years ago. I must confess them daily to remain a child of God. It's to say, no, I must first ask for forgiveness before God will give it to me. Wrong, an unbeliever doesn't even have to ask for forgiveness. Why? Because God never told anyone to ask for forgiveness. Sound different? Where in the bible do we read anything that says "ask Me for forgiveness"? And yet all the IRCs teach unbelievers to walk the aisle, kneel, ask God to forgive you, pray the sinners prayer, etc. But God never asked them to. Why? Because forgivenesss was already secured two thousand years ago. What God commands is to repent of dead works and believe the Good News --- your sins have already been forgiven even before you asked. Do you believe this? If yes, then you are instantly born-again, if not, then you are rejecting His overwhelmingly free gift and worthy of damnation. The same damnation as blaspheming the Holy Spirit. How many different damnations or things can we do to receive eternal damnation, WHEN the sins of the whole world (1Jn 2:2) have already been forgiven?

   You (not you Sandy, but for some reason I seemed to write the following in the second-person singular; maybe I'm getting too preachy) are blaspheming the Holy Spirit and now in danger of eternal damnation. Why not immediately eternally damned? Why only "in danger of eternal damnation" (KJV1769)? This is very important. Pay particular attention. The scripture says "in danger of" as though it is not yet happened. What? Even after blaspheming Him, I am not immediately damned?! Wow. Because you have not died yet. Why does the scripture say "shall not be forgiven" as though the event has yet to happen. Because the Spirit has not yet come. Jesus said that if He didn't go, the Comforter wouldn't come. The ministry of the Holy Spirit begins after the Lord Jesus is ressurrected. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit could not have occurred until Jesus left for heaven. That's why it says "shall." And why does it say "guilty of an eternal sin" (ASV1901)? Because Jhn 3:18, 36 say that we are already condemned because we did not believe (the message/ministry of the Holy Spirit). Unbelief is the only "eternal" sin. The sin that will dwell in Hell and the lake of fire with all the unbelievers and the Devil, the False Prophet and the Beast. However, even for a once rejecting unbeliever, I believe that there is still a chance that when the Holy Spirit revisits you, then you will repent and receive His message about the Saviour. Because the Holy Spirit is gracious, merciful, and the Lord is longsuffering, not willing that any perish. The Holy Spirit will leave you now, remove that momentary measure of grace, faith and light because you have rejected. He will wait for another appropriate time to revisit you. He revisited me three times. On third visit, I believed that it would be my last chance. Thanks be to God for His patience to "search...until He found me."
   OK, I believe that I'm done for the most part. I am getting really nervous that I have been way too wordy (Ecc 5:2,3; 10:14). I would love to rest and receive. If, Sandy, you want to go into the "work of God within the believer" or something else, that's fine with me. I have a hunch that you already know many of these things deep in your heart and spirit. Like me, you just may have only needed some confirmation, or as the apostles wrote "a bringing to your remebrance" what you already heard and know. I really think that I have said enough for now. Let's hear from others and you Sandy.

-john

   I have list upon list of scripture on various topics about the Gospel and the person of Christ if anyone would be interested in reviewing. It's just scripture (searched upon by a word or concept) I have grouped into a few headings where I see patterns repeating.
Sandy McCoy- Foust said:

John,

Well how exciting!...I love to search deep (deep calls unto deep)!..As i was reading John 1:12 & 13 & Heb. 6:4-6 as you suggested...I always like to read the before and after scrips as well, to help me grab hold!..(im sure most of us do)...of course the word ENLIGHTENED in verse 9 of John stood out to me! beings it is repeated in Hebrews.

 

This is something to really think about!...I am always open to more, & more revelation!..Since I have found so much of what i always believed to be true (a few years back)....false!.....Another scripture that I feel relates to what you are saying is Romans 11:vs.34-36....34 " For who has known the mind of the Lord or who became His counselor,(35) or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to Him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things To Him be the Glory forever.  This scripture stood out to me years ago when I was still in the IC...which made me start thinking...every spiritual thought we have..faith..love... giving..etc...is not our doing...but HIS!..This all stems from within and flows out..because it is from, through, and to HIM..We were being taught to DO..and my heart was saying just BE!.. and it will flow......I posted a blog on here a year or 2 ago on this scripture..

What do you think?

 

Sandy

 

John Bennett said:

Sandy:

   After taking the time to re-read the entire thread, I noticed the following from you:

   "I just caught this!...Do you feel verse 9... thru 13 of John..chap 1..is connected to Heb. 6:4-6?"

   Yes, indeed! And now you're getting ahead of me, prasie God!

   Let me take a moment to say something a little off track. I have to say that it has been a priviledge and a joy to my heart to be allowed to share my belief and understanding of this one topic with you and others. I live in Mobile, AL and, though the IRC's are too numerous to number down here, I have very little fellowship with other believers who have a heart after God and His Truth like you and others here. Really, most "professing" believers that I run into think I'm a nut-case and rebel, but all I've ever desired in fellowship is to gather with a few around the presence of Jesus and discuss His word, seek His Truth, pray, sing, remember Him in the Lord's supper. Something informal, personal, face-to-face, sincere & simple, but all I seem to find is very entrenched, religious people, who are satisfied with 45min on Sundays. They don't even want to get together during the week and fellowship. Sometimes I think I must be a nut-case, or totally deceived, but then later, the Lord encourages me with tender verses.

   And, Frank, thanks for the kind words. I'm beginning to wish that we lived closer. I just now read your recent comments and caught up again on the entire thread. When I respond/comment, I do so by clicking on the link inside the e-mail that the SC system sends to me and then it takes me directly to that particular writer, so I've not seen some of the comments until tonight.

   OK, back on topic.

   Yes, Sandy, Jhn 1:9 has a whole lot to do with Heb 6:4-6 (esp. vs.4).

   Now to continue, "God is not willing that any perish", "the true light...which lighteth every man", "for God so loved the world", "he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.", "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.", "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." - and on.

   These verses, as well as many more that I and others could list, demonstrate the heart of God. God's heart desires above all passions for everyone and anyone to come to Him, to be saved, born-again, become a new creation, a believer in Christ. However, this now presents an 'apparent' problem with what I have said so far, from the beginning, which I'm sure all are aware. Specifically, how could an unbeliever, whose will is in total bondage to sin & selfishness, ever choose to be with a God that is so totally unlike him/her? He/she can't, that is, on their own,in their own strength, power, will, choice, intelligence, desire - in any way.

    And, knowing this state of lost mankind, why doesn't the all-loving, kind, God simply decide for us, or force His will upon us, save all mankind, every soul that has ever lived? Because it is not His lovely nature. He reaches out, He draws, He implores, He never gives up "until He hath found it." True love, and that is the final result of this whole creation, purpose of God, true love is completely voluntary on both parties. Ask your own heart and spirit before God if this isn't so. God does not desire robots, he does not force us to love Him, He asks, gentle as lamb, humbley and meekly, come to Me. He uses every possible way, throughout history, to reach mankind with the "lamb slain from the foundations of the world." But, just as we all desire true love, real, honest love from Him, He desires the same from humans, the new-creation kind. A Freely offered love from His own creation. This is also the same kind of love that exists between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They each serve and love each other. He wants to bring us into that eternal, loving relationship, that has already existed from before the beginning of time, before heaven and earth, before the angels.

   SO, how does the unbeliever who will only choose sin because of his/her depraved state, freely choose God? And How can a very loving God draw these blind, deaf creatures without forcing them?

   Please wait for the verses. God imparts a temporary measure of grace to every unbeliever, perhaps multiple times in their lives, so as to temporarily have "eyes to see, ears to hear" the message of the Saviour, to "receive Him."

   As it is written, "for by grace have you been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

   The "grace" in this verse is not the gift, but the faith to believe the message, is the gift. Grace is unmerritted favor, or, in other words, a gift. A totally free gift. It would be redundant, as in Jhn 1:12, for God to say that the gift is a gift. The "gift of God" is the faith. In God's love, "the love of Christ which passeth knowledge", God has seen the damage that Satan, Adam, and our own selves have inflicted on each one of us. The effect of the sinfulness of lost mankind is that we could never see Him, never hear His voice, never understand His message, or believe to be saved without help. And so, with everyone that has become a new creation in Christ, God, at some or many points in their lives has given the gift of faith to the depraved unbeliever so that they could, for at least a moment or short period (or many moments in their life), see the Truth, Receive the Truth, Believe the Truth. It would be unjust for God to require a lost person, with no possible way of choosing God on his/her own, to choose Him without some help. This is also how God will be just at the judgement. No one will be able to stand before Him and say that they never could see the Truth, because they were blind, or hear the Truth because they were deaf. He will show then, when it's too late for excuses, how he imparted a measure of faith (grace) to each and every person so that they could have a fair shot at receiving the Gospel message. It will also demonstrate how wretched and deserving of eternal torment everyone is who reject "so great salvation." God is not the author of confusion, but of peace. His ways are without contradiction, His justice is right. He is deep, but not complicated. This how we reconcile those two opposite, and archaic, beliefs that I'm not suppose to name.

