English Bibles

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ryan Spear on December 13, 2010 at 7:57pm

It's understood that things are lost in any translation which is why I think Greek and Hebrew are required for pastors in seminary. When people take the time to read the whole bible and not just stick to certain books or the New Testiment, built in translator biases tend to work themselves out. The bible is just too massive for any bias translator to cover all bases. No one has to know Greek or Hebrew to find truth. 

 

I would encourage people to read it all and read all over. There are interesting things in books like Leviticus, Number, Chronicles and the minor prophets. I concider Deuteronomy just as essential reading in the Old Testiment as John in the New.

 

I always liked the thing about people who can spot conterfiet money. Those people don't sit around studying counterfiet money. They study the real thing and know it so well that no conterfiet can get past them.

 

I did a study once upon a time and wrote out all the verses that said Jesus died for 'all' and all the verses that said Jesus died for 'many'. It was just about 50/50 of like 20-30 verses. It seemed quite contradicting. In the end I came to the understanding that Jesus died for 'all' of the 'many' so it wasn't contradicting at all.

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Permalink Reply by Jim London on December 13, 2010 at 9:50pm

 Ryan, you say, "I consider Deuteronomy just as essential reading in the Old Testiment as John in the New." Perhaps you are already aware of the literary structure of Deut (a wonderful book!), but if not, being aware that it is based on an ancient treaty format between a sovereign king and his subject people does help in appreciating how it all holds together. The chief parts are:

1) a rationale for the treaty and why the king can legitimately expect that the terms will be upheld (chapters 1-5:5)

2) the primary statements of the treaty (5:6-21) "the ten words"

3) the specifics that flesh out the expectations of the ten words, delineated as examples that carry the spirit of the words, presented in sections following the order of each of the ten words (5:22- ch 26)

4) declaration of the consequences of violating the covenant and the blessings of living by the covenant (chs 27-28)

Before I began exploring the literary structure of books of the Bible a couple of decades ago, I had trouble discovering how things held together. It's been helpful to be able to recognise relationship among parts as one way of discerning context. I'm just connecting to your idea of trying to pay attention to the larger picture when reading scripture, rather than pinning "truth" on selected texts.

Ryan Spear said:

It's understood that things are lost in any translation which is why I think Greek and Hebrew are required for pastors in seminary. When people take the time to read the whole bible and not just stick to certain books or the New Testiment, built in translator biases tend to work themselves out. The bible is just too massive for any bias translator to cover all bases. No one has to know Greek or Hebrew to find truth. 

 

I would encourage people to read it all and read all over. There are interesting things in books like Leviticus, Number, Chronicles and the minor prophets. I concider Deuteronomy just as essential reading in the Old Testiment as John in the New.

 

I always liked the thing about people who can spot conterfiet money. Those people don't sit around studying counterfiet money. They study the real thing and know it so well that no conterfiet can get past them.

 

I did a study once upon a time and wrote out all the verses that said Jesus died for 'all' and all the verses that said Jesus died for 'many'. It was just about 50/50 of like 20-30 verses. It seemed quite contradicting. In the end I came to the understanding that Jesus died for 'all' of the 'many' so it wasn't contradicting at all.

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Permalink Reply by Paul Byerly on December 14, 2010 at 2:20pm

Ryan,

 

I don't disagree with anything you have said, yet I still agree with what Dennis said.

 

You are absolutely correct that we need to know the whole Bible. This is the only way to fit a verse in with what my bride called the tenor of Scripture.

 

Blessings,

Paul

 

Ryan Spear said:

It's understood that things are lost in any translation which is why I think Greek and Hebrew are required for pastors in seminary. When people take the time to read the whole bible and not just stick to certain books or the New Testiment, built in translator biases tend to work themselves out. The bible is just too massive for any bias translator to cover all bases. No one has to know Greek or Hebrew to find truth. 

 

I would encourage people to read it all and read all over. There are interesting things in books like Leviticus, Number, Chronicles and the minor prophets. I concider Deuteronomy just as essential reading in the Old Testiment as John in the New.

