How Excess Can Destroy Moves of God!
I have said this before, and I will say it again.
When seeing things like Universal Salvation and all strange doctrines being allowed a place of teaching that is not typical to a "seeker" discussion, I am not worried about this forum in general, but about the plight of the simple church movement, a true move of God!
I've seen unbalanced excesses destroy moves of God over and over again as a student of church history and revival history, particurarly in the charismatic movement. These were genuine moves of God, excesses (leaven) was allowed in, it was not dealt with, and in the end it stopped the move of God.
Letsjust give example with this century:
1.) Pentecostal MOvement- not many know this, but it was the excess of the Oneness doctrine that ended what began at Azusa Street. Frank Bartleman can be seen as a reference here. There were mini-movements as well like John Alexander Dowie's fall with his belief he was Elijah and others. This was a genuine move of God where God was restoring the fresh wind of His Spirit as a normal everyday part of His church.
2.) Healing Revivals- Great move of God where God was restoring the basics of helaing to the church, thousands were healed, the excess was the worship of man who thought themselves invincible, and fell. Many strange doctrines entered in this phase that we haven't been able to shake until this day. Including the seed-serpent doctrine, the latter rain doctrines, and others... to the destruction of the "healing revival" and its leaven until this day.
3.) The Charismatic Movement- God was breathing His Spirit on denominational churches. This brought wonderful refreshing to the church at large, but as someone said, "it was ten miles wide, but two inches deep." The good news is great deception didn't happen here for the most part, but also there was no foundational disipleship which brought lack of balance and eventually caused the fire of the movement to die. There was no multiplication and no apostolic vision. It eventually created little "bless me clubs".
4.) The Jesus Movement- A wonderful mighty move of God, one of a kind! Hundreds of thousands of youth swept into the kingdom without religion. Two excesses destroyed this movement, being too loose without any leadership/servant elders, and afterwards the excess of hierarchy and shepherding to correct this problem. This movement ended sadly, it was one of the most amazing moves of God.
5.) The Word of Faith Movement/ Teaching Movement- Restored the truths of who we are in Messiah, standing on the promises of God, faith, prosperity, spiritual authority, the power of the Word of God, and personal healing. This movement allowed excesses in like hyper-prosperity, excessive lifestyles, hyper-faith, stretching the Word of God, we are "little gods", hyper- positive confession (these people get on my nerves to be honest), and created "yes men" conferencing clubs. The downfall of this movement came with all the men of this movement who fell into legal problems, marital failures, and other such stuff. To his credit, Hagin saw this coming, and wrote "The Midas Touch" to confront one of these excesses. It was after this that Benny Hinn repented and others. The downfall of this movement could have been much harder if it wasn't for the wisdom of Hagin.
6.) Third Wave Movement- John Wimber and the Vineyard came as a branch out of the Jesus Movement, I believe the pure stream of balance of the Jesus Movement moved onto Wimber. The Vineyard really brought forth truths such as the priesthood of every believer, church not being religious, the gifts of the Spirit in your everyday life, incredible worship music, and being supernatural without being weird. The downfall of this movement came because of the excess of NO DISCERNMENT in who they allowed to influence them. THey let Peter Wagner's hierarchy influence them. They let the false prophet Bob Jones influence them (because of a word Bob gave about WImber's son). This eventually led to the downfall of the Vineyard into a powerless "seeker" movement after the fall of Bob Jones at a Vineyard church where he was caught prophesying over women and having them strip naked. We will return to Bob JOnes in a later movement!