   Some more scripture. "it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God", Just as a measure of faith was imparted to my lost soul in order to even have an opportunity to believe for the first time, so also as a believer I live by the faith which is in Him, not myself. " So we, when an unbeliever, receive the grace and faith to believe for the first time, freely choose God, with his liberating Spirit's help; we then enter into Christ where "as we have received Christ Jesus, so walk in Him",

   Now we return to Heb 6:4-6 and can see how it is possible that the person(s) in question, are actually unbelievers that have rejected ("fallen away" from) the finished work of Christ as being enough for their every need. They were all "enlightened" (by the "true light...that lighteth every man"), tasted of the heavenly gift (the faith to believe), "partakers of the Holy Spirit (known His presence working for them), tasted of the good word of God (understood the Gospel), and tasted of the powers of the age to come (total freedom & liberty from the bondages of sin - to see/hear and make a free will choice). Nut, if while having their eyes and ears opened for a moment, they still reject the Saviour and His work, His message, there is nothing else God can do for them. He has done everything possible, including, making it easy for them to receive and believe. And also, if one rejects the o'nce and for all people and for all time type of forgiveness', the alternative is only some form of repeated, partial form (name your 'favorite' religious requirement) that they go after (as described later in Hebrews), "crucifying the Son of God afresh" each time they seek additional forgiveness of sins, each day or week, trying to secure their supposed relationship with God so as to maintain that 'hoped for' entrance into heaven. The believer, once submitting to the Gospel, is assured hof is entrance into heaven forever. He doesn't have to have his sins confessed on his death bed, nor does he "hope" to go to heaven, but he/she knows that heaven is their home.  "These things I have written unto you that you may know that you have eternal life." Not hope for, but know, now, on earth, before I die.

   Well, as you can see, I have strange hours. There is more we can explore in Hebrews 6:4-8, Heb 10, Mat 7, Luk 14, etc. on this topic. Let me know what you want to do.

   This third way of understanding the supposed paradox satisfies the main contentions of those two unmentionable (ha) positions. Total depravity vs. Free will choice. Only by a gift of faith can anyone ever choose Him. And that makes all the possible results fair.

   I hope you have enjoyed this so far, I surely have. As the song goes, "I love to tell the story..."

-john

====

okJohn...I agree with all you have said...now...im lost on the How can then anyone get saved, become a child of God, be born-again?

Isnt being "Born Again"...meaning..new creation?......He draws us...no one comes to the father unless they are drawn...we all have a void..because of the fall... only He can fill it.....so He draws...we surrender..our heart is no longer wicked...once He is within us...we feel "Born Again"...

 

Am i making any sense?

 

Sandy

John Bennett said:

Sandy:

   Yes, we must "receive Him" (his message) before we can "become." Let me elaborate.

   If "as many as received Him" means the same thing as "the right to become the children of God", the the staement would be redundant. I believe that "as many as received Him" means 'as many as received His message.' In other words, 'if anyone receives what He is preaching/thegospel (accept it, surrender to it, etc.), then they can receive the "right" to become a child of God.' It sounds basic, but I believe the Holy Spirit worded it that way to make a point. An unbeliever has to first understand, receive, accept, and surrender to what Jesus was preaching before he can even have the right (eternal, spritual right) to even become a child of God. The surrendering to the message of the gospel gives a person the spiritual/eternal right to become a child of God. And within vs. 12, the unbeliever is not yet a believer. We have to next go to vs. 13 for that.

   Now vs. 13, to me says some very profound (as all of God's Word), things. When an unbeliever becomes a believer, it is "who were not born of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." This to me is very profound. I understand it to mean these things:

   The "of blood" means the family blood-line. One cannot become a believer just because his/her parents are/were. It is an individual/personal, one-on-one with God experience.

   The "will oif the flesh" (in an unbeliever) is the 'wants and desires' of the lost, darkened heart. Unbelievers cannot get saved, born-again, become a child of God just because it's what they want. That is out of the depraved, darkened, evil/wicked  wants & desires of the lost heart it is impossible to want God.
   The "will of man" (in an unbliever) is the 'determinations, will-power, choice' of the lost, darkened mind. That is out of the depraved, darkened, evil/wicked thoughts of the lost mind it is impossible to choose God.

   Remember all the scriptures from Jeremiah about "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it" and Romans 3:10-18. These, among many others you're porobably familiar with, demonstrate the total depravity of man. Man, in his unbelieving state, cannot nor does he/she desire to seek after God. An unbeliever is natural-born not being able to "receive" what Jesus preached. This poses an 'apparent' problem. How can then anyone get saved, become a child of God, be born-again?

   Now this may sound Calvinistic, but we're not done, yet. God doesn't pick and choose who is to go to heaven. He is " willing that all men be saved."

   I found that understanding God's ways, as you probably have, comes in steps. If we fail to understand or surrender to the first steps, God may hesitate in showing us the latter steps. So I ask you to have some patience with me.

   We will get to Heb 6:4-6 soon. These verses lay the foundation, between which and others I have found no contradictions.

   Now, I would ask, do you understand and believe this? (with the caviat, that more will given to balance out the apparent Calvinistic tenor). I am not a Calvinist, nor an Armenian, but perhaps one could say a little of both, or entirely neither.

-john
Sandy McCoy- Foust said:

John

I did read verse 12 as well as 13..sorry, just didnt state that..Your question to me...
What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?

Im not quite sure what you are saying.....could you explain further?..I have read and reread..John1:12&13..as well as Heb 6:4-6..and then your question once more...I have a clue but before I elaborate ..give me a little more to chew on please......Are you asking if I feel you need to choose ..to receive him... before we can become a child of God?

 

Thanks,

Sandy

 

John Bennett said:

Ryan:

   If anyone desires to hear a version of this issue that they have never heard before, in which I have found no contradiction, which answers the Calvinist contention as well as the Armenian, that is only based on scripture and not opinion, if one can approach it with the faith of a child, then I would be willing to explain. If I'm wrong, then I ask others to show, by the scripture, me the error of my belief, and I will discard mine, or at least modify to conform to His.

   I believe the Lord has showed me, and throughout my life a few others, the real Truth to explain these supposed  unexplainables" from the scripture. The notion that no one will ever understand something, or that we must agree to disagree, I believe, is contrary to the very nature of God. The Lord desires to show us all truth, He also desires us all to be of the same mind. It is we who inhibit this goal, not Him. Therefore, I believe that the only obstacle to understanding anything about the gracious Lord is actually my own stubborness and unwillingness to admit that I may actually be wrong or that I may actually be lacjing in some knowledge of His ways. I would hope that all believers endeaver to maintain this form of humilty in their search for the Truth.
   Is anyo0ne at least curious? If I sound proud, please, I try not to be. I am just so always filled with joy and excitiement when I believe that the Lord has show me a new gem of Truth. A flawless diamond of Truth, no matter how small. I would rather have one tiny diamond of truth that is absolutely pure, than a whole treasury of flawed precious stones.

   So what'll it be?

-john
Ryan Spear said:

John,

I've been on both sides of the fence with the Arminian and Calvin beliefs. The subject is more of the tree of knowledge of good and evil than of the tree of life to discuss. In other words it has the potential to be divisive (relationship breaking). I love the subject though. Like Eve, the subject is good for spiritulal food, pleasent to the eyes and a subject to be desired to make one wise, to know what God knows.

I ate of this forbidden subject and my eyes were opened to my own pride. To think I once thought I had the power to tell God what to do, meaning He had to save me because I, yes "I" made the right choice... by the power of my own free will. Yup, God could have never saved me without my permission.

 

At the same time, I also believe God has the power to give everyone exactly what they want just as He gave Satan his own kingdom so that he could be like God.