 

I always liked the thing about people who can spot conterfiet money. Those people don't sit around studying counterfiet money. They study the real thing and know it so well that no conterfiet can get past them.

 

I did a study once upon a time and wrote out all the verses that said Jesus died for 'all' and all the verses that said Jesus died for 'many'. It was just about 50/50 of like 20-30 verses. It seemed quite contradicting. In the end I came to the understanding that Jesus died for 'all' of the 'many' so it wasn't contradicting at all.

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Permalink Reply by Bill Wood on December 14, 2010 at 3:35pm

greetings saints,

 

Ryan mentioned the book of Deuteronomy which sparked a very vivid memory of an Emmaus Rd. burning heart encounter with our Master that I had on the evening of Jan. 16, 2004.

 

I had just checked into my motel room at the Microtel Inn in Clarksville, Tenn..  While reclining on the edge of my bed I opened up the top drawer of the nightstand and pulled out the Gideon's Bible and opened it up to somewhere in Deuteronomy.  It was then and there that our gracious Lord opened up the Scriptures so as to see HIM right there in those words, which released very deep and joyful laughter from my inner-most being, this laughter being high praise to Him that so generously revealed Himself to me.

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Permalink Reply by Jim London on December 14, 2010 at 4:26pm

Bill, isn't that such an exciting, spirit enlivening experience! Thank you for sharing it. Our stories are one of God's languages to His people.

Bill Wood said:

greetings saints,

 

Ryan mentioned the book of Deuteronomy which sparked a very vivid memory of an Emmaus Rd. burning heart encounter with our Master that I had on the evening of Jan. 16, 2004.

 

I had just checked into my motel room at the Microtel Inn in Clarksville, Tenn..  While reclining on the edge of my bed I opened up the top drawer of the nightstand and pulled out the Gideon's Bible and opened it up to somewhere in Deuteronomy.  It was then and there that our gracious Lord opened up the Scriptures so as to see HIM right there in those words, which released very deep and joyful laughter from my inner-most being, this laughter being high praise to Him that so generously revealed Himself to me.

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Permalink Reply by Sean Steckbeck on December 14, 2010 at 10:25pm

Thanks for Sharing! What an incredible story!

Bill Wood said:

greetings saints,

 

Ryan mentioned the book of Deuteronomy which sparked a very vivid memory of an Emmaus Rd. burning heart encounter with our Master that I had on the evening of Jan. 16, 2004.

 

I had just checked into my motel room at the Microtel Inn in Clarksville, Tenn..  While reclining on the edge of my bed I opened up the top drawer of the nightstand and pulled out the Gideon's Bible and opened it up to somewhere in Deuteronomy.  It was then and there that our gracious Lord opened up the Scriptures so as to see HIM right there in those words, which released very deep and joyful laughter from my inner-most being, this laughter being high praise to Him that so generously revealed Himself to me

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Permalink Reply by Eleutheros on January 1, 2011 at 11:00am

For whatever value my experiences may be worth to this discussion, I would like to emphasize, Ryan, that I did not start my journey by distrusting our English translations… that came later. I started my journey, many, many years ago, by asking questions of what I was taught from these translations and then not giving up until I found answers.

  

Many consider this to be a noble thing to do.

 

And I would add, to emphasize the point that Paul was making, that those answers came to me exactly because I have the Spirit of Jesus inside of me.

 

Therefore, it was quite rude of you to suggest that I am on the side of The Adversary, Satan.

 

I could guess that you carefully searched my letter for something, anything, to pin on me and then, thinking that you found it, you typed out your rude comment to see if you could incite me because you likely hold as truth that questioning our English translation of those Holy Words is a... what? Heretical thing to do?

 

But, I won't guess at your motives because, believe it or not, I truly understand why you and many others would feel offended by my comments. And I will add that if I were a different person than who I am for having the Sprit of Jesus inside of me, it is likely that I would have been incensed by your reply.

Instead, I understand it because that is not me. At least not the me that I am now because of Jesus.

 

I am different, Ryan, because of Him. Better, because of Him. Further, I anticipate that I will continue to learn the lessons of agape for as long as I live, and beyond, exactly because of Him.

