If you really believe that, then I am going to take my ball and go home! Handling disagreements on public forums.
I'm beginning to see why some have urged me to be "full-time" in ministry. It takes so much time to track my last thread I'm hardly sure that I dare start another! I just spent an hour reading the previous one from top to bottom to try to understand why many feel so strongly about the issues that came up in the thread. And the thread was not really about those issues in the first place! It was supposed to be about character, graciousness, and how to handle disagreements. I would love to measure the blood pressure of many of those on that previous thread, on both sides of the issues! (I apologize, that is my old medical training worrying about stress levels.) One person did graciously remind people halfway through the thread that "the one person who opinion was asked (TD-that's me) didn't seem to have clearly expressed his opinion.
That's right, and I can assure you that was on purpose. I have learned over the years that "those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still." I have strong feelings about lots of issues that I hardly ever bother to express. Because there are nearly always higher conerns. This is where I would like to thank Tim and Katie Mather (check the signers of the US Constitution and you will learn something about their roots!!) for the common and Biblical sense that they brought to the thread. They also brought it back to the very subject that I was hoping to see discussed. Namely: "How do we discuss our differences." When I was in high school I knew I was right, and I really didn't want to listen to your viewpoint. When I was in college I knew I was right but I loved to argue with you over your viewpoint. By the time I had about 10 plus years of medical and missions/church leadership under my belt, I was seriously wondering if I was wrong, but I didn't want to admit it yet. Now with about 30+ years of leadership experience I know that I may be wrong, and that you may be wrong too! We just don't see the whole picture, and so we need each other to keep iron sharpening iron
Someone commented earlier today on previous thread (discussion) that "The Dale's do not seem to have any intention of controlling the forums. So can we remain?" That is maybe a key question! About 8 years ago the Lord spoke very clearly to Felicity about the increasing amount of influence that she and I were having within the emerging house church movements. The Lord told her that there was to be "No empire building, No Control, and No Glory (to us obviously!) We live with that word. I have no desire to "control" what happens on the forums. In fact that is pretty much totally against what I believe in the nature of "Authority". But I do recognize that "the law is a schoolmaster to bring one to Christ." Sometimes we need some guidelines to help us. If you want to discuss controversial issues, that is fine, but do it on a thread (discussion/forum) that you identify as such. And let's keep the personal remarks about people out of this.
With all of the Biblical knowledge and passion that goes into a discussion, the key issue is still Jesus' new commandment "to love one antoher. Someone shared in this previous thread that "I would hate for the leaven of false doctine to split a movement." Then my challenge to them is "Don't let it." Reach out, not to argue but to build bridges. Don't personally challenge someone as to whether or not they are even a Christian just because they have a different doctrinal starting place than you. Instead love them, even while reserving your right to disagree with them." Another person wanted the www.simplechurch.com site , "not (to be) a happy go lucky bless me club . . .but a unified, multiplication and apostolic movement." Another wrote to me at my email "that it is time for the Elders to arise." But my understanding of this and theirs may be different.
I am "DAD" to four grown up children. That's like being an elder. My kids have had some serious disagreements. Things about which they said to me they "wouldn't even talk to the other one any more." I work with them behind the scenes. I pray for them. But I don't often (almost never, now that they are grown up) tell them what to do. And even if I did, I wouldn't expect them to do what I said unless they agreed with me. Authority is exercised through relationships, not through position.
So, where do we go from here. That up to all of you reading this. To me it is like the never ending arguments over whether we need more government or less government. The more people are willing to govern themselves, the less they will look for or even want government doing things for them. They less people are willing to be self-controlled, the more they end up with government (or "elders and apostles") doing the control for them. Count me out! I don't mean out of here, but out of being willing to provide that type of "control" on this type of issue! I have long since stopped saying what we hear in the playground that if you won't play ball my way then I am going to take my ball and go home!