 

When it comes to Heb 6:4-6, as it doesn't give any example of circumstances to getting to the fallen away point, I remember an older woman at the motel I was staying who stated she wanted nothing to do with God because of her messed up life circumstance she was in. If a person has a life comparable to Job and blames and curses God for thier missery, hardening thier hearts, especially at an older age, as I get older here myself in understanding this, yes I can see it is impossible to renew them to repentance.

John Bennett said:

Sandy:

 

   Actually vs 12 was my first point, not vs 13. And to fully understand how I view Heb 6:4-6 as for an unbeliever, we would have to explore a few more verses. What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?

   This different understanding also explains the mystery of the argument between the Calvinists and the Armenians.

   If not interested, I understand.

John

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Sandy McCoy- Foust on September 10, 2011 at 10:12am

John,

Thanks for your "Lengthy" reply..haha...Lots of good reading and confirmation from within...one of the many things you quoted I so liked is....

Obey. What? Commandments? No. THE One and only command. Obey = Believe (1Jo 3:23  And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment) the Gospel that --- "Your sins have all been forgiven by Jesus' death on the cross" ---- It sounded too good to be true to me, but that's just it, It is true.

Yes..it is so true!!...and your hunch...may be right!! :)

 I think I will rest awhile as well from this topic..Lots to soak up!!

On to the the next part of our journey!

 

Be Blessed

Sista Sandy :)

 

John Bennett said:

Sandy:

   Sorry for the delay. The week was full of work, and at night I just didn't seem to have...the clarity of mind or energy to respond. Maybe I still don't, but I feel a need to not delay much longer.

   First I want to say that it makes me so happy to read that you believe that God has shown you Jhn 1:9, and not me. I want so much to participate in the discussion of the Lord's Word, but deep inside, I really do not want to be the center of attention. I have seen so much of that and how distructive it is to the souls of saints.

   I believe that God Himself is the humblest being that ever existed, and he wants to let us participate in that realm of spirituality. And yet He is the King. "Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, Meek, and riding upon an ass, And upon a colt the foal of an ass." "Mt 11:29  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls." If anyone ever professing to be the spiritual one, the leader of the people, the more mature, it is safe to remember that the character of the Almighty God, Creator of Heaven and Earth...is meek and lowly; they should also be the same. Remember the seraphim (Isa 6:2). He had three pairs of wings. One pair to cover hisr feet (his deeds, what he does), one pair to cover his face (his identity, who he is), and one pair to fly (for he was not an earth creature, but flew above, like a new creation, like from another country). May the Lord grant me the blessing of becoming more like Him.

   Now with Rom 11:34-26 "...For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things To Him be the Glory forever." I also get very excited to hear such scripture from the Lord and through His people. Some others like are Php 2:13  "for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure." and "Gal 2:20  I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me." These verses would bring our conversation from the realm of the unbeliever and how he gets saved into the realm of the believer and how he walks out his salvation.

   However, I'm very hesitant to go any further into Rom 9-11. I believe, as with what I have previously shared about the process of becoming a believer, that there is another, third and different way to understand those difficult verses therein. However, I believe that the Lord wants, or is allowing me to rest after this entry, and sit back and receive from others. I haven't much 'desire' at the moment, maybe later, but if others want to read more on the line of those verses.

   Also, In reference to the previous Jhn 1:9, Heb 6:4-6 and the word "light." Look at 2Co 4:6 & Gen 1:3.

2Co 4:6  Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

This is a hidden gem of truth, that until Paul the apostle wrote 2Co (or taught of it) was probably hidden from the natural eyes. It speaks directly to the concept I described  as a temporary measure of faith, grace & light placed into/upon the unbeliever to temporarily give him/her "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." Then, during that blessing, the truly freed unbelliever can easily make a free-will choice to surrender to the Gospel (2Th 1:8  rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:), or to outright reject the love (Heb 10:29  of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?).

   All the sins of all the world were forgiven over two thousand years ago by the death of the Lord Jesus Christ. No one has ever had their sins forgiven when they become a believer. No one. We don't believe in a fake, representation of forgiveness. The thing that appeased God's wrath against all sin/sins was the physical death of Jesus Christ, in space and time. It has absolutely nothing to do with what anyone has ever believed. Sound different? God, essentially, said, 'since no one else can secure salvation for the people of this world, My Son, My Beloved Son, in the end of the ages, He alone will secure the total forgiveness of all sins for all people, by his one act of dying for them (Father forgive them, for they know not what they do). The Innocent one, took all sins upon Himself. 

   If this is true, then for what is the unbeliever held accountable? Unbelief. Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. The only sin not forgiven is the one that can send anyone to hell --- unbelief in this "so great salvation."

   Obey. What? Commandments? No. THE One and only command. Obey = Believe (1Jo 3:23  And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment) the Gospel that --- "Your sins have all been forgiven by Jesus' death on the cross" ---- It sounded too good to be true to me, but that's just it, It is true.

   Now we come full circle back to "the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit." To blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to do "...despite unto the Spirit of grace..." The Spirit's message is to convict the world (Joh 16:8  And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:) so the Father can then draw the prepared heart (Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.)
It's to say --- I don't believe this, it is too good to be true, my sins were not forever forgiven two thousand years ago. I must confess them daily to remain a child of God. It's to say, no, I must first ask for forgiveness before God will give it to me. Wrong, an unbeliever doesn't even have to ask for forgiveness. Why? Because God never told anyone to ask for forgiveness. Sound different? Where in the bible do we read anything that says "ask Me for forgiveness"? And yet all the IRCs teach unbelievers to walk the aisle, kneel, ask God to forgive you, pray the sinners prayer, etc. But God never asked them to. Why? Because forgivenesss was already secured two thousand years ago. What God commands is to repent of dead works and believe the Good News --- your sins have already been forgiven even before you asked. Do you believe this? If yes, then you are instantly born-again, if not, then you are rejecting His overwhelmingly free gift and worthy of damnation. The same damnation as blaspheming the Holy Spirit. How many different damnations or things can we do to receive eternal damnation, WHEN the sins of the whole world (1Jn 2:2) have already been forgiven?

   You (not you Sandy, but for some reason I seemed to write the following in the second-person singular; maybe I'm getting too preachy) are blaspheming the Holy Spirit and now in danger of eternal damnation. Why not immediately eternally damned? Why only "in danger of eternal damnation" (KJV1769)? This is very important. Pay particular attention. The scripture says "in danger of" as though it is not yet happened. What? Even after blaspheming Him, I am not immediately damned?! Wow. Because you have not died yet. Why does the scripture say "shall not be forgiven" as though the event has yet to happen. Because the Spirit has not yet come. Jesus said that if He didn't go, the Comforter wouldn't come. The ministry of the Holy Spirit begins after the Lord Jesus is ressurrected. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit could not have occurred until Jesus left for heaven. That's why it says "shall." And why does it say "guilty of an eternal sin" (ASV1901)? Because Jhn 3:18, 36 say that we are already condemned because we did not believe (the message/ministry of the Holy Spirit). Unbelief is the only "eternal" sin. The sin that will dwell in Hell and the lake of fire with all the unbelievers and the Devil, the False Prophet and the Beast. However, even for a once rejecting unbeliever, I believe that there is still a chance that when the Holy Spirit revisits you, then you will repent and receive His message about the Saviour. Because the Holy Spirit is gracious, merciful, and the Lord is longsuffering, not willing that any perish. The Holy Spirit will leave you now, remove that momentary measure of grace, faith and light because you have rejected. He will wait for another appropriate time to revisit you. He revisited me three times. On third visit, I believed that it would be my last chance. Thanks be to God for His patience to "search...until He found me."
   OK, I believe that I'm done for the most part. I am getting really nervous that I have been way too wordy (Ecc 5:2,3; 10:14). I would love to rest and receive. If, Sandy, you want to go into the "work of God within the believer" or something else, that's fine with me. I have a hunch that you already know many of these things deep in your heart and spirit. Like me, you just may have only needed some confirmation, or as the apostles wrote "a bringing to your remebrance" what you already heard and know. I really think that I have said enough for now. Let's hear from others and you Sandy.

-john

   I have list upon list of scripture on various topics about the Gospel and the person of Christ if anyone would be interested in reviewing. It's just scripture (searched upon by a word or concept) I have grouped into a few headings where I see patterns repeating.
Sandy McCoy- Foust said:

John,

Well how exciting!...I love to search deep (deep calls unto deep)!..As i was reading John 1:12 & 13 & Heb. 6:4-6 as you suggested...I always like to read the before and after scrips as well, to help me grab hold!..(im sure most of us do)...of course the word ENLIGHTENED in verse 9 of John stood out to me! beings it is repeated in Hebrews.