 

Paul, that most excellent Apostle, once wrote that the kingdom of God is... righteousness, peace and joy in Holy Spirit.

 

Ryan, I discern that I live righteously, know peace and experience joy because of Him. Therefore, I know that I am in the kingdom of God.

 

And that is what I perceive Jesus is all about, getting human beings into the kingdom of our God by releasing them from Sin and imparting into them the Spirit of Agape, fondness and affection so that these re-sired humans will become the Children of God! And as we know from John, the much loved disciple, agape is what Jehovah is!

 

So, the answers to the logical questions aroused in me because of our English translation came later, much later. And as these answers came to me, over the years, they were really not much more than a confirmation of what I had already come to know as Truth, exactly because of the Spirit of Jesus that has made a home inside of me, where Jesus said the kingdom of God is.

 

Ryan, my brother, I would encourage you, also, to ask questions of the things you are taught. Because, despite the rudeness of your comment, I'm quite sure you also have the Spirit of Jesus making a home inside of you. And questions, my friend, are a great starting place for that Spirit to reveal to you what He is, Truth.

 

Be good, Ryan, It is, after all, what you were created to be!

 

Dennis!

 

P.S. Thank you, Paul, for addressing this comment and thus opening a door so that I could reply to Ryan. I refrained earlier out of respect for Tony's decision.

 

 

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Paul Byerly on January 1, 2011 at 1:43pm

Jesus spoke in parables, and did so for a reason - so that only those who knew him would understand the deep truth of what He was saying. Why would we expect the Bible to be any different? Those who do not know Him can't possibly understand the deep truth of the Bible, no matter how often they read it. Even if someone could be fluent in 1st century Greek, without the Sprint of God to speak to them, the Bible would be impossible to understand.

 

I wonder if we have crippled ourselves by relying too much on our minds, and not enough on the Spirit of God? he written word, reduced to it's components, can never speak the truth of God. Have we lost the truth in our pursuit of the truth?

 

Imagine taking all the music scores for a beautiful orchestral piece and analyzing them in detail. Find where parts are repeated, and where they are repeated with some variations. Look at how the music for one instrument differed from that for another. Research all the instruments, how they are made, how temperature changes their sound, and so on. Look at how the score compares with other scores written at the same time. Go on and on, deeper and deeper into the mechanics of the music, and then declare that you understand the music. Only one problem - you have never heard it played! Or maybe you have heard it played on one instrument - a nice but incomplete echo of what was intended.

 

The Holy Spirit is the conductor, the one who brings it all together. Only those who listen to the music as conducted by the HS have heard what the composer intended.  The conductor puts his stamp on the music - if another conductor lead the orchestra the piece would sound different. Since the HS and the composer are the same entity, the HS and the HS alone knows how the music is to sound.

 

As a "score" the Bible is imperfect. To deny this is, in my mind, to look at the facts and pretend they don't exist. The existence of varying versions is all the proof we need that there are minor problems - occasional wrong notes if you will. If we try to understand the score without the HS, we are lost. Even if we manage to get all the parts to play together, we will not hear what the composer intended.  HOWEVER, if we allow the HS to lead the orchestra, if we allow Him to help us hear what God intended us to hear from the Bible, then, and ONLY THEN can we know truth.

 

So, who's "side" am I on in this debate?

 

I perhaps disagree with Ryan in that I think we do well to understand the imperfections we are dealing with. These imperfections make legalistic interpretation clearly wrong. The imperfections also show us that we need the Holy Spirit. NO matter how wise a man is, no matter how much Greek he knows, he can't understand the Bible without the HS.

I perhaps also disagree with Dennis in that I do not think the imperfections mean the Word of God is imperfect. If we read it with the HS, it is fully able to give us the truth.

 

I realise that what I am saying is uncomfortable. It makes the truth seem subjective. We all want a law book, an ironclad list of right, wrong, and facts. I think we humans, by nature, tend towards legalism, and legalism requires an absolute document that can be offered as the way to live, down to the smallest details. But this is NOT how Jesus lived (which is why the Pharisees hated Him so much) and we are to live as He lived.

