Detoxing from institutionalism

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Miguel on November 27, 2008 at 7:55am

Thanks Katie for your post, and I hope this discussion leads to fruit and clarification. As one who has just recently begun the exploration into an organic or Un-Institutional expression of church, it does pose difficulties as does any major paradigm shift. I tend to be a research hound and read veraciously. I have also engaged in various discussions with folks who are totally committed to simple church ideology and have read many different opinions on the matter.

As one who is a product of the institutional church for the past 25 years, I would be the first to admit that my lingo and philosophies are very much tainted by my experiences. That said, I also am not one to commit intellectual suicide by accepting illogical and false arguments against the tenants of the institutional church just because they were produced there. The mother of all straw man arguments mantra for simple church folks seems to be, "If it comes form the institutional church, its wrong." I can not be intellectually or spiritually responsible and accept that.

I am currently not convinced that Simple or Organic Church is the only biblically valid expression of the gathering of God's people. There are some in the movement who maintain that thought.

This may be hard for some to hear, but as of yet I have not seen any significantly enticing to make me yearn for the fellowship in the simple church expression. I have seen smaller versions of ALL the problems complained about in the institutional church. I have observed that there exclusive "us only" ideas that smack of denominationalism, there are a wide variety of views on leadership structure, there is a genuine disrespect for the authority of scripture, and there has been significant bickering on this board to make me leery.

In the movie "The Patriot" with Mel Gibson, he said "Why should I trade one tyrant 3000 miles away for 3000 tyrants one mile away?"

The proximity of God's people is always something I have yearned for. But in the case of Simple or Organic Church, I am still waiting to see why this expression would be something for me.

Permalink Reply by Doug Hudson on November 27, 2008 at 8:56am

After over 30 years in various forms of IC, I was ready to leave this whole "Christianity" thing somewhere in a closet in the basement. I searched for some sort of life, someone somewhere who actually believed what they said and lived what they said. I simply was not able to find or be one of those. Looking back, what I was missing were genuine relationships. It is easy to find genuine people outside the church, but in the church, everyone I knew put on a mask of religion and it was phony. I was good at it myself. I wanted to find a way to be authentic in church like I could be around a campfire on a hunting trip or in a boat on a lake with friends. Religion kept getting in the way. Home groups had possibility that just could not seem to break away from the Sunday Morning paradigm. Then over a period of a few years and some deliverance work, I began to find that in the simple church movement, we could be in genuine relationships in people's homes and really get to know one another. Then the Holy Spirit began to do things in us and in our groups, things that got in the way of the service in the IC. Us ordinary people could hear form God, could speak up, could participate and bring value. We could share the gut wrenching hurts with each other and find ways to help each other. For me, it was a freedom and responsibility I did not know was possible. We are finding healing that I looked for for over 30 years and I simply love it. I know my experience is not for others, it is for me. I find I am sensitive to those ways of thinking that brought pain in the past, the paradigms of the IC and I find I do avoid them because I associate them with pain and loss. So, if I react to IC thinking in our groups, I know it is a reaction and I choose to move beyond it. I love the simple church paradigm with all its warts and flaws.

Permalink Reply by Stephen (steve) Cornell on November 27, 2008 at 9:12am

After graduating from seminary in 1980, I spent 16 years in and out of formal "reved up" ministry and eldership under the auspices of denomination with all its trappings. I spent half my time frustrated and looking for some other way to do what God was asking me to do. God had mercy on me and 13 years ago put me and my family in FL in situation where we really could not do Formal IC ministry. Still I hung around the old corral as a lay elder with my guns strapped on. Tried a lot of alternatives, like applying for a job as a security guard at a gospel campground, doing a stint for a month as a DJ at a christian radio station. Candidated for pastorates at two places. Doors closing in my face all over, until I got "secular" work.

Now that I am "officially" non-denominational, no credentials, and not going back to "Revved" life, yes, that past life is still there. But I really do see it as a journey that I was following Jesus "through". It's not that He was not with me, just that He was moving through that area and if I wish to keep up with Him, I really have to leave that area behind! My main challenge is to continue to ride the "desire-change" train until my desires are all one with whatever Abba desires!