 

This is something to really think about!...I am always open to more, & more revelation!..Since I have found so much of what i always believed to be true (a few years back)....false!.....Another scripture that I feel relates to what you are saying is Romans 11:vs.34-36....34 " For who has known the mind of the Lord or who became His counselor,(35) or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to Him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things To Him be the Glory forever.  This scripture stood out to me years ago when I was still in the IC...which made me start thinking...every spiritual thought we have..faith..love... giving..etc...is not our doing...but HIS!..This all stems from within and flows out..because it is from, through, and to HIM..We were being taught to DO..and my heart was saying just BE!.. and it will flow......I posted a blog on here a year or 2 ago on this scripture..

What do you think?

 

Sandy

 

John Bennett said:

Sandy:

   After taking the time to re-read the entire thread, I noticed the following from you:

   "I just caught this!...Do you feel verse 9... thru 13 of John..chap 1..is connected to Heb. 6:4-6?"

   Yes, indeed! And now you're getting ahead of me, prasie God!

   Let me take a moment to say something a little off track. I have to say that it has been a priviledge and a joy to my heart to be allowed to share my belief and understanding of this one topic with you and others. I live in Mobile, AL and, though the IRC's are too numerous to number down here, I have very little fellowship with other believers who have a heart after God and His Truth like you and others here. Really, most "professing" believers that I run into think I'm a nut-case and rebel, but all I've ever desired in fellowship is to gather with a few around the presence of Jesus and discuss His word, seek His Truth, pray, sing, remember Him in the Lord's supper. Something informal, personal, face-to-face, sincere & simple, but all I seem to find is very entrenched, religious people, who are satisfied with 45min on Sundays. They don't even want to get together during the week and fellowship. Sometimes I think I must be a nut-case, or totally deceived, but then later, the Lord encourages me with tender verses.

   And, Frank, thanks for the kind words. I'm beginning to wish that we lived closer. I just now read your recent comments and caught up again on the entire thread. When I respond/comment, I do so by clicking on the link inside the e-mail that the SC system sends to me and then it takes me directly to that particular writer, so I've not seen some of the comments until tonight.

   OK, back on topic.

   Yes, Sandy, Jhn 1:9 has a whole lot to do with Heb 6:4-6 (esp. vs.4).

   Now to continue, "God is not willing that any perish", "the true light...which lighteth every man", "for God so loved the world", "he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.", "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.", "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." - and on.

   These verses, as well as many more that I and others could list, demonstrate the heart of God. God's heart desires above all passions for everyone and anyone to come to Him, to be saved, born-again, become a new creation, a believer in Christ. However, this now presents an 'apparent' problem with what I have said so far, from the beginning, which I'm sure all are aware. Specifically, how could an unbeliever, whose will is in total bondage to sin & selfishness, ever choose to be with a God that is so totally unlike him/her? He/she can't, that is, on their own,in their own strength, power, will, choice, intelligence, desire - in any way.

    And, knowing this state of lost mankind, why doesn't the all-loving, kind, God simply decide for us, or force His will upon us, save all mankind, every soul that has ever lived? Because it is not His lovely nature. He reaches out, He draws, He implores, He never gives up "until He hath found it." True love, and that is the final result of this whole creation, purpose of God, true love is completely voluntary on both parties. Ask your own heart and spirit before God if this isn't so. God does not desire robots, he does not force us to love Him, He asks, gentle as lamb, humbley and meekly, come to Me. He uses every possible way, throughout history, to reach mankind with the "lamb slain from the foundations of the world." But, just as we all desire true love, real, honest love from Him, He desires the same from humans, the new-creation kind. A Freely offered love from His own creation. This is also the same kind of love that exists between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They each serve and love each other. He wants to bring us into that eternal, loving relationship, that has already existed from before the beginning of time, before heaven and earth, before the angels.

   SO, how does the unbeliever who will only choose sin because of his/her depraved state, freely choose God? And How can a very loving God draw these blind, deaf creatures without forcing them?

   Please wait for the verses. God imparts a temporary measure of grace to every unbeliever, perhaps multiple times in their lives, so as to temporarily have "eyes to see, ears to hear" the message of the Saviour, to "receive Him."

   As it is written, "for by grace have you been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

   The "grace" in this verse is not the gift, but the faith to believe the message, is the gift. Grace is unmerritted favor, or, in other words, a gift. A totally free gift. It would be redundant, as in Jhn 1:12, for God to say that the gift is a gift. The "gift of God" is the faith. In God's love, "the love of Christ which passeth knowledge", God has seen the damage that Satan, Adam, and our own selves have inflicted on each one of us. The effect of the sinfulness of lost mankind is that we could never see Him, never hear His voice, never understand His message, or believe to be saved without help. And so, with everyone that has become a new creation in Christ, God, at some or many points in their lives has given the gift of faith to the depraved unbeliever so that they could, for at least a moment or short period (or many moments in their life), see the Truth, Receive the Truth, Believe the Truth. It would be unjust for God to require a lost person, with no possible way of choosing God on his/her own, to choose Him without some help. This is also how God will be just at the judgement. No one will be able to stand before Him and say that they never could see the Truth, because they were blind, or hear the Truth because they were deaf. He will show then, when it's too late for excuses, how he imparted a measure of faith (grace) to each and every person so that they could have a fair shot at receiving the Gospel message. It will also demonstrate how wretched and deserving of eternal torment everyone is who reject "so great salvation." God is not the author of confusion, but of peace. His ways are without contradiction, His justice is right. He is deep, but not complicated. This how we reconcile those two opposite, and archaic, beliefs that I'm not suppose to name.

   Some more scripture. "it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God", Just as a measure of faith was imparted to my lost soul in order to even have an opportunity to believe for the first time, so also as a believer I live by the faith which is in Him, not myself. " So we, when an unbeliever, receive the grace and faith to believe for the first time, freely choose God, with his liberating Spirit's help; we then enter into Christ where "as we have received Christ Jesus, so walk in Him",

   Now we return to Heb 6:4-6 and can see how it is possible that the person(s) in question, are actually unbelievers that have rejected ("fallen away" from) the finished work of Christ as being enough for their every need. They were all "enlightened" (by the "true light...that lighteth every man"), tasted of the heavenly gift (the faith to believe), "partakers of the Holy Spirit (known His presence working for them), tasted of the good word of God (understood the Gospel), and tasted of the powers of the age to come (total freedom & liberty from the bondages of sin - to see/hear and make a free will choice). Nut, if while having their eyes and ears opened for a moment, they still reject the Saviour and His work, His message, there is nothing else God can do for them. He has done everything possible, including, making it easy for them to receive and believe. And also, if one rejects the o'nce and for all people and for all time type of forgiveness', the alternative is only some form of repeated, partial form (name your 'favorite' religious requirement) that they go after (as described later in Hebrews), "crucifying the Son of God afresh" each time they seek additional forgiveness of sins, each day or week, trying to secure their supposed relationship with God so as to maintain that 'hoped for' entrance into heaven. The believer, once submitting to the Gospel, is assured hof is entrance into heaven forever. He doesn't have to have his sins confessed on his death bed, nor does he "hope" to go to heaven, but he/she knows that heaven is their home.  "These things I have written unto you that you may know that you have eternal life." Not hope for, but know, now, on earth, before I die.

   Well, as you can see, I have strange hours. There is more we can explore in Hebrews 6:4-8, Heb 10, Mat 7, Luk 14, etc. on this topic. Let me know what you want to do.

   This third way of understanding the supposed paradox satisfies the main contentions of those two unmentionable (ha) positions. Total depravity vs. Free will choice. Only by a gift of faith can anyone ever choose Him. And that makes all the possible results fair.

   I hope you have enjoyed this so far, I surely have. As the song goes, "I love to tell the story..."

-john

====

okJohn...I agree with all you have said...now...im lost on the How can then anyone get saved, become a child of God, be born-again?

Isnt being "Born Again"...meaning..new creation?......He draws us...no one comes to the father unless they are drawn...we all have a void..because of the fall... only He can fill it.....so He draws...we surrender..our heart is no longer wicked...once He is within us...we feel "Born Again"...

 

Am i making any sense?

 

Sandy

John Bennett said:

Sandy:

   Yes, we must "receive Him" (his message) before we can "become." Let me elaborate.