 

Ultimately we need the Holy Spirit, and others who follow Jesus to find the truth and will of God. Sadly many have pushed the HS into a corner, thinking they can get more out of the Bible by their detailed study. (BTW, I am in no way against detailed study - do it myself). We have also lost the fierce but loving debate that is necessary to the process of finding the truth.

 

Paul

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Permalink Reply by Ryan Spear on January 3, 2011 at 7:05am

When someone places doubts in peoples heads about the only last reliable source of truth, the bible, namely the only one they can read, then where is one to find truth? I go to the bible because all human beings are bias including me. If the bible is so bias then I have no sourse of truth. What I think the truth is, just might not be truth because it just might be someones translated bias I'm believing. There is no more point in reading the bible. There is no point in going to church because they preach out of that bias book.

 

If a person can destroy peoples trust in the bible, they destroy thier trust in the church and other Christians. No one can say, "The bible says." when you don't trust what the bible says so then truth ends up what ever anyone thinks it is because there is no more foundation for truth. All foundation of truth is destroyed if satan can successufully destroy peoples trust in God's word. With nothing to stand on, people will fall for anything. Maybe that's the whole point about destroying peoples trust in the bible they read.

 

Ryan

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Permalink Reply by Jim London on January 3, 2011 at 10:04am

Ryan, is it possible to acknowledge that, in the translation process, there is not always an exact way of expressing in language B what is said in language A, but still not despair about a fine shade of meaning of some expressions that may not be translatable? It's not an effort to undermine faith or cast doubt on a text when we acknowledge the truth that translation cannot be "accurate" in a scientific way of measuring accuracy, is it? (Is "science" even accurate in an absolute way?) 

I have one friend and ancient languages expert who was involved in the first NIV translation of Deuteronomy, in a team of about 15 or so global scholars. They were very anxious to "get everything right", and confered with one another over lengthy periods about the slightest ambiguity in jots and tittles. Ultimately, they did their collective best, using all the best principles of translation that were among them. But they had isolated spots, usually related to single words that in original language allowed for some lattitude in shade of meaning, that not everyone on the team could be certain about. That's the reality of translation.

Another issue with translation that we must accept is that our language (English, for us) changes over time, and in a space of time (between KJ of 1611, and NASB or NIV, for example), an English word in 1611 has changed in its meaning or gone out of ussage altogether. Many hundreds of KJ words are totally obsolete now and actually deliver the wrong idea when compared to the original language. In other words, the English of KJ does not now mean what it says! KJ has to be translated into our current English language. I'm not just talking about poetic style to prosaic style; I'm refering to meanings of words and idioms. There is a much greater discrepancy between KJ and the original intent of the original language of OT and NT texts as time passes, because the English language changes! Every era of language users needs to update its translation by going back to the original and saying, "what does this mean, and how are we going to deliver it in today's use of our language?" Surely it can't be devilish to draw attention to this reality about translation. Isn't it actually helpful for truth-seekers to be aware of these issues? I'm personally grateful for those who have the expertise to follow language developments and can keep our translations current. It's a great service to us, and dramatically reduces the quandry about whether what we're reading carries what was intended by original authors.

I have had the opportunity for all of my adult years to be close to several people whose entire lives have been devoted to anxient language studies, able to read original biblical texts as easily as you and I read English -- in fact, a few of them carry those orignial language texts with them when they gather with others for Bible study! But my confidence in the English texts is constantly affirmed by their comfort with my NASB or NIV. No problematic discrepancies in their mind! Although they can offer wider shades of meaning that results in wonderful explosions of contextual understanding.

Here's the bottom line for me: Just as there was a need for scholarship/ translation in NT times for OT texts, we don't find anxiety in the NT writings about whether they were properly understanding ancient OT texts. In fact, we very much trust the way they interpreted the texts of what we have come to call the OT era. To me, more than absolute exactness of translation (an illusion, anyway?), I have absolutely full trust in the mediating and illuminating ministry of the Holy Spirit to deliver His intention to us. He is the same Spirit who inspired the texting of everything we have of "original" texts. He is not tripped up by a slight dislocation of translation of  a handful of words scattered over 1000 pages. If my hand shakes or wavers in drawing a house on paper, you will still discern the house with ease -- in all the detail that I sketch it. You might even build your house based on my drawings!