7.) The Toronto/Renewal/River Movement- This was a genuine move of God . I was personally touched by this movement. It restored truths such as the presence of God, power encounters with God, prophetic experiences, the Father heart of God, etc. I believe from the onset this movement had some heavy duty goods (wonderful gifts from God), but as well as some heavy duty excesses that were never taken care of. For starters, from the beginning this movement began to be a "pilgrimage movement" rather than an apostolic sending movement, something very unhealthy. I am guilty of this myself and have repented since. Second of all, there was too little concentration on the results of the power of God in a person's everyday life, and too big of a concentration on manifestations. The weirdest part of this movement is manifestations started taking on names, patterns, and repetition. Whether it was being slain in the Spirit, holy laughter, HOOing, WHOAing, birthing, shaking, squatting, roaring,being drunk, and others. These same extra-biblical manifestations were seen night after night as if it was expected. God can touch people, and people do manifest it in different ways sometimes including the above mentioned. However, I don't see it as a stuck pattern in the NT. I don't see Yeshua or his disciples going around praying for the sick and "HOOing" all the time. I don't see recorded where the Apostle Paul would shake his head violently as he was preaching. I'm not saying that these things don't happen when the Holy Spirit moves, but they are not a regular pattern. I can see where people were slain in the Spirit in the NT (the guards of Yeshua), but I can't see where the majority of people Yeshua prayed for were slain in the Spirit as a "renewal" pattern on a regular basis. I see where the apostles were "drunk in the Spirit" on Pentecost, but for the rest of their ministry tenure in Acts, they were completely sober and sound minded. Lately when praying for the sick among these type of Christians, I purposefully hold them up and refuse that they fall. I want to see a healing, not a fall! This pattern-like repititous expectation for manifestations was an excess IMHO. Manifestations themself are not excesses, but the expectation and the repetition is. Most of it is flesh imitating the Spirit to uphold the tradition of repetitious manifestations. I believe this does considerable damage to the body of Messiah. While we shouldn't care if the Spirit makes us look silly, we should care if the flesh does. We should ask for love to cover these things, however, we should confront them as well.
5.) The Brownsville Revival- a true move of God and descendant of "renewal", I was there two years and graduated BRSM. Repentance and travail were its strong points. The power of God was there, and salvations were plentiful. However, the biggest excess that caused its downfall (from eye-witness experience) was elitism largely sparked by a David Yonngi CHo prophecy about them being the last revival on the earth. The school split because of elitism too!
6.) The Prophetic MOvement- a great movement which encouraged all believers to prophesy, however, they fell into the excess of hierarchy, personality worship, and weird prophetic techniques that borders on the New Age (like visualization, etc.).
7) Lakeland Revival- I believe this was a mixture from the start. You had a man who had morality problems and an affair two years prior that was never dealt with properly. During this same time he had tatoos and other rebellious characteristics. He never went through discipleship. He had a mix between the real Spirit of God, a spirit of rebellion, and some familiar spirits. His spiritual father from the beginning was Bob Jones, probably the most blatant false prophet in the prophetic movement who had manipulated women with the prophetic to strip in the past. He teaches visualization techniques. You had gross false doctrine such as an overconcentration on angels. In the end, Bentley left his wife, and is now living with his new mistress (as per the announcement a week ago) and refuses to repent or to listen. Remember, this is his second affair, this was not dealt with properly two years ago. The Lakeland revival was lit and fell just as a quick meaningless firework.
It was a "quick ride" for those from the renewal movement who missed Toronto-Brownsville.
8.) The Simple Church Movement- a true move of God and the one I am presently in.
The list of strengths can take up books.
However, if they do not recognize the need for elders to confront false doctrine, specifically but not only Universal Salvation, I would hate to see it join the other lists!
When seeing things like Universal Salvation and all strange doctrines being allowed a place of teaching that is not typical to a "seeker" discussion, I am not worried about this forum in general, but about the plight of the simple church movement, a true move of God!
I've seen unbalanced excesses destroy moves of God over and over again as a student of church history and revival history, particurarly in the charismatic movement. These were genuine moves of God, excesses (leaven) was allowed in, it was not dealt with, and in the end it stopped the move of God.
Letsjust give example with this century:
1.) Pentecostal MOvement- not many know this, but it was the excess of the Oneness doctrine that ended what began at Azusa Street. Frank Bartleman can be seen as a reference here. There were mini-movements as well like John Alexander Dowie's fall with his belief he was Elijah and others. This was a genuine move of God where God was restoring the fresh wind of His Spirit as a normal everyday part of His church.
2.) Healing Revivals- Great move of God where God was restoring the basics of helaing to the church, thousands were healed, the excess was the worship of man who thought themselves invincible, and fell. Many strange doctrines entered in this phase that we haven't been able to shake until this day. Including the seed-serpent doctrine, the latter rain doctrines, and others... to the destruction of the "healing revival" and its leaven until this day.