   If "as many as received Him" means the same thing as "the right to become the children of God", the the staement would be redundant. I believe that "as many as received Him" means 'as many as received His message.' In other words, 'if anyone receives what He is preaching/thegospel (accept it, surrender to it, etc.), then they can receive the "right" to become a child of God.' It sounds basic, but I believe the Holy Spirit worded it that way to make a point. An unbeliever has to first understand, receive, accept, and surrender to what Jesus was preaching before he can even have the right (eternal, spritual right) to even become a child of God. The surrendering to the message of the gospel gives a person the spiritual/eternal right to become a child of God. And within vs. 12, the unbeliever is not yet a believer. We have to next go to vs. 13 for that.

   Now vs. 13, to me says some very profound (as all of God's Word), things. When an unbeliever becomes a believer, it is "who were not born of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." This to me is very profound. I understand it to mean these things:

   The "of blood" means the family blood-line. One cannot become a believer just because his/her parents are/were. It is an individual/personal, one-on-one with God experience.

   The "will oif the flesh" (in an unbeliever) is the 'wants and desires' of the lost, darkened heart. Unbelievers cannot get saved, born-again, become a child of God just because it's what they want. That is out of the depraved, darkened, evil/wicked  wants & desires of the lost heart it is impossible to want God.
   The "will of man" (in an unbliever) is the 'determinations, will-power, choice' of the lost, darkened mind. That is out of the depraved, darkened, evil/wicked thoughts of the lost mind it is impossible to choose God.

   Remember all the scriptures from Jeremiah about "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it" and Romans 3:10-18. These, among many others you're porobably familiar with, demonstrate the total depravity of man. Man, in his unbelieving state, cannot nor does he/she desire to seek after God. An unbeliever is natural-born not being able to "receive" what Jesus preached. This poses an 'apparent' problem. How can then anyone get saved, become a child of God, be born-again?

   Now this may sound Calvinistic, but we're not done, yet. God doesn't pick and choose who is to go to heaven. He is " willing that all men be saved."

   I found that understanding God's ways, as you probably have, comes in steps. If we fail to understand or surrender to the first steps, God may hesitate in showing us the latter steps. So I ask you to have some patience with me.

   We will get to Heb 6:4-6 soon. These verses lay the foundation, between which and others I have found no contradictions.

   Now, I would ask, do you understand and believe this? (with the caviat, that more will given to balance out the apparent Calvinistic tenor). I am not a Calvinist, nor an Armenian, but perhaps one could say a little of both, or entirely neither.

-john
Sandy McCoy- Foust said:

John

I did read verse 12 as well as 13..sorry, just didnt state that..Your question to me...
What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?

Im not quite sure what you are saying.....could you explain further?..I have read and reread..John1:12&13..as well as Heb 6:4-6..and then your question once more...I have a clue but before I elaborate ..give me a little more to chew on please......Are you asking if I feel you need to choose ..to receive him... before we can become a child of God?

 

Thanks,

Sandy

 

John Bennett said:

Ryan:

   If anyone desires to hear a version of this issue that they have never heard before, in which I have found no contradiction, which answers the Calvinist contention as well as the Armenian, that is only based on scripture and not opinion, if one can approach it with the faith of a child, then I would be willing to explain. If I'm wrong, then I ask others to show, by the scripture, me the error of my belief, and I will discard mine, or at least modify to conform to His.

   I believe the Lord has showed me, and throughout my life a few others, the real Truth to explain these supposed  unexplainables" from the scripture. The notion that no one will ever understand something, or that we must agree to disagree, I believe, is contrary to the very nature of God. The Lord desires to show us all truth, He also desires us all to be of the same mind. It is we who inhibit this goal, not Him. Therefore, I believe that the only obstacle to understanding anything about the gracious Lord is actually my own stubborness and unwillingness to admit that I may actually be wrong or that I may actually be lacjing in some knowledge of His ways. I would hope that all believers endeaver to maintain this form of humilty in their search for the Truth.
   Is anyo0ne at least curious? If I sound proud, please, I try not to be. I am just so always filled with joy and excitiement when I believe that the Lord has show me a new gem of Truth. A flawless diamond of Truth, no matter how small. I would rather have one tiny diamond of truth that is absolutely pure, than a whole treasury of flawed precious stones.

   So what'll it be?

-john
Ryan Spear said:

John,

I've been on both sides of the fence with the Arminian and Calvin beliefs. The subject is more of the tree of knowledge of good and evil than of the tree of life to discuss. In other words it has the potential to be divisive (relationship breaking). I love the subject though. Like Eve, the subject is good for spiritulal food, pleasent to the eyes and a subject to be desired to make one wise, to know what God knows.

I ate of this forbidden subject and my eyes were opened to my own pride. To think I once thought I had the power to tell God what to do, meaning He had to save me because I, yes "I" made the right choice... by the power of my own free will. Yup, God could have never saved me without my permission.

 

At the same time, I also believe God has the power to give everyone exactly what they want just as He gave Satan his own kingdom so that he could be like God.

 

When it comes to Heb 6:4-6, as it doesn't give any example of circumstances to getting to the fallen away point, I remember an older woman at the motel I was staying who stated she wanted nothing to do with God because of her messed up life circumstance she was in. If a person has a life comparable to Job and blames and curses God for thier missery, hardening thier hearts, especially at an older age, as I get older here myself in understanding this, yes I can see it is impossible to renew them to repentance.

John Bennett said:

Sandy:

 

   Actually vs 12 was my first point, not vs 13. And to fully understand how I view Heb 6:4-6 as for an unbeliever, we would have to explore a few more verses. What do you think that "receiving Him" means as opposed to (before being able to) "become the sons of God" ?

   This different understanding also explains the mystery of the argument between the Calvinists and the Armenians.

   If not interested, I understand.

John

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Frank on September 10, 2011 at 11:44am

Hi Ryan.

I have interspersed my thoughts in bold within your writing to make it easier to follow.

Ryan Spear said:

Frank,

 

In responce to 2 Pet 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

 

Who was the epistle of 2 Peter written to?

2 Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:"

Answer: Christians

Frank says,

I partly agree with you, but would point out that 2 Peter3v1 makes it clear that the letter is a continuation from his first letter,-1Peter, which states in its intro that Peter is addressing the believing Jews who were dispersed amongst the nations, therefore he is not addressing Gentile Christians here. This fact is critical in understanding Peter's message. Not understanding this simple fact means that you will completely get the wrong end of the stick when expounding the letter!

The people group Peter is identifying with in the letter is not merely those spiritually born again, but those born from the physical bloodstock of Abraham, the tribe of Israel, an Israel which had always had a struggle with unbelief. this fact is spoken about throughout the scriptures.

Ryan continues-

Now 2 Pet 3:9 Italicized mine "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any [of us Christians] should perish, but that all [of us Christians] should come to repentance." 

I added the 'of us Christians' in there that God is not slack concerning His promise to us believers but is longsuffering not willing that any of us should perish but that all of us come to repentence.

Frank says:-

I cannot agree with the above, your insertion of "of us Christians" is a complete misdirection.It is clear that both of Peter's letters are written to the believing Jews who were amongst the nations (listed in 1Peter). 2Peter3v9 is clearly referring to the unbelieving attitude of Israel through the ages, and still current at that time. Verse9 just confirms God's long-suffering towards Israel collectively, and that he has not destroyed them as a nation. The "us" referred to here is the collective, physical nation of Israel of which only some had responded to God with repentance.

Therefore he is NOT talking about the possibility of the believers he is writing to perishing in the judgement, nor that they needed to repent. V1 calls them "of pure minds".

 

Ryan continues-

Repentence is something that actually happens after one is saved. Acts 2:38 where Peter preaches to repent and be baptized, he was talking to already believing Jews. Notice Peter never said to 'believe'.

 

Frank says,

This statement is a total invention.  To declare that repentance "happens after one is saved", flies in the face of the whole bible! I am amazed that you can hold on to such obvious falsehood.

(Obviously I understand that all believers need to repent when they sin, in order to maintain fellowship with the Father)

I suggest you go to an online bible and see what the Greek word for repentance means. It basically means "To change one's mind", with a clear emphasis on our personal choice to do so.

Yes God loves the world. He loves His creation. We exist for His pupose and His pleasure. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes... This is a statement of a simple fact. Who ever believes has eternal life. Who ever doesn't does not have eternal life. What it does not say is "whosoever chooses to believe" should not perish. Where does Jesus or anyone ever state salvation is a choice of ours? "Ye have not chosen me but I have chosen you..." from John 14:15.