That's right, and I can assure you that was on purpose. I have learned over the years that "those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still." I have strong feelings about lots of issues that I hardly ever bother to express. Because there are nearly always higher conerns. This is where I would like to thank Tim and Katie Mather (check the signers of the US Constitution and you will learn something about their roots!!) for the common and Biblical sense that they brought to the thread. They also brought it back to the very subject that I was hoping to see discussed. Namely: "How do we discuss our differences." When I was in high school I knew I was right, and I really didn't want to listen to your viewpoint. When I was in college I knew I was right but I loved to argue with you over your viewpoint. By the time I had about 10 plus years of medical and missions/church leadership under my belt, I was seriously wondering if I was wrong, but I didn't want to admit it yet. Now with about 30+ years of leadership experience I know that I may be wrong, and that you may be wrong too! We just don't see the whole picture, and so we need each other to keep iron sharpening iron
Someone commented earlier today on previous thread (discussion) that "The Dale's do not seem to have any intention of controlling the forums. So can we remain?" That is maybe a key question! About 8 years ago the Lord spoke very clearly to Felicity about the increasing amount of influence that she and I were having within the emerging house church movements. The Lord told her that there was to be "No empire building, No Control, and No Glory (to us obviously!) We live with that word. I have no desire to "control" what happens on the forums. In fact that is pretty much totally against what I believe in the nature of "Authority". But I do recognize that "the law is a schoolmaster to bring one to Christ." Sometimes we need some guidelines to help us. If you want to discuss controversial issues, that is fine, but do it on a thread (discussion/forum) that you identify as such. And let's keep the personal remarks about people out of this.
With all of the Biblical knowledge and passion that goes into a discussion, the key issue is still Jesus' new commandment "to love one antoher. Someone shared in this previous thread that "I would hate for the leaven of false doctine to split a movement." Then my challenge to them is "Don't let it." Reach out, not to argue but to build bridges. Don't personally challenge someone as to whether or not they are even a Christian just because they have a different doctrinal starting place than you. Instead love them, even while reserving your right to disagree with them." Another person wanted the www.simplechurch.com site , "not (to be) a happy go lucky bless me club . . .but a unified, multiplication and apostolic movement." Another wrote to me at my email "that it is time for the Elders to arise." But my understanding of this and theirs may be different.
I am "DAD" to four grown up children. That's like being an elder. My kids have had some serious disagreements. Things about which they said to me they "wouldn't even talk to the other one any more." I work with them behind the scenes. I pray for them. But I don't often (almost never, now that they are grown up) tell them what to do. And even if I did, I wouldn't expect them to do what I said unless they agreed with me. Authority is exercised through relationships, not through position.
So, where do we go from here. That up to all of you reading this. To me it is like the never ending arguments over whether we need more government or less government. The more people are willing to govern themselves, the less they will look for or even want government doing things for them. They less people are willing to be self-controlled, the more they end up with government (or "elders and apostles") doing the control for them. Count me out! I don't mean out of here, but out of being willing to provide that type of "control" on this type of issue! I have long since stopped saying what we hear in the playground that if you won't play ball my way then I am going to take my ball and go home!
Tags: disagreements, handling
Views: 6
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bill Benninghoff on -
Thanks for your balanced and wise leadership here Tony. I think that all of us on this website need one another, and the more we divide, we are just playing into the plan of the enemy. It reminds me of the story we read in the 9th chapter of Mark's gospel where the disciples got upset because they saw someone else casting out demons that wasn't a part of "their" group. They tried to stop that person but Jesus said that they should let him alone since all who were not against them were really with them. We tend to be so quick to divide over who is right about this or that.
Too often in church history followers of Jesus have divided bitterly over doctrine. Too often they have gone to war to defend their doctrines. It seems to me that we need to start gathering around the Person of Jesus and not around a set of doctrines. I'm not sure exactly what that looks like because all of us have different understandings of Jesus and we all see through a glass darkly. For me personally every time I write down a statement of doctrines that I believe in it becomes obsolete in a few years because much of my understanding has grown.
There are practical ways we can help each other here on this site without having to agree on doctrines. We can share our stories of how the Lord brought us into an understanding of simple church. We can share our experiences of what has worked and what hasn't worked in our attempts at "being" simple church and "doing" simple church. We can share insights we have gained through studying the Scriptures, prayer, reading books, etc.
Hopefully we can be mature enough to continue the partnership that this website offers us despite our differences over doctrine. I don't think we need to be afraid of ideas that are different than our own. Jesus is well able to build His church in spite of our different opinions. He is the One building the church and not us. Thank God for that !!
I don't think He is as dependent on us being "right" with our doctrines as we sometimes think He is in order for Him to do His work of making us into His image and building His Body in the earth. Being committed to love someone who thinks differently than I do is certainly a greater challenge than surrounding myself with other people who all think the same as I do. I am glad we have people on this site with divergent doctrinal views. We can all learn from one another if we maintain an attitude of humility and a listening heart.