Ryan Spear said:

When someone places doubts in peoples heads about the only last reliable source of truth, the bible, namely the only one they can read, then where is one to find truth? I go to the bible because all human beings are bias including me. If the bible is so bias then I have no sourse of truth. What I think the truth is, just might not be truth because it just might be someones translated bias I'm believing. There is no more point in reading the bible. There is no point in going to church because they preach out of that bias book.

 

If a person can destroy peoples trust in the bible, they destroy thier trust in the church and other Christians. No one can say, "The bible says." when you don't trust what the bible says so then truth ends up what ever anyone thinks it is because there is no more foundation for truth. All foundation of truth is destroyed if satan can successufully destroy peoples trust in God's word. With nothing to stand on, people will fall for anything. Maybe that's the whole point about destroying peoples trust in the bible they read.

 

Ryan

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Permalink Reply by Paul Byerly on January 3, 2011 at 1:10pm

Ryan,

 

If this is in reply to what I wrote, I would ask if you really read what I wrote. I am in now way trying to put doubt in the minds of any. I am trying to answer the doubt that must be there if one thinks the Bible, as a book, apart from the Holy Spirit, has all that we need.

Ryan Spear said:

When someone places doubts in peoples heads about the only last reliable source of truth, the bible, namely the only one they can read, then where is one to find truth? I go to the bible because all human beings are bias including me. If the bible is so bias then I have no sourse of truth. What I think the truth is, just might not be truth because it just might be someones translated bias I'm believing. There is no more point in reading the bible. There is no point in going to church because they preach out of that bias book.

 

If a person can destroy peoples trust in the bible, they destroy thier trust in the church and other Christians. No one can say, "The bible says." when you don't trust what the bible says so then truth ends up what ever anyone thinks it is because there is no more foundation for truth. All foundation of truth is destroyed if satan can successufully destroy peoples trust in God's word. With nothing to stand on, people will fall for anything. Maybe that's the whole point about destroying peoples trust in the bible they read.

 

Ryan

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Permalink Reply by Eleutheros on January 4, 2011 at 2:54pm

Hey!

I understand your reply to be saying that it is possible to destroy people’s trust in God by first destroying their trust in the Bible. And that this is possible because the translation of the Bible that they can read is the last reliable source of truth.

If this is an accurate summation, then I can understand why you would, at the very least, come to consider that I am a dupe of The Adversary: A useful idiot being used by him to destroy others trust and that because I appear to be putting doubt in other Christian’s minds of the truth in a theology that is derived from the easily questionable English translations of a handful of theologically key words and phrases in the original texts.

I understand this, Ryan. I once felt as you do about our English Bible. And, of course, that was because I was taught, as truth, that the translation called the King James Version was a thoroughly accurate and unassailable translation all of those original words. And so, I perceive that a lot of Christians have come to feel this way about their English Bibles. Still, though, from the perspective I now have, it’s almost as if this English Bible has come to replace, in many Christians, the original and admittedly esoteric operation of the Spirit of Jesus as the source of truth.

And that, if I may speak for him in this only, is the point both Paul and I want to convey: It is the Spirit of Jesus that brings a truthful understanding to those holy words; for it is even as Paul, the apostle said, we have the mind of Christ because we have His Spirit and that Spirit reveals to us the deep things of God. (1Cor. 2:6-16).

And I would add to that concept, from some words of Jesus', the idea that this Holy Spirit, because it is also the Spirit of agape, will only, ever, bring to anyone just the understanding they can handle!

As his crucifixion was approaching, Jesus, after three years of teaching and training, once said this to His disciples, “Still much have I to say to you, but you are not able to bear it at present." John 16:12 CLV

 

But, the time eventually came when they could ‘bear it’!  Consider Peter’s vision that started the inclusion of the Gentiles into the Kingdom of God. Do you understand how shocking a thing this inclusion was to the Jewish mindset? For they were raised to be very exclusive in their thinking!