Frank says, You are bending the normal rules of language usage here to make your theology acceptable.

Eg. If I, Frank, "believed" all that you are saying here, I will have made a "choice" to believe, and most people would understand that I had simply made a "choice". I don't go around saying "I choose to believe Ryan", I would just tell them, "I believe Ryan". That is the commonly held understanding. You cannot make a doctrine from the absence of the word "choose".

"I believe" = "I choose to believe"! At least, that is what most of the English speaking world think when they say it.

 

Oh but what about Joshua 24:15? "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Who was Joshua talking to? People who came out of the desert who lived in the presents of God... cloud by day, fire by night... again believers. Joshua was also talking of 'serving' not 'believing'. As believers, we can choose every day to either please God or not please Him. A non-believer wakes up every day to not please God no matter how good thier works may be because they lack faith.

 

The extent of our so called free wills goes as far as our physical lives in this physical world God put us as man in charge of.

Frank says, No biblical evidence that freewill has any such limit Ryan! 

We can do anything we choose in this world, to the world and He will not interfere. We can love each other or kill each other... But the one thing we can't physically do is save our souls or the souls of others as John 1:13 talks, "...not of the will of the flesh or the will of man." This is one area that where there is total trust and reliance on God.

Frank says,-

Nobody on this thread has mentioned that "we save ourselves". I certainly don't believe such nonsense.

Ryan, this is a "Straw man" argument. You imply that I, Frank, believes something obviously unbiblical, and then score points against me by knocking it down. That's dead easy to do but a little pointless.

 

Ryan, if you are drowning in Mid Atlantic, and someone throws a rope within clear reach, it is YOUR DECISION to grab hold of the rope, NOT THE RESCUERS DECISION. You could insist on swimming all the way to shore under your own steam!

However, IT IS CLEARLY HE, AND HE ALONE, WHO SAVES YOU, YOU DIDN'T SAVE YOURSELF!!!!!!!

Similarly, IT IS YOUR DECISION TO ACCEPT THE SALVATION ROPE, THE RESCUER DIDN'T MAKE THAT DECISION FOR YOU!!!!

Likewise, GOD DOES NOT MAKE THE DECISION FOR YOU, WHEN HE OFFERS SALVATION TO YOU. 

It is up to you alone!

This is why it says that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just the believers. Some people just don't want to be saved, so they reject the whisper of the Holy Spirit and go off on their own way to eternal damnation.

Just to put your scripture quotation above into a true context, go to the previous verse.

Jn1v12. But as many as "received" him, he gave them power to become the children of God.

Take the word "received" from the above verse, I have pasted the explanation of the Greek word (Lambano) and you will see clearly that it implies an ACTIVE participatory choice of the receiver, and is not passive!

 

2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983 /lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition(assertiveness) of the receiver.

We can't meditate and will our souls to heaven.

Frank says, Who said we ever did that? Another straw man argument.

For we as believers salvation is nothing more to be concerned or worried about. That's settled. We have a relationship with God and we can please God by bearing fruit... love, joy, peace,...etc.

 

This subject, although I love it, is a tree of knowledge, theology even, speaks of the gospel but is not the gospel. This is we greeks and our lust for wisdom... digging to understand truth and the things of God... yea, and probably missing the point being our focus is on the mechanics of it all. I call it FYI knowlege that is not necessary for anyone to know in order to be saved or make one a better Christian. It just fun to discuss.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Frank on September 10, 2011 at 4:36pm

Hi Ryan

Again I have interspersed my responses amongst your comment to try and tie it together

Ryan Spear said:

Hi John,

 

I read through your explaination a couple times and this stuck out most:

John Bennett said:

Please wait for the verses. God imparts a temporary measure of grace to every unbeliever, perhaps multiple times in their lives, so as to temporarily have "eyes to see, ears to hear" the message of the Saviour, to "receive Him."

 

I was hoping you'd share the verses that explained the above statement but maybe you are in the next reply.

 

I had grown up Baptist. They were on the side of salvation was a choice but once you were saved you could never be lost. So in other words, you could choose to be saved but once saved, you could not choose to be unsaved. I concider Baptists as kind of straddling the fence between election and free-will. Toward the end I disagreed with this. Either you could choose to be saved and then choose not to be or it is God's choice who is saved and those who are saved can't choose to be unsaved.

 

The bad thing about the far free-will side is that the blood of Jesus is only as strong as the human will. It goes only as far as our abiltiy to keep up the good works after we are saved. It make Jesus look weak and that much of His blood was shead for nothing. The free will side puts people under a lot of pressure and worry about staying saved and causes people in the end to rely on thier own efforts more than just trusting in the Jesus, God's provision for thier salvation.

 

Frank says,

Ryan, again you present straw man arguments.

Ryan, has anyone here said that salvation has anything to do with good works, or implied that staying saved is dependent on maintaining those good works?

I'm pretty sure everyone here considers that salvation is a free gift that comes NOT from any good works we might possibly do, but from the death of Jesus alone!

Also, I have no idea how you imagine that my freewill puts me under any pressure to stay saved. I am born from above because my heavenly father's seed is in me, and cannot be un-born from above, anymore than I can be un-born from my earthly father's seed in my physical body.

Do you not comprehend the parable of the prodigal son? Nothing wicked the young man could do would ever, ever, ever, eradicate his sonship. All that resulted from his rebellion was that he excluded himself from fellowship with his father, that is until he humbled himself and returned. 

I have no desire to rebel against my heavenly father, but should I do so, I know that I will always be his son. Whilst I am on this earth, there will of course be consequences of my rebellion, but that is different to losing my eternal relationship with my heavenly father. 

 I also cannot for a moment comprehend what you mean in your statement about much of Jesus blood being shed for nothing.

 As a reader of the bible, you will clearly know that Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE  world. Therefore, your theology that God selectively chooses a limited number for eternal life, will also guarantee a whole load of his blood was shed for nothing. (If you apply it for one, it applies for the other!)

Now, I have to say that, not for a moment, do I hold with the idea that the blood of Jesus can be shed for nothing, I was only using Ryan's own argument against him!

Jesus died once and for all. That is a fact. Whether for one man, one million men, or ten gazillion men. It was one man's death for one time. The blood of Jesus is not shared out drop by drop around those who are saved. We are all hid in him, just as we were all once hid in Adam.

We know that Adam, prior to his fall had a choice. You say and I agree talking of God, "He/she can't, that is, on their own,in their own strength, power, will, choice, intelligence, desire - in any way." Once a person is saved, they have been restored the position Adam and Eve were in prior to the fall. After a person is saved, they are given the free will of choice again as Adam had. Would you say that or believe that a person after they are saved can honestly reject God, having thier free will restored?

 

Without the intervention of God, a person will always reject God or even if they wanted to, they could never see Jesus in any different way than say, Santa Clause. I don't believe in Santa because I can't. I can tell you everything about Santa Clause but I don't believe he exists or existed as the stories say. As far as the temporary measure of grace, what about the Jews who had Jesus in front of their eyes and couldn't see Him to believe? Matt 13:14-15 (see bold) Where is this temporary grace for them?

 

Frank says

You have no evidence for the above hypothesis.  It is as mythological as your Santa Claus story. Nowhere in scripture is there evidence of such!

(I happen to agree with your rejection of the notion of a temporary measure of grace. It is just another religious mythology. 

Romans1v18 is so abundantly clear.-

The wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.19. Because, THAT WHICH MAY BE KNOWN OF GOD IS MANIFEST IN THEM FOR GOD HAS SHOWN IT UNTO THEM.20. For the invisible things of Him (GOD) from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made (US), even his eternal power and Godhead.

SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE!!!!!!! 

This and plenty other verses make it clear that God is always at work on our consciences. When a person looks at the beauty of creation, whether the countryside or a newborn baby, they can go to two extremes.

1) Isn't God amazing.

2) Isn't evolution amazing.

The spirit however is always working to convict a person of the truth. It is our internal choice to reject this spiritual whisper which induces blindness on ourselves. The parable of the sower shows how the spirit is working on our hearts, and how when we reject the word of God, that Satan comes and snatches it away. The responsibility to accept the word is always ours. 

• [14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and  seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
• [15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Rom 8:11) "(According as it is written, GOD hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;)... and so they were lost by God's choice, yet not even against thier will. Amazing how that worked out.... and it is scary.