I think that Jesus is most interested in the condition of our hearts rather than in our doctrines. Are we teachable? Are we willing to admit we might be wrong? Are we willing to learn from others? Are we vulnerable? Are we gentle? Are we loving? Are we willing to give up our desire to control? All that is way more important than having the right set of doctrines. Truth is a Person and He is meek and lowly in heart. My prayer is that we will become more and more like Him as we journey together.
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Permalink Reply by Keith on
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Just one thought Tony,
When my kids were younger, and found something to squabble about I saw it as my role to at least separate them to stop the argument, and then when peace had returned to moderate a rational discussion to come to a thought out conclusion together.
Blessings
Keith
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Permalink Reply by Nik P. on -
Aida said:I believe online groups need to be moderated. As long as things are going well there's no problem but when the squabbling starts, I believe the owner of the site should step in to help calm things down. Self moderation is a wonderful thing but not many can do that so to keep people from hurting one another, as Keith suggested, I think it's wise to step in and separate the combatants for a cooling off period until calm discussion can occur. This doesn't have to be done in a heavy handed manner. With squabbling children, a gentle but firm touch on the shoulder is often enugh to quiet thhings down. I've been on forums where when squabbling has started, the owner has gently stepped in and restored peace. As a result, the discussions on this site never get out of control with members being needlessly hurt. Aida
Tony said, "That is maybe a key question! About 8 years ago the Lord spoke very clearly to Felicity about the increasing amount of influence that she and I were having within the emerging house church movements. The Lord told her that there was to be "No empire building, No Control, and No Glory (to us obviously!) We live with that word. I have no desire to "control" what happens on the forums. In fact that is pretty much totally against what I believe in the nature of "Authority". . .Authority is exercised through relationships, not through position."
Tony,
These statements back to back have really helped illuminate the discussion for me. I believe that whenever there seems to be such a dichotomy, the Holy Spirit has a third way we have not yet found which satisfies both. I hear your fears about about Empire building and I think Felicity has given you wise counsel. However, we have also seen the effects of no moderation in a public forum where we cannot assume the maturity of participants. Authority with mature adults may come from relationship, like with your adult children. As Keith highlighted, the authority you had when they were young came from your position as dad, and the power you had to affect their participation in the squabble.
So, let me offer this. You have already called out Tim and Katie Mather for their common and Biblical sense. They are, in essence, moderating as 'elders' but without the power to delete inappropriate material. I do not believe they are the only ones acting on this capacity either. Jon has wisely handled situations, WITH the power to delete as well. Isn't it the way of the simple church? All to participate according to their capacity?
Therefore, I think you are absolutely correct that you should not be the only 'elder' to 'control' the board. I suggest that you go to the tabs across the top and click on 'manage'. Third row down, click on "Members." Pray about this and check the box in front of the names of those who have demonstrated this capacity. Finally, click on that white bar at the top that says, "Promote to Administrator." I have done this on my Ning site, and I assure you that when they log in, they create their own password and operate as an additional administrator, not as site creator.
We do not even have to know who the other moderators are. Simply let it be known that there are elders in the house, even when you are on vacation. I humbly submit this challenge to you Tony, in truth and love.
Nik
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Permalink Reply by Tony Dale on -
This is an interesting suggestion which I will pass around to some others who help us on the site. With large numbers of discussions going on at any time clearly no one, two, or even three people can "moderate" all that goes on. The design of the site is based on giving everyone as much freedom as possible. But yes, sometimes we do have to step in. Increasing the number of those who can do that with a minimum of "command and control" structure to interfer, may be a very good idea. Thanks, and keep the suggestions coming!
Chaplain Nik said:Aida said:I believe online groups need to be moderated. As long as things are going well there's no problem but when the squabbling starts, I believe the owner of the site should step in to help calm things down. Self moderation is a wonderful thing but not many can do that so to keep people from hurting one another, as Keith suggested, I think it's wise to step in and separate the combatants for a cooling off period until calm discussion can occur. This doesn't have to be done in a heavy handed manner. With squabbling children, a gentle but firm touch on the shoulder is often enugh to quiet thhings down. I've been on forums where when squabbling has started, the owner has gently stepped in and restored peace. As a result, the discussions on this site never get out of control with members being needlessly hurt. Aida
Tony said, "That is maybe a key question! About 8 years ago the Lord spoke very clearly to Felicity about the increasing amount of influence that she and I were having within the emerging house church movements. The Lord told her that there was to be "No empire building, No Control, and No Glory (to us obviously!) We live with that word. I have no desire to "control" what happens on the forums. In fact that is pretty much totally against what I believe in the nature of "Authority". . .Authority is exercised through relationships, not through position."