My brother Ben Brooks and I really do see it as the need to detox from formal ministry. The urge to control, to gather power over others and derive our sense of purpose, not from serving the master, but from the power others give us, instead of God. The Lord's prayer puts it best "yours the kingdom, the power, the glory" and not unto us! Just show us another way to crawl back down of the throne!

When we came to FL, my wife's mom had just died and we were here, in large part to take care of her dad. He passed away last year in May. All the time in between, has been a time of grief for me over my past ministry career and God's resurrecting me in newness in Christ as ... what? it has yet to be seen what the Father will do, but I'm just hanging in there trying to follow my trailblazer up the mountain trail he has blazed!

Any and all insights are welcome!
Steve C.

Permalink Reply by Suzette Lambert on November 27, 2008 at 2:45pm

I am a child of the IC. I was raised Lutheran (you don't go to a Lutheran church - you are Lutheran). It's part of your identity, and it had been in my family for generations. My great aunts were unmarried deconess in Germany in the Lutheran church. When I left the Lutheran Church at 25 my mother especially struggled. I moved on to a Four Square Church (the Lutheran church we were going to at the time was not sure they liked this tongue speaking Lutheran). Anyway, after 17 more years in some type of post Azuza street denomination, we left the IC. I had been everything from a youth pastor, assistant pastor, worship leadership, on the platform every service type of life. Father in His kindness took me off the platform nearly 2 years before we left. When we did leave, once again my mother was upset. I think my parents questioned my salvation, as salvation and going to church is so tied together in this country.
When we first came out we were tied with others who also just came out, and it just didn't work. The only thing we really had in common was most of us had left the same church. Didn't work. I think I thought we needed to be of one mind, just like the church, which doesn't work either. So, on we go.
So, the detox process has been interesting. My church most of the time happens over the phone. I spend time with Father and He continually corrects me, along with some great friends who challenge me as well.
I feel more free, my relationship with Father is more free, and my relationship with others has more room in it for everyone to breathe, something I never allowed while in the IC.
I like it out here, although sometimes it still feels lonely. I know I am way to far past going back. Don't get me wrong, I love those in the IC, they are my brothers and sisters. I just don't live there anymore. It doesn't work for me.

Permalink Reply by Sean Steckbeck on November 28, 2008 at 4:20am

I got saved in a Southern Baptist church when I was five years old in Tennessee. This was just a year after my parents, who were heathens, were saved because of a supernatural experience they had. Even though they had an encounter with the supernatural, Southern Baptists is all they knew and the Baptists thought especially my mom was weird.

Later my mom led a youth group who started seeing hundreds saved and led them into the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and was later kicked out by the Southern Baptist convention for it and out of the church and the youth ministry. Most of the youth left to different charismatic churches after this event. So did we.

I went to a charismatic church, and then AG, but most of my relationship with God was not from church, but during my quiet time and my evangelism times at my local high school where I led tens of people to Yeshua, mostly poor people.
The local AG church mostly did not understand me and found me strange (especially since I promoted loving the stinky and the poor)... but God would always encourage me.

Later I went to Brownsvlle Revival School of Ministry in Pensacola and got my call to Israel and met my Israeli wife, two years later we married.
After moving to Israel and starting a "missions ministry", I became youth pastor of the largest indigeneous Hebrew-speaking messianic congregation in Israel.
I raised up leaders and released the youth group's leadership to these leaders I raised up and later went to be on staff at a Messianic Discipelship Training Center and Apostolic Ministry Team in Jerusalem.
It was here where I decided to leave the Institution and become a simple church guy.

After leaving the above ministry to embrace the simple, I moved to the Negev desert.
The first year I was in the desert it was like a literal Hell for me, God stripped me of everything, didn't let me work, didn't let me do ministry, and just told me to be content with my identity in Him alone.

Later I went to America just to "recover" from this experience, and part of the healing process was reading Tim's book mentioned above when I visited Portal Georgia. It was also in America that my wife met Jim Rutz personally who finally convinced her to head the same direction as me while my wife was being interviewed by Sid Roth's "Its Supernatural" TV show.

I returned to Israel encouraged, and the Lord spoke to us that now that we have our identity in Him, I can return to the ministry and start planting house congregations. This was after a year and a half of doing practically no ministry.