Frank says,

This scripture is simply a description of the GENERAL state of NATIONAL Israel. It cannot be universally applied otherwise the disciples would never have responded to John the Baptist or to Jesus.

Matt 13:16 "But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

 

Ryan

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ryan Spear on September 10, 2011 at 7:51pm

Frank,

 

You prove my point of this subject as the "Tree of knowledge of good and evil". This is one of many reasons for a divided church like the object of the broken relationship between God and man in the garden. Jesus Christ is the tree of life.

 

Take what Paul said in 1 Cor 1:22 "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:" This was a negative statement and something to kind of be guarding against with ourselves.

 

What are we [greeks] doing here? Or what have we done with all our great study? What do we seek? We are seeking truth,.. right, so we can be wise with our knowlege of the bible or God?

 

IN SEEKING THIS truth WE BLIND OURSELVES. Someone said in this forum somewhere and in another post.... Jesus is the Truth.... Jesus the Person is the Truth. The doctrine of election, or free-will or justification or sanctification or what ever other doctrines there be; (can anybody ever get these right? I don't know); truth or truths, seemingly as enlightening as these can be, do nothing for anyone, saved or unsaved.

 

What ever stance we hold on THIS particular subject here... What does it do for us? Is knowing any of this here making any of us a better Christian? ....John, John, John... pointed out something new I had never seen. Yes! Jesus never told anyone they had to ask for forgiveness. I HAVE TO AGREE. HOW ENLIGHTENING!!!! I now know something new!.. Woo Hoo! What does this new great knowledge do for me?.  .  .  nothing.  I'm all exited I learned something new I had not known. But honestly, this new 'truth' is useless.  It don't help to save the lost or help to make me a better Christian.

 

I'm not saying that studying the bible is bad or a waste of time. This subject, I may throw into the 'waste of time' catagory. I suppose we can call this a good waste of time... definately divisive.  We all need to keep in mind we don't want to be like it says in 2 Tim 3:7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." I believe this 'truth' is talking about Christ or the gospel, thank goodness. We can get so caught up in searching out all the other 'truths' small 't' in the bible and divide ourselves over them, we loose focus on the Truth that holds us together into one body.  I compare this to hitting myself in the head or punching myself in the stomach or stabbing my own leg. Who would want the body of Christ to be fighting itself and have the arms cutting off the legs because they don't agree on some USELESS doctrine as this?

 

Yea, I hashed this subject out 9 years ago and it all comes flooding back. What did it do for me? It just got me focusing on the wrong things for a while making me one of those Greeks seeking to be wise. I want everyone here to just think for a second that the more knoledgeable and wise we get, the more we become fools, especially if we allow our wisdom and conclusions to divied ourselves from other Christians. So just think about this and concider when getting into these touchy subjects as life goes on.

 

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Frank on September 11, 2011 at 9:14am

Hi John, 

I hope you don't mind, but I have dissected your comment down to key paragraphs which I want to highlight. I have inserted my responses in bold and underlined.

Prior to reading the following responses to yours, I want to paint a picture, to help illustrate a point. This is an enlargement to the picture I described on Ryan's comment.-

You, John, are in mid Atlantic ocean. You have fallen overboard and are exhausted and slowly drowning. A ship comes along and a rope is thrown down to you. The sailor shouts for you to grab hold of the rope, but you recognise the voice and the face, someone whom you have always despised.

You now have a problem. To grab the rope means humbling yourself. there is a battle going on within you now. Your pride tells you to turn away and start swimming again, you can save yourself without any help!

The voice from above keeps encouraging you to grab, but you are in an excruciating dilemma, a battle of pride, prejudice, and self righteousness within needs to be resolved. The agony of soul is now overwhelming, on top of the ever present risk of drowning.

Finally, you swallow your pride. There is a massive surrender within you, and you reach out and take hold of the rope. You are safe now, but a completely different person has come out of the water compared to the one who fell in. Something arrogant has drowned back there. 

 

Q1) Who saved you?

Q2) Who made the decision to accept salvation?

Q3) Did you rescue yourself?

 

Clearly you would have drowned if there had been no rescuer. 

Clearly, the rescuer needed your agreement to be rescued.

Clearly, it would be false to say, that just because you grabbed the rope, you rescued yourself.

John said 

   SO, how does the unbeliever who will only choose sin because of his/her depraved state, freely choose God? And How can a very loving God draw these blind, deaf creatures without forcing them?

Frank says,

There is nowhere in scripture which says man cannot choose to hear when God speaks. All those around Jesus heard him speak, the problem is that they rejected the words because of SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS. They clearly didn't need God, in their own minds, they were good enough.

The bible is full of calls to repent, (or turn around). If personal response to this call is an impossibility, then the message of repentance is nonsense.

John said

   Please wait for the verses. God imparts a temporary measure of grace to every unbeliever, perhaps multiple times in their lives, so as to temporarily have "eyes to see, ears to hear" the message of the Saviour, to "receive Him."

Frank says-

John, sorry to say it, but this "temporary measure of grace" is pure fiction, -unbiblical mythology.

James4v6 says.-But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

This scripture makes it clear that the one and only condition for receiving grace from God is to be humble. God is always there, and his grace is always there. Proud people don't want it though.

Just as my "Frank" parable above illustrates, the proud swimmer cannot grab the rope without first humbling his pride, a chosen act of his will.  

Therefore, it is impossible for a man to receive grace (whatever the definition) or any other gift if he maintains pride in his own self. It contradicts scripture.

PRIOR TO RECEIVING THE GOD'S HELP, ADMISSION OF FAILURE IS REQUIRED. CONTINUED BELIEF IN OUR OWN ABILITY MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE TO FOR US TO ACCEPT GOD'S SALVATION, OR TO ACCEPT THE HOLY SPIRIT'S PRIOR PERSUASION. OR TO ACCEPT GOD'S GRACE.

 

This is the principle I wanted to examine in my original post.

A proud man will always reject the advances of the Holy Spirit. A proud man can manage without help. A proud man does not need saving because he is already quite good enough for heaven in his own right!

Grace is always available to everyone, at any time. It is not given in spurts. The Holy Spirit is all around everyone, if we would only start to look and listen to the wind of the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is always evident in the struggle people have with their conscience when various matters arise. This is true for evil and for good people, believers and unbelievers.

Grace cannot be received without there first being a defeat and surrender.

John Said

   As it is written, "for by grace have you been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

 

Frank says

Grace is the freewill action of God in extending his presence towards us, like the rescuer, above, with the rope. Faith is our decision to receive it.

Grace is freely available before and after salvation. It is about the character of God reaching towards man.

 

John said

   The "grace" in this verse is not the gift, but the faith to believe the message, is the gift. Grace is unmerritted favor, or, in other words, a gift.

 

Frank says,

Faith

Throughout scripture, and life in general, faith is when we personally exercise our choice to believe and take hold of something. This is true when we fly on an aeroplane for the first time, or trust the whisper of God in our heart.

We choose to exercise trust in whoever is in control. It is incongruous to give faith a different meaning for this one application!

If God were to force his own decision on us, or upon a certain number of us, then it denies the overall pattern of freewill demonstrated in scripture, and makes God into a manipulator.

 

Grace

Although it is the standard definition, GRACE IS NOT SIMPLY UNMERITED FAVOUR!!!!

If grace is UNMERITED, why can't the proud also have it, as well as the humble? If it is truly unmerited favour, then we should all have it in equal measure! 

If God gives grace to a proud man to enable him to believe, then it contradicts scripture which says only humble people get it!

Just to further nail this error.- I am sure you agree with scripture, that Jesus was full of grace. Does that mean Jesus was full of unmerited favour? I think not!

Therefore what is the correct word for "unmerited favour". Simple, the most commonly used word is, MERCY! 

Mercy is the correct word for "unmerited favour". 

Heb4v15 If grace is unmerited favour, then-

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace (unmerited favour), that we may obtain mercy (unmerited favour), and find grace (unmerited favour) to help in time of need.

A little redundancy of words here I think.

 

John said

A totally free gift. It would be redundant, as in Jhn 1:12, for God to say that the gift is a gift. The "gift of God" is the faith. In God's love, "the love of Christ which passeth knowledge", God has seen the damage that Satan, Adam, and our own selves have inflicted on each one of us. The effect of the sinfulness of lost mankind is that we could never see Him, never hear His voice, never understand His message, or believe to be saved without help.