Tony,
These statements back to back have really helped illuminate the discussion for me. I believe that whenever there seems to be such a dichotomy, the Holy Spirit has a third way we have not yet found which satisfies both. I hear your fears about about Empire building and I think Felicity has given you wise counsel. However, we have also seen the effects of no moderation in a public forum where we cannot assume the maturity of participants. Authority with mature adults may come from relationship, like with your adult children. As Keith highlighted, the authority you had when they were young came from your position as dad, and the power you had to affect their participation in the squabble.
So, let me offer this. You have already called out Tim and Katie Mather for their common and Biblical sense. They are, in essence, moderating as 'elders' but without the power to delete inappropriate material. I do not believe they are the only ones acting on this capacity either. Jon has wisely handled situations, WITH the power to delete as well. Isn't it the way of the simple church? All to participate according to their capacity?
Therefore, I think you are absolutely correct that you should not be the only 'elder' to 'control' the board. I suggest that you go to the tabs across the top and click on 'manage'. Third row down, click on "Members." Pray about this and check the box in front of the names of those who have demonstrated this capacity. Finally, click on that white bar at the top that says, "Promote to Administrator." I have done this on my Ning site, and I assure you that when they log in, they create their own password and operate as an additional administrator, not as site creator.
We do not even have to know who the other moderators are. Simply let it be known that there are elders in the house, even when you are on vacation. I humbly submit this challenge to you Tony, in truth and love.
Nik
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Permalink Reply by Sean Steckbeck on -
I agree with everyone about having moderators is neccessary.
May I also suggest on such doctrines as Universalism, that a statement of good and sound doctrine should be made.
All I have been asking during this entire thread is that a sound doctrinal stance be made by "elders" refuting Universalism.
I don't even think that those who promote universalism should be kicked out, unless they start causing considerable damage to the house church movement and their influence grows rapidly.
However, either way, Tony, I implore you, it is YOUR JOB to tell us you do not believe in universalism and that you believe it is heresy as the leader of this forum, especially since you already responded and did not mention that Universalism is heresy.
Something you have not done yet.
Universalism is heresy, this is not my opinion, this is truth.
If you allow this to go unrefuted by mature elders with sound doctrine, its just like allowing the opinion that homosexuality is not sin or other heresies.
Maybe my expectations are high of you, but I expect you as a person who is naturally seen as an example in the house church movement to publically state Universalism is heresy, especially since of its recent popularity in the house church movement and this forum in particular.
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Permalink Reply by Linden on -
Tony,
I know I have said this in the past. This is actually what I think most of the more frequent posters have asked for. IF there had been alternate "moderators" (not police as you insist on refer to them) then there might not have been the melt down that happened while you were sunning yourself in Mexico.
My point being all of this could have been avoided.
Lin
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Permalink Reply by Connie on -
Dena and I have communicated almost daily for over 5 years and I have observed her journey. She is as sincere as any person I have ever known. She listens and learns, and tries to follow where God leads her. She is honest in her belief about God. I know she would never willingly lead another person astray. If she learns something that seems correct and right to her, she naturally wants to share it with the world. Then if she learns something opposite, she'll do the same. Her mind is open, not closed. She is following God's light, and I trust she would be able to recognize if and when her path became dark.
I have read enough here to realize the rest are doing basically the same thing. The problem arises when you each show up with a slightly different opinion. What is right for one apparently is not right for all. You need to accept that and keep searching for your own light and truth and knowledge.
Every person has the right to live in truth and error. I'll bet there isn't a single person out there who isn't willing to change once they figure out where they're wrong. The hard part is admitting we are wrong when we are wrong.
As one who loves the Lord, I consider myself a fellow-citizen with you.
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Permalink Reply by Tony Dale on
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One suggestion that I would like to make for those of you who would like to see the forums moderated, is that you take those discussions to the www.house2house.com site. That site's forums/discussions are actually designed to be moderated, and the software, etc. that is necessary to do that well is all in place. This site is not set up in the same way, and bringing moderated forums to this site would be a significantly more complex process.