Upon our return we adoped 10 Sudanese refugee families who escaped Sudan (about 20 people), and then Egypt for Israel.
4 of the families lived in our house with us for 3 months.
It was great taking care of them and loving them, however, it ended with them taking advantage of us and lying to us and leaving because of the shame they had about doing it even though with us encouraging them not to leave and making up.

We then started planting house congregations and taking care of the poor in our city.
However, we started planting the house congregations leaderless altogether.

It wasn't until I met my mentor and spiritual father Marco Gmur and visited him in Switzerland and also saw Florian Bartsch's movement in Luccerne that I realized that leaderless movements produce no fruit. We don't need leaderless movements, but rather servant leaders who lift up the body and serve their calling. However, we need elders, and we need 1 Cor 14 ministry.

Later Wolfgang Simson visited us here and confirmed our hearts about needing servant leaders.

Later, Marco really imparted to me that it is discipleship and not house church planting which is biblical.


Since then..... we have gone from being part of a hierarchal movement to being totally leaderless, and now to planting a movement that needs elders but with Yeshua as the head and the body doing the majority of the ministry (and not the leaders).

Later I also met Victor Choudhrie in an outreach trip to Israelis in India.
He mentored me for many days, and this really encouraged me about the direction and understanding of the whole thing.

Also Keith and Jeanne Smith are also dear friends who help me work this thing out.
But my greatest encouragement comes from my mentor, Marco Gmur.

I think it is important to have a coach/coaches when trying to understand this direction.

Before I had the direction and friendship of Marco Gmur, Victor Choudhrie, Keith Smith, and the movement in Luccerne..... I was lost and saw house church as a leaderless movement that could bear fruit.

I am thankful for mentors who help you in the journey!

Permalink Reply by Nik P. on November 29, 2008 at 10:40pm

Thanks (Rev) Katie, DMin (LOL)
I was always on the outside of churches looking in, seeking fellowship but always being presented with hurdles like: 4 weekly sessions of 'new member' classes. Why did I need a class to teach me how to be a member of the body of Christ? Wasn't I already that when I was saved?
It was unfortunately the same in seminary. I was poor, working full-time, and not connected with the die-hard denominational types. As my peers were already working as part-time youth pastors in local congregations, I was blessed to shadow the hospital chaplain where I was working. My call was always to medical ministry and not to pulpit supply!
So, if I have any detoxing to do, it is from the pain of being excluded by the "priesthood" and separated into the "audience" half. I believe in full participation in a priesthood of believers. Just building towards that right now!

(Rev.) Nik, M.Div., chaplain (ROFL)

Permalink Reply by Katie Mather on November 30, 2008 at 7:56am

Thanks to everybody who has shared so far. Thanks Nik for understanding that as I signed my comment above, it was disclosing some of my institutional mentality. The denom. IC that ordained my husband, does not ordain women. You can be hired full time in many different positions of church ministry and even have a doctorate but they will not ordain women. They are a missionary organization and have many women, married and single on the mission field but they will not ordain women. A friend of ours had been a missonary for years and is a ThD. but cannot be a Rev.

A pastors wife in many denominations is a non person. She is not clergy and so does not enjoy any of those IC perks, but she is also not a lay person and so must protect herself from other lay people. Although a pastor's wife is expected to serve in any and every capacity in church ministry, often she cannot serve on a church board. (Not all IC denominational churchs are this way.) So from this perspective, getting my education and subsequent ordination is a reaction to the abuses I felt I experienced in the IC. I admit that it is also IC. I need those credentials even now as I am out of the IC because I have opportunity to go back in there to minister to those who are still in there.

Just as we were leaving the IC, I was pursuing my college education. We were non denominational and therefore I was pursuing ordination as one of those who had aspired to the position of clergy. Even though we were out of IC by the time I've received both my degree and ordination, I see them now as tools rather than as titles. In the context of SC Tim and I are just part of the Body.

Thanks Nik for sharing about the pain. I think what this site has proven is that there is alot of pain out here. That is why some of these forum discussions are so heated as each are striving to be heard.

From what I've read here so far, I think that many don't recognize an institutional mentality. And what most people do upon leaving the IC is function in reaction to the IC. But both are still controlled by the IC mentality.