3.) The Charismatic Movement- God was breathing His Spirit on denominational churches. This brought wonderful refreshing to the church at large, but as someone said, "it was ten miles wide, but two inches deep." The good news is great deception didn't happen here for the most part, but also there was no foundational disipleship which brought lack of balance and eventually caused the fire of the movement to die. There was no multiplication and no apostolic vision. It eventually created little "bless me clubs".
4.) The Jesus Movement- A wonderful mighty move of God, one of a kind! Hundreds of thousands of youth swept into the kingdom without religion. Two excesses destroyed this movement, being too loose without any leadership/servant elders, and afterwards the excess of hierarchy and shepherding to correct this problem. This movement ended sadly, it was one of the most amazing moves of God.
5.) The Word of Faith Movement/ Teaching Movement- Restored the truths of who we are in Messiah, standing on the promises of God, faith, prosperity, spiritual authority, the power of the Word of God, and personal healing. This movement allowed excesses in like hyper-prosperity, excessive lifestyles, hyper-faith, stretching the Word of God, we are "little gods", hyper- positive confession (these people get on my nerves to be honest), and created "yes men" conferencing clubs. The downfall of this movement came with all the men of this movement who fell into legal problems, marital failures, and other such stuff. To his credit, Hagin saw this coming, and wrote "The Midas Touch" to confront one of these excesses. It was after this that Benny Hinn repented and others. The downfall of this movement could have been much harder if it wasn't for the wisdom of Hagin.
6.) Third Wave Movement- John Wimber and the Vineyard came as a branch out of the Jesus Movement, I believe the pure stream of balance of the Jesus Movement moved onto Wimber. The Vineyard really brought forth truths such as the priesthood of every believer, church not being religious, the gifts of the Spirit in your everyday life, incredible worship music, and being supernatural without being weird. The downfall of this movement came because of the excess of NO DISCERNMENT in who they allowed to influence them. THey let Peter Wagner's hierarchy influence them. They let the false prophet Bob Jones influence them (because of a word Bob gave about WImber's son). This eventually led to the downfall of the Vineyard into a powerless "seeker" movement after the fall of Bob Jones at a Vineyard church where he was caught prophesying over women and having them strip naked. We will return to Bob JOnes in a later movement!
7.) The Toronto/Renewal/River Movement- This was a genuine move of God . I was personally touched by this movement. It restored truths such as the presence of God, power encounters with God, prophetic experiences, the Father heart of God, etc. I believe from the onset this movement had some heavy duty goods (wonderful gifts from God), but as well as some heavy duty excesses that were never taken care of. For starters, from the beginning this movement began to be a "pilgrimage movement" rather than an apostolic sending movement, something very unhealthy. I am guilty of this myself and have repented since. Second of all, there was too little concentration on the results of the power of God in a person's everyday life, and too big of a concentration on manifestations. The weirdest part of this movement is manifestations started taking on names, patterns, and repetition. Whether it was being slain in the Spirit, holy laughter, HOOing, WHOAing, birthing, shaking, squatting, roaring,being drunk, and others. These same extra-biblical manifestations were seen night after night as if it was expected. God can touch people, and people do manifest it in different ways sometimes including the above mentioned. However, I don't see it as a stuck pattern in the NT. I don't see Yeshua or his disciples going around praying for the sick and "HOOing" all the time. I don't see recorded where the Apostle Paul would shake his head violently as he was preaching. I'm not saying that these things don't happen when the Holy Spirit moves, but they are not a regular pattern. I can see where people were slain in the Spirit in the NT (the guards of Yeshua), but I can't see where the majority of people Yeshua prayed for were slain in the Spirit as a "renewal" pattern on a regular basis. I see where the apostles were "drunk in the Spirit" on Pentecost, but for the rest of their ministry tenure in Acts, they were completely sober and sound minded. Lately when praying for the sick among these type of Christians, I purposefully hold them up and refuse that they fall. I want to see a healing, not a fall! This pattern-like repititous expectation for manifestations was an excess IMHO. Manifestations themself are not excesses, but the expectation and the repetition is. Most of it is flesh imitating the Spirit to uphold the tradition of repetitious manifestations. I believe this does considerable damage to the body of Messiah. While we shouldn't care if the Spirit makes us look silly, we should care if the flesh does. We should ask for love to cover these things, however, we should confront them as well.