 

And this ability to grasp and appreciate ‘radical’ things like this came because of what Jesus said right after He finished telling them that they couldn’t accept, right now, all the things of truth that He wanted to speak to them:

 

“Yet whenever that may be coming - the spirit of truth -it will be guiding you into all the truth, for it will not be speaking from itself, but whatsoever it should be hearing will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you. That will be glorifying Me, seeing that of Mine will it be getting, and informing you." John 16:13-14 CLV

 

Ryan, it is not wrong to question any translation of the Bible, should one become so inclined, for that is not the same as questioning the original words. And that is because those words, well preserved for us by Jehovah, are the standard; argue as we will over the finite possibilities for translation.

Still, though, the understanding behind those words comes from Jehovah, alone, Who imparts to those who are His, regardless of theology, The Big Picture. And I perceive that this Big Picture is of agape; what it looks like, what it feels like, how it behaves and most of all how it changes us for the better, making us human beings fit for the kingdom of God.

 

As Paul wrote of agape:

 

“If I should be speaking in the languages of men and of the messengers, yet should have no agape, I have become resounding copper or a clanging cymbal.

And if I should have prophecy and should be perceiving all secrets and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so as to transport mountains, yet have no agape, I am nothing."

And if ever I should be morselling out all my possessions, and if I should be giving up my body, that I should be boasting, yet may have no agape, in nothing do I benefit.

Agape is patient, is kind. Agape is not jealous. Agape is not bragging, is not puffed up, is not indecent, is not self-seeking, is not incensed, is not taking account of evil, is not rejoicing in injustice, yet is rejoicing together with the truth, is forgoing all, is believing all, is expecting all, is enduring all."

Agape is never lapsing: yet, whether prophecies, they will be discarded, or languages, they will cease, or knowledge, it will be discarded." I Cor.13:1-8 CLV

 

These are the very things that I perceive are now in me for my allowing myself to be led by God’s Spirit. And I hope that they are the very same things that you perceive are in you exactly because you, Ryan, have the Spirit of Jesus making a home for Itself inside of you. (Rom 8:8-11, I Cor. 3:16.)

 

Ryan, there is a lot more I could say, but, really, what good would it do?  My letter only resulted in a shutdown of all dialogue that might have been useful on this matter of Universalism. So be it. I understand Tony and Felicity’s decision.

 

However, the Spirit of Jesus is alive and well. With the result being that there are lots of Christians out there, like me, who are asking thoughtful and often hard questions of that ‘correct’ theology that is derived from our English Bibles. And trust me on this, they’re not getting satisfying answers for their asking ‘the authorities’, but are, instead, being censured. However, like me, for their having the Spirit of Truth inside of them, which is also the Spirit of agape, they will, if they truly want it, eventually find satisfying answers to their questions. And that is because I know that, just like me, all, every last one of all of my brothers and sisters will continue to learn the lessons of agape that their Father is teaching them, regardless of and often times in spite of, their theologies.

 

Really, that’s all I have to say on this. If you wish, the last word can be your’s.

 

Be good, Ryan!

 

Dennis!

Ryan Spear said:

When someone places doubts in peoples heads about the only last reliable source of truth, the bible, namely the only one they can read, then where is one to find truth? I go to the bible because all human beings are bias including me. If the bible is so bias then I have no sourse of truth. What I think the truth is, just might not be truth because it just might be someones translated bias I'm believing. There is no more point in reading the bible. There is no point in going to church because they preach out of that bias book.

 

If a person can destroy peoples trust in the bible, they destroy thier trust in the church and other Christians. No one can say, "The bible says." when you don't trust what the bible says so then truth ends up what ever anyone thinks it is because there is no more foundation for truth. All foundation of truth is destroyed if satan can successufully destroy peoples trust in God's word. With nothing to stand on, people will fall for anything. Maybe that's the whole point about destroying peoples trust in the bible they read.

 

Ryan

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