I recommend checking out Tim's blogs, Deinstituionalization parts 1 and 2. He is sharing excerpts from his ebook, Escaping Church: A Guide to Life Outside the Institution. It helps us to identify IC mentality and to take healthy steps toward detoxing and walking free.

Permalink Reply by Kristy on December 2, 2008 at 7:44pm

I grew up in a Christian family and went to IC for pretty much all my young childhood until my dad found a home church when I was in... middle school? Maybe high school. Anyway, the fact that I was so young made it much easier for me to change, but what really made it easier were my own observations of IC; I hated it. I loved god and understood he was there for me, but it was only through the efforts of my parents that I remained a Christian at all when I was attending IC. I hated how the system was inefficient, stifling, and hypocritical, and I was often ignored by my "superiors" when I attempted to point any of this out. Really, I was resigned to it more than anything.

It wasn't until I finally attended my first home church meeting that I even realized there was actually something better out there, and I grew more in the next few years in the spirit than I had in my entire life. So really, the transition was very easy for me to make since I had been pretty disgusted at IC for most of my life. Now I am 18 and I'm attending an art college. I go to the same home church as my family over breaks and attend a church when in college which is an extremely nontraditional church, though I'm not sure the exact category for it.

My dad recently mentioned that IC has turned the spiritual harvest into something mechanical, which is not necessarily how God wants the harvest to be. I then pointed out the other main problem with a mechanical harvest: it over-works and ruins the soil. Personally, I believe the IC is ruining the soil for the harvest and that only God can heal that soil.

Permalink Reply by Tim Mather on December 6, 2008 at 9:29am

Maybe we could explore the idea of SIMPLE. Most of the discussions get convoluted with doctrinal junk and the point gets lost. I think simple is the hardest thing. I constantly guard against making stuff too complitcated out here. Don't we have to return to our roots? We should come at this journey as little children, shedding all the IC bagage as we go. I recommend this simple formula when you don't know what to do or how to act out here: Ask, "What did I do when I was in the IC? AND DO THE OPPOSITE! In fact, this is the way to detox not just from the IC paradigm, but from the kingdom of darkness paradigm as well.

Thoughts?

Permalink Reply by Nik P. on December 6, 2008 at 6:11pm

Tim Mather said:

I recommend this simple formula when you don't know what to do or how to act out here: Ask, "What did I do when I was in the IC? AND DO THE OPPOSITE! In fact, this is the way to detox not just from the IC paradigm, but from the kingdom of darkness paradigm as well. Thoughts?

Argh! I can't seem to express it in "detox" wording, so please follow my analogy. I see this as a grief process because coming out of the I.C. is a loss. Like anything we lose, there is a period of shock & disbelief then we start the roller coaster of recovery. We bounce around without a set pattern, sometimes angry, sometimes sobbing, some people feeling just one predominant emotion. Sometimes a song, a holiday, something reminds us of that pain and it bubbles up again.

On a site like this, where we are all recovering from the same type of institution, people are always saying things that strike a chord with that grief within us. And then, BOOM, there is the feeling all over again. On a site like this, there are people at various stages of their grief process, some raw, some who have already integrated the old experience into their new lives, and everyone in between. It is good for those who have gained some perspective on it to be loving to their brothers who still find stumbling blocks all over.

My question is, when you are done "doing the opposite" and have come to accept the separation, what does the Newness of Simplicity look like? In the grieving process, people eventually come to a place where what-they-lost finds a different place in their heart and the energy that they had towards what-they-lost is freed to invest. In fact, grieving isn't finished until the energy is reinvested into something new.

I look forward to that simple church, where it is unfettered from the stumbling blocks of grieving and loosed to become simply what it is. I'm looking for fellowship with folks that can simply "be the church" without the knee-jerk reactions, over-thinking and anti-structuralism. I guess we get that fully in the New Creation, but I'd like Kingdom moments of it right now!