5.) The Brownsville Revival- a true move of God and descendant of "renewal", I was there two years and graduated BRSM. Repentance and travail were its strong points. The power of God was there, and salvations were plentiful. However, the biggest excess that caused its downfall (from eye-witness experience) was elitism largely sparked by a David Yonngi CHo prophecy about them being the last revival on the earth. The school split because of elitism too!
6.) The Prophetic MOvement- a great movement which encouraged all believers to prophesy, however, they fell into the excess of hierarchy, personality worship, and weird prophetic techniques that borders on the New Age (like visualization, etc.).
7) Lakeland Revival- I believe this was a mixture from the start. You had a man who had morality problems and an affair two years prior that was never dealt with properly. During this same time he had tatoos and other rebellious characteristics. He never went through discipleship. He had a mix between the real Spirit of God, a spirit of rebellion, and some familiar spirits. His spiritual father from the beginning was Bob Jones, probably the most blatant false prophet in the prophetic movement who had manipulated women with the prophetic to strip in the past. He teaches visualization techniques. You had gross false doctrine such as an overconcentration on angels. In the end, Bentley left his wife, and is now living with his new mistress (as per the announcement a week ago) and refuses to repent or to listen. Remember, this is his second affair, this was not dealt with properly two years ago. The Lakeland revival was lit and fell just as a quick meaningless firework.
It was a "quick ride" for those from the renewal movement who missed Toronto-Brownsville.
8.) The Simple Church Movement- a true move of God and the one I am presently in.
The list of strengths can take up books.
However, if they do not recognize the need for elders to confront false doctrine, specifically but not only Universal Salvation, I would hate to see it join the other lists!
Views: 5
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Paige on -
Well this will be my first post here. I've been lurking for a while reading and trying to get a feel for the place. Left IC approx 6, or so years ago. Part of a small fellowship and that's where it stands for now. As for what is shared above:
1. "This was a genuine move of God where God was restoring the fresh wind of His Spirit as a normal everyday part of His church." According to whom?
2. "Great move of God" Same question as above.
3. "God was breathing His Spirit on..." Was He?
4. "A wonderful mighty move of God, one of a kind!" Really?
5. "Restored the truths of ..." Can you guess my question?
I will spare highlighting any more examples from the rest of the list as I hope to have made the point of my opinion known already.
From what I understand of the way you view events; God, The Creator of the whole universe and all it contains, is very incapable of getting anything done since He seems to be thwarted at every turn. I bet if God had had some capable elders on hand in the beginning as He was creating this world, He would never have had to devise a plan to redeem it. Oh wait, I think that plan was devised from its very foundation.
It seems what you are calling for is for the owners of this site to allow certain discussions, and disallow other ones. That is really all that I see that you might possibly be able to accomplish here.
If someone made you an elder, do you really think you could show up at my house, or e-mail me, and demand me to recant of any of my beliefs that you disagree with? Really? Will you be bringing some green wood with you for back-up? I don't believe you, or anyone else on this planet, has that kind of authority over me.
I'm certainly hoping that this post is not an example of what the whole "movement" of simple church is about...
Paige
-
Permalink Reply by Sean Steckbeck on -
Paige,
Its not that God is incapable, its just he has "given gifts to men" as Ephesians 4:11 says.
Elders are one of those gifts, and there is a reason we have them.
Bringing balance and opposing excesses is one of those reasons, keeping the unity of peace in the bond of love is another.
-
Permalink Reply by Linden on -
Thanks Sean,
Thanks for your balanced and wise comments here. I am glad there is actually someone who is not afraid to stand up and speak their mind.
Paige,
The answer to your question is, the people who compose the Body of Christ and discern His spirit moving. Most moves of God are judged by the fruit. By whom? HIS BODY.
As for elders, I think you misunderstand the entire concept of what Sean is saying. NO one is trying to tell anyone what to do, believe etc ect. One of the jobs of an "elder" is to mediate disagreements. When your children have disagreements do you put them in a ring with ball bats and let them beat each other to death? or do you try to mediate?