Frank says

There are many times in scripture where God directly speaks to various fallen man and also directly to a fallen Satan! Your "never able to see or hear or understand" scenario makes nonsense of these verses.

Any inability to respond is caused directly by our pride and refusal of the work of the Holy Spirit on our hearts. -The very blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that Jesus describes.

Such blasphemy will never be forgiven because such blasphemy is the actual personal refusal of that forgiveness.

This is why a believer cannot commit that particular blasphemy. A believer has already accepted salvation, and as such has been born into the sonship of God.

Paul makes it clear in Romans 1 that there is no excuse for our rejection of the truth.

 

John said

And so, with everyone that has become a new creation in Christ, God, at some or many points in their lives has given the gift of faith to the depraved unbeliever so that they could, for at least a moment or short period (or many moments in their life), see the Truth, Receive the Truth, Believe the Truth. It would be unjust for God to require a lost person, with no possible way of choosing God on his/her own, to choose Him without some help.

Frank says

Again John, you present no evidence for such special short periods of grace being given in such a manner. The Holy Spirit is able to penetrate right through to the heart. Responding to the Lord is not about our intellect agreeing with the preacher. It is about our heart agreeing with the impregnation of the Holy Spirit.

Your use of the word "depraved" unbeliever carries false connotations which mislead people into adopting Calvin's thoughts on the matter rather than scripture's.

I find it sad because I agree with your stand on freewill for the most part. You just complicate and convolute it with extra biblical terminology which leads people astray.

Your claim that an unbeliever cannot respond to God has no foundation. The bible is flowing with such evidence and expectation that man will respond. I can't comprehend why you are blind to it.

John,

I am sure you will come back on this!

I have deleted the rest of your comment, not out of disrespect, but just to try and precis this response. It gives a clearer focus to address the separate points.

I also deleted the copies -of the copies -of the copies -of previous comments! The constant repetition of the previous makes me dizzy!

Even though we disagree on some things, it is good to have an honest faithful discussion. We both believe freewill is sacrosanct which is good.

I hope I have not sounded arrogant. Sometimes I get accused of such things when I am just trying to be straight. Part of it comes from being a Yorkshireman! We speak a little blunt in the north of England.

Blessings to you.

Frank

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Frank on September 11, 2011 at 2:45pm

Ryan, 

You have passed loads of comment on this thread, to which I have responded.

Then, instead of dealing with my scriptural challenge to your theology, you hide behind all this pious talk about the Tree of Knowledge.

If you really have faith in your theological viewpoint, you should be able to defend it from wise use of scripture, and not use evasion tactics when it gets difficult.

 

To declare that I prove your point of this subject as "The Tree of Knowledge", makes no sense whatsoever. I am not sure whether it is an insult, a criticism, or a joke.

Why not actually address the points I raised?

Frank

Ryan Spear said:

Frank,

 

You prove my point of this subject as the "Tree of knowledge of good and evil". This is one of many reasons for a divided church like the object of the broken relationship between God and man in the garden. Jesus Christ is the tree of life.

 

Take what Paul said in 1 Cor 1:22 "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:" This was a negative statement and something to kind of be guarding against with ourselves.

 

What are we [greeks] doing here? Or what have we done with all our great study? What do we seek? We are seeking truth,.. right, so we can be wise with our knowlege of the bible or God?

 

IN SEEKING THIS truth WE BLIND OURSELVES. Someone said in this forum somewhere and in another post.... Jesus is the Truth.... Jesus the Person is the Truth. The doctrine of election, or free-will or justification or sanctification or what ever other doctrines there be; (can anybody ever get these right? I don't know); truth or truths, seemingly as enlightening as these can be, do nothing for anyone, saved or unsaved.

 

What ever stance we hold on THIS particular subject here... What does it do for us? Is knowing any of this here making any of us a better Christian? ....John, John, John... pointed out something new I had never seen. Yes! Jesus never told anyone they had to ask for forgiveness. I HAVE TO AGREE. HOW ENLIGHTENING!!!! I now know something new!.. Woo Hoo! What does this new great knowledge do for me?.  .  .  nothing.  I'm all exited I learned something new I had not known. But honestly, this new 'truth' is useless.  It don't help to save the lost or help to make me a better Christian.

 

I'm not saying that studying the bible is bad or a waste of time. This subject, I may throw into the 'waste of time' catagory. I suppose we can call this a good waste of time... definately divisive.  We all need to keep in mind we don't want to be like it says in 2 Tim 3:7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." I believe this 'truth' is talking about Christ or the gospel, thank goodness. We can get so caught up in searching out all the other 'truths' small 't' in the bible and divide ourselves over them, we loose focus on the Truth that holds us together into one body.  I compare this to hitting myself in the head or punching myself in the stomach or stabbing my own leg. Who would want the body of Christ to be fighting itself and have the arms cutting off the legs because they don't agree on some USELESS doctrine as this?

 

Yea, I hashed this subject out 9 years ago and it all comes flooding back. What did it do for me? It just got me focusing on the wrong things for a while making me one of those Greeks seeking to be wise. I want everyone here to just think for a second that the more knoledgeable and wise we get, the more we become fools, especially if we allow our wisdom and conclusions to divied ourselves from other Christians. So just think about this and concider when getting into these touchy subjects as life goes on.

 

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ryan Spear on September 14, 2011 at 7:17pm

 

Frank said:

Romans1v18 is so abundantly clear.-

The wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.19. Because, THAT WHICH MAY BE KNOWN OF GOD IS MANIFEST IN THEM FOR GOD HAS SHOWN IT UNTO THEM.20. For the invisible things of Him (GOD) from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made (US), even his eternal power and Godhead.

SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE!!!!!!!

Yes I believe this.... yes, EVERYONE BELIEVESE THERE IS "....A...." GOD!!!!!!  A SUPREME BEING!!!! As I've heard.

 

Unfortunately. Salvation comes by FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST!!!! DA! Isn't this going to suck for the people who only believe there is a God like some of the Jews. And why didn't those peticular Jew believe?.. as Jesus said in John 10:25-26 "I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, (WHY?) because ye are not of my sheep," OH,.. it wasn't because they 'chose' not to believe? No. They didn't believe because they were not HIS sheep. They were some one elses sheep... John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

 

You haven't built any case for free will. I get mostly human responses and reasoning to write off explicit verses. Lets continue with not just verses but a whole chaper.  No accusing me of picking and choosing verses and phrases to make the bible say what I want it to.

 

Ephesians.1

[1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, (whos will? Pauls?) to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
[2] Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[4] According as he hath chosen us [saints] in him before the foundation of the world, (what about what I want now?) that we [saints] should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[5] Having predestinated us (excuse me but shouldn't I be given a choice in this first?) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (What about my will and choice?)
[6] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
[8] Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (what about me and what I want to know?)
[10] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[11] In whom also we [saints] have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh ALL things after the counsel of HIS own will: (what about what I want? Where is my choice in this?)
[12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, (where is the 'choice'? I want to see the word 'choose') ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
[15] Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
[16] Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
[17] That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
[18] The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; (did I choose to be enlighened?) that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
[19] And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, (you mean I didn't believe because I chose to? This can't be right.)
[20] Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
[21] Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
[22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
[23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

 

According to Ephesians 1:19 belief is the work of God's mighty power and until you give me more than one explicit verse that states a person must 'choose' to believe, than 'free-will' when it comes to faith in Jesus Christ is a myth, a theory. Heb 12:2 states that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.

 

In accordance with the above chapter we have Acts 13:48"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Dosn't sound like a choice to me.

 

Also Acts 2:46-47 to get the whole thought.

[46] And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
[47] Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.  (no choice mentioned)

 

I use to be a free-willer like you but there was just too much explicit evidence to the contrary for me to continue with that very human perspective.  The bible doesn't teach that a person has to make a choice when it comes to having faith. Faith is a  gift and a 'given' through the work of God through the Holy Spirit and the Gospel. Our 'obedience' to the gospel is the first work of the Holy Spirit in us... proof... 1 Peter 1:2: we are "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience...." Obedience to what? The gospel.  We were elected to believe the Gospel.

 

Jesus did not choose me to choose Him. He chose me to faith. As the old saying goes, "Seeing is believing." My understanding was enlignened...Eph 1:18 and my belief the work of God's mighty power. I didn't choose to believe. I believed because I could see. Do you get it? Or are you still in the dark?

 

Ryan

 

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Permalink Reply by Ryan Spear on September 16, 2011 at 6:58pm

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you... ...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

For who hath resisted his will?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.  

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