Permalink Reply by Cindy Skillman on December 6, 2008 at 10:04pm

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to look at whatever the IC is doing, and do the opposite (though in many cases, that would get you onto the right track). The IC (or at least, every IC) doesn't do everything wrong. In large part, much of their doctrine is scriptural, for example, and we wouldn't want to take that to the opposite tack. ICs do a lot of good. (Aaargh--don't shoot!) They really do. Not as much good as could be done, certainly, but they're full of people who are honestly seeking (and many times finding) God. When I look at all the things that are done wrong in the IC, it amazes me that God uses it as greatly as He does, but God does use it, and He does love and have relationships with many people in the IC--yes, even leaders.

So . . . detox. I think that in large part my detox would have to consist of learning to value conversation. That probably sounds weird, and it probably emanates as much from my personality as it does from the IC setting, but it's very difficult for me to just sit down and have a conversation. I always feel that I have to be accomplishing something, and if I'm going to have a conversation, I want to talk about some important matter of faith. Yes, that's really what I want to talk about. It's what I'm interested in. You could add in a couple of other topics, such as the technical aspects of clays and glazes (fascinating, I know), medical stuff that most people would find gross (I'm an RN), esoteric facts about linguistics, botany, and assorted other nerdy things . . . see what a fascinating person I am?

So I have a hard time seeing conversation about, say, your six-year-old's latest accomplishments, as a good use of time. If we're talking about his struggles or how to help him learn to read, then I'm all in, but as long as there's no problem, why would I want to talk about it? Let's get something done! I realize this is not a good way to be. You have to take time to sit and talk and really be interested in one another's day to day lives if you're going to build any kind of true community.

I see this as a very IC attitude. Let's get our business taken care of, do what needs to be done, and go home. I got really tired of having to do it all myself, too, but someone had to do it. Maybe that's another thing I should leave behind--the idea that just because a thing should (in my estimation) be done, and nobody else is willing to do it, therefore I should do it. (beeeeeep . . . wrong). All I'm supposed to do is whatever God tells me to do. And it's okay to sit down with you, have a cup of tea, and accomplish nothing. Let me see if I can drum this into my head. ;)

God bless, Cindy

Permalink Reply by Katie Mather on December 7, 2008 at 7:09am

Hey Nik, that is exactly what detoxing is. It is greiving, and with some, the pain is excruciating. I can see it all over this site and in many of the discussions. I started this discussion to help people face that they are greiving. But I think that many are stuck in the denial of grieving and they don't even know that they are stuck.

I think that during this time of year, there are many who look back at the IC with fondness of Christmas memories and feel conflicting emotions. And yet I have to reconsider even my own Christmas "traditions." Are they really necessary? That is how I detoxed from institutionalism. It was a peeling away of the superfluous and unnecesary traditions of men. But many of those traditions are steeped in emotional manipulation and condemnation, like the command not to forsake the assembling together. This and so many others have come to new meaning. We do "assemble" or come together and probably more that those who are in IC.

Another area is music. I've known many in SC who sneak back into IC because they "need" the contemporary worship music. Being a vocalist and musician, I understand that. It seems to be the only place to "perform" your musical giftings. But is it really necessary for healthy growth and maturity? I have to look at Christians in the NT and down through the ages and see that there were mature Christians who did not have this or that and therefore it is not necessary for spiritual growth and maturity. The key word is necessary. What did we think was necessary for healthy spiritual growth and maturity but is actually something that has been added?

The perception of what is necessary has changed. Certainly the programs are nice. The music is nice. The anononymity is nice. Being able to just sit back and watch others perform worship is nice. But these are all not necessary. As a matter of fact, they hinder the maturation process. So detox is a revelation of a change in the meaning of things in the IC. Perhaps that is why Tim said, do the opposite of what you did in the IC. For us coming from former clergy, we have had to do nothing. We recognized that we are looked upon as the one who will minister, worship, teach, pray, etc, etc... And we have had to resist doing it all. We can do it all and are good at doing it all. In the first home groups we started from breaking up our IC, we couldn't even attend them. People would fall back into the old pattern and would just sit around waiting for us to do the talking, teaching, sharing... Our very presence would hinder other's participation. On very few occasions we have been invited to a group where we are unknown and were able to watch others do it. But now since we are among those who also see us as just seekers of The Christ and followers of Jesus, just like them, we are able to just be. We add our flavor to the koinonia pot with everyone else and we all are nourished together.

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