I think the point that is missed is that those who call themselves "elders" here have not fulfilled their responsibility. That's all.
If you came to my house and started an argument I would try to mediate, not try to tell one that they are more right then the other and not let you (or anyone else) badger others in the group with shouting and many words. That's all
-
Permalink Reply by Paige on
-
"Most moves of God are judged by the fruit. By whom? HIS BODY."
An entire body judged Martin Luther to be a heretic. Others disagreed with that assessment. One may see benefit where another may not, and that is just the reality of life. From our limited perspective, we are incapable of having the final say about any so called "movement."
"If you came to my house and started an argument I would try to mediate, not try to tell one that they are more right then the other and not let you (or anyone else) badger others in the group with shouting and many words. That's all"
Well, that is not my MO. I'm very capable of self government, and very thankful for the freedom in which to practice it. I have no intention of relinquishing that freedom, nor will I ever use force to trample on the freedom of another.
Paige
-
Permalink Reply by Bill Wood on -
howdy saints.
Sean, I'm sure you're of the understanding that the Corinthians and Galatians had major problems in their congregations. Yet Paul did NOT write letters to the elders at Corinth and Galatia, but to the whole congregation. I believe this is quite significant.
Over the years I've come across a couple of saints who said we need elders, and have concluded that they themselves want the *position*. And I've also come to the conclusion that elders are not a title or position. They are just older, more mature saints, who lead by example.
I would make an appeal to you Sean and in fact to everyone(which includes me) here to consider that perhaps their conception of leadership is a little flawed.
Paul said to follow him as he follows Christ. I don't believe he meant to follow him, but to join with him in his zeal and fervor in his pursuit of Jesus.
I believe if we all would press on toward the goal for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ then EVERYTHING will fall into place. We go to Jesus THE Living Stone as living stones, alive unto Him. He places us where He wants and He and the Father will sort out all the issues and establish the leadership of Their choosing.
-
Permalink Reply by Sean Steckbeck on
-
Bill,
One of the qualifications for elders is that they must be "able to teach". There is a reason for this! THey are to keep out wolves and refute bad doctrine.
I once believed like you did when I first left the IC.
This was until I got into the practical side of winning and discipling new believers.
When you have Orthodox Jewish antimissionaries down your throat and spying on your congregation teaching false doctrine to newborn babies, when you have every wind of doctrine that comes down the shoot being thrown around in your 1 Cor 14 meetings (not that this is a bad thing, it just needs the oversight of elders to allow this freedom)...
Your advice is good if you have 20 ten year old believers that are mature sitting in a living room and sipping on coffee to discuss the scriptures freely. However, when you have newborns and the wolves are plentiful, you might reconsider.
I don't need a position of an elder, however, as someone who has recent experience, I was "called on the carpet" fast and had to readjust my position of leadership when suddenly newborns came and we have wolves around us wanting to devour them with false doctrine (from believers of from Orhtodox Jewish unbelievers).
Wolfgang Simson once said that the early house church had "holy bouncers" in his "Houses that Change the World".... I agree with him.
I don't care about a name, a title, or a position.... just about the maturity of the body of Messiah and multiplication.
The opposite, I think people who control or take ownership of the sheep are just as bad.
Elders do not own the sheep, however, they are to provide oversight from wolves and strange doctrines.
I used to appply the whole "elders are just older believers"... I don't buy it anymore and do believe elders should be ordained by the apostolic planter.
This is not theory, its from experience, at least the practical experience I am having now.
I am glad I learned how this looks in a non-hierarchal format both in Luccerne Switzerland (Florian Bartsch's movement) and with my mentor and spiritual father Marco Gmur in St Gallen. Later also in India with Victor Choudhrie. Wolfgang also spent some time with us and confirmed this as well when he was here in Israel with us.
-
Permalink Reply by Sean Steckbeck on
-
Bill,
By the way...
We just invited some people who are interested in house church in Jerusalem to participate in a 1 Cor 14 discipleship house church meeting here in Beer Sheva.
They came here and loved it.
However, they asked us if we allowed to much heresy to be spoken out by the new believers and too many questions and too much freedom?
I told them, the meetings have as much freedom as they want... the more questions the better. Even bad teaching is good because it gives oppurtunity to help the people receive the revelation of good teaching with a good elder fascilitator.
INteresting, these people thought we had too much freedom and allowance of weird doctrine in our meetings, especially since 90 percent of our people are baby believers and have not yet developed completely sound doctrine besides in the basics that Yeshua is the Messiah... however, we allow this with guidance towards the good. We help them receive the revelation of good doctrine for themselves.
However, I would never allow them to go around and teach all the house congregations the doctrine of Universalism or other weird doctrines as fact... I would consider this "wolf activity... elders need to get involved.
Its part of discipling new babies!
-
Permalink Reply by Patrick on -
I don't believe that the early churches belief as a common understanding(that is to say all but the catholic teaching) of the possibility of God reconciling everyone to himself in or by His consuming fire of truth refining to be a movement...
At worst they were considered tenderhearted, but never wolves...or false teachers.
Keep in mind that was the teaching of 5 out of 6 of the time.
-
Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on -
Good reminder, Patrick.
The definition of what constitutes "heresy" has radically altered over the years -- at some point in history, every single one of us would've been declared a heretic by somebody.
I'll do a bit of research on this - you've got me curious about what's been considered heretical over the course of history...!
Shalom, Dena
Patrick said:I don't believe that the early churches belief as a common understanding(that is to say all but the catholic teaching) of the possibility of God reconciling everyone to himself in or by His consuming fire of truth refining to be a movement...
At worst they were considered tenderhearted, but never wolves...or false teachers.
Keep in mind that was the teaching of 5 out of 6 of the time.
-
Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
-
Excellent post, Chris!
I could've written every word, and I fully agree.
You've brought out many of the same points that Frank Viola wrote in his earlier books.
I too, want to hear what the Spirit is saying - I too want to be led by Him, in this incredible, internalized, Spirit-infused covenant we've been born into! He's in the details of our lives...!
Here's a silly little thing that happend just tonight, while I was fixing my younger childrens' dinner. I'd been focused on a long-distance call with a good friend, and had lost track of time. Three of my 5 youngest ganged up on me, staring plaintively into my face, with that "I'm dying of hunger, Mo-om!" expression. Realizing I had to rush to fix something they could eat (it's fend-for-yourself-night 'round here), I grabbed a package of yeast rolls, and a bag of chicken nuggets out of the freezer. I had 5 kidlets *LOUDLY* singing "Everybody Wants to be a Cat" in the kitchen (in at least 7 keys) -- they'd all just seen their older brother in a local production of "The Aristocats". Two other, older kids were also fixing something to eat. Noise and confusion in one small space.
I quickly microwaved the rolls (without counting how many), and then set out the nuggets on another plate ... I shot up a quick prayer, "I'm a wee bit overwhelmed here, God ... I don't want to squelch their fun, but I need to focus here -- how many nuggets should I fix -- I didn't count the rolls." I don't *usually* ask God to help me count out chicken nuggets, LOL, but I was in a hurry ... I heard "Seventeen." I thought, "that's on odd number God, I'm sure the rolls don't come in packages of 17!" But, still, 17 was the predominant thought. Ok, then. I counted out 17 nuggets, and heated them up. I started slicing through the rools (to make sandwiches), counting as I went (I was also listening to an interview with Frankie Schaeffer, the son of Francis, on the radio..). I got to the end of the bowl, and counted, "fifteen ... [slice] ... sixteen...[slice] ... seventeen." Looked in the bowl - no more.
Ok, silly, I know, but every so often it seems that God does something silly, as a sort of training exercise, to show me how I can tune into His Voice, that He's there, always there, always leading ... wanting for me to pray without ceasing (not as rote prayer, but including Him in on my day, carrying on a running conversation with Him, and listening to what He has to say -- He's actually got a brilliant sense of humor, too!).
Now, if I can just get that obnoxious song out of my head...! ;)
Shalom, Dena
Christopher Pridham said:I agree that God is moving but does it have to be a movement? Should we really be trying to define this move?
I also believe that God has given gifts to men and that these will manifest in His time within a local church. Although I do not see Elders listed as a gift. If I remember right an elder is a office you can attain to where the listed gifts were given by Jesus Himself (you can correct this if this is scripturally incorrect).
If we remember the story of the Israelites - we were introduced to a people that God wanted to lead. These people did not want God to lead them in His way (no permanent human leader, but Judges the Lord would raise up as He saw fit), they wanted a human King. A human is someone I can argue and disagree with, God is not someone I want to disagree with face to face.
Maybe the new move of God is not a new move but an old call to know God face to face. Not just learn about Him from the Bible but to really get to know Him, the one who dwells within in us. Can this be messy? Yes, I think we should expect it, and relax in it. It is what we need to go through to get to know His voice. Can we not allow each other to make mistakes and wait for the Lord to reveal Himself to each other? Or is it our call to pluck splinters out of everybody's eyes.
Remember the story at Corinth, they had some problems so Paul writes to the elders? No, its to the saints in Corinth, both times. How many New Testament letters were written to elders to get them to deal with the problem of false doctrine? None that I can think of - And it is not like they did not have false doctrine. (I don't think Timothy was considered an elder? )
I am not saying that the church does not need elders or that we don't need to deal with false doctrine, I just don't think the church has a great history in dealing with either of these issues very well. Typically the few voice's that say something different than the masses are shut down, imprisoned and destroyed (see church history 101). Traditionally elders have been more about Lording it over than about lovingly helping or serving the body. I do not know Tony Dale but in my opinion he has handled things on this site the way I would hope an elder would. He has encouraged everyone to love, accept and encourage each other. He has been graceful, patient and protected everybody from each other, and for that he should be commended, not chastised.
The only thing I have ever seen where we needed elders was for protecting saints from, people who want to speak and teach for the Lord. We have a Lord who wants us to know Him, not just about Him, but come to know His voice that speaks within us. If we can have men who encourage us to hear from the Lord and guard us from people who won't let that happen - Guard us from "Men who Know God's Way's" From men who teach what God has said instead of Gifted Men who can teach us how to hear His voice for ourselves.
To each of the churches in Asia John writes "To him who has an ear let Him hear what the Spirit says to the church"
Christopher
-
Permalink Reply by David on -
Sean,
what authority (if any) are you envisioning the role of bishops and elders possess concerning the individual members of God's anointed body?
If they are "guides" (as I understand), it makes perfect sense why we are instructed by scripture to qualify them. Each one of us have need to work out (settle) these matters that will effect our steadfast continuance in this journey ---with fear and trembling, that through patience we can posses our souls and finish this race.
The folly of men is always with us. Paul prayed for three years, day and night, with tears, because he knew that when he departed men would enter, seeking to make disciples UNTO THEMSELVES.
The wisdom of God leaves the tares among the wheat.
Overseers and elders manifest God's provision of giftings of wonderful counsels within his own body.
In the multitude of counsels there is safety.
Individuals, having liberty in Christ, choose whom and what they will follow (what they are being led by).
Whatever God uses as a means of ingathering for the increase of his church, will always attract and bring with it the folly of men.
I am confident that God uses these strange voices to establish the settings that reveal the desires of our own hearts to us.
-
Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
-
Do I get to be a strange voice?
I really wanna be a strange voice...!
Shalom, Dena
David said:Sean,
what authority (if any) are you envisioning the role of bishops and elders possess concerning the individual members of God's anointed body?
If they are "guides" (as I understand), it makes perfect sense why we are instructed by scripture to qualify them. Each one of us have need to work out (settle) these matters that will effect our steadfast continuance in this journey ---with fear and trembling, that through patience we can posses our souls and finish this race.
The folly of men is always with us. Paul prayed for three years, day and night, with tears, because he knew that when he departed men would enter, seeking to make disciples UNTO THEMSELVES.
The wisdom of God leaves the tares among the wheat.
Overseers and elders manifest God's provision of giftings of wonderful counsels within his own body.
In the multitude of counsels there is safety.
Individuals, having liberty in Christ, choose whom and what they will follow (what they are being led by).
Whatever God uses as a means of ingathering for the increase of his church, will always attract and bring with it the folly of men.
I am confident that God uses these strange voices to establish the settings that reveal the desires of our own hearts to us.
Our Partners
Badge
© 2012 Created by Dale Interactive.