Sean, you have mentioned a couple of times that you would like to see a statement of faith. I want to make a quick comment about such statements. In my experience the statement ALWAYS ends up defining as "outside the fold" some people who Jesus almost certainly considers "inside the fold." Let me give you an example: I have lots of Catholic friends who think that they still believe doctrine as taught by the Catholic church such as "the immaculate conception" of Mary. Let's say we define ourselves as Protestant. Do we want to exclude the Catholics who love Jesus with all their hearts. Let's say we define ourselves as "Charismatic." Do we want to exclude the huge number of active evangelicals who are still not sure about Charismatic issues. Let's say that we want to define ourselves as "evangelicals." Do we want to exclude those who love Jesus but would now call themselves "post-evangelical."
I am not interested in defining people as outside of the fold. I know that we are all on a journey, and for all of us our understanding grows, matures, changes, changes back, encompasses new ideas, begins to understand old ideas, etc. Maybe we could define this as wanting to learn from all who love Jesus, love His word, and seek to follow Him passionately with every part of their lives. Now having said that, I realize that is still incomplete as I also want to learn from those who don't yet know Jesus, but have a lot to teach me about humility, passion for social concern, business.
So we are back to where we started. You and I know that most of us on this site hold far more in common that we ever hold in disagreement. Let's build on what we have rather than on what we don't have. If we want to discuss/argue about what we don't have in a moderated environment, then the www.house2house.com discussion groups would be a great place to do it.
As for me, I really don't want to devote much time to argue over those things. I'm busy trying to connect with my "neighbors" (mainly business colleagues and squash friends and others locally who are passionate about church planting) and build relationships that lead to a greater revelation of Jesus in each of us.
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Permalink Reply by Patrick on -
"YOU MUST!! This is scary verbage to demand of Tony or anyone. I love God with all my heart through Jesus Christ. I bow to Him alone and made Him Lord of my life. I believe that He has the power and will to save all, I believe that it may take some longer than others and their lies will eventually be no more. I believe ever knee shall bow and tounge confess that He is Lord to that end. "Am I or anyone who thinks that way the enemy or need to be silenced? I have yet to hear anyone give me any evidence other than rhetorical traditional stuff that suggests that this is not a viable possibility. I see more and more factual evidence that the early church believed differently until much later on.
I also believe that the turn or burn tatics are in poor taste. It is not even close to the same as what God calls a sexuak sin.
Why is it so important that people are tortured for eternity in Hell??? If both of us are saved and love the Lord and are not going there anyway. Who would have a more loving message to give to someone? Love me or burn forever message? or Jesus Saved You, done deal, Have life now so that you don't have to go through the pain of tearing out the lies that keep you from reciprocating His love.
The only people Jesus seemed to have issues with were the Faith based Know it alls...
Sean Steckbeck said:I agree with everyone about having moderators is neccessary.
May I also suggest on such doctrines as Universalism, that a statement of good and sound doctrine should be made.
All I have been asking during this entire thread is that a sound doctrinal stance be made by "elders" refuting Universalism.
I don't even think that those who promote universalism should be kicked out, unless they start causing considerable damage to the house church movement and their influence grows rapidly.
However, either way, Tony, I implore you, it is YOUR JOB to tell us you do not believe in universalism and that you believe it is heresy as the leader of this forum, especially since you already responded and did not mention that Universalism is heresy.
Something you have not done yet.
Universalism is heresy, this is not my opinion, this is truth.
If you allow this to go unrefuted by mature elders with sound doctrine, its just like allowing the opinion that homosexuality is not sin or other heresies.
Maybe my expectations are high of you, but I expect you as a person who is naturally seen as an example in the house church movement to publically state Universalism is heresy, especially since of its recent popularity in the house church movement and this forum in particular.
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on -
Claudia said:Good Grief! This thread is going to turn into being all about Dena too? What is up with this?? Isn't it funny already how when anyone begins to talk about not playing well together, controversy, heresy, etc, Dena's name always comes up somewhere in the program? Whodathunk she would become a celebrity? Her name gets credit more than Jesus lately... WOW!
It's because I'm all-powerful.
We heretics just are, y'know...! ;)
Do I get a funny hat?!? Because if I'm going to be the resident Heretical-Jezebel-Celebrity who can't play nicely with anybody, and who's out for Jesus' job, I really wanna wear a funny hat.
Oh - and a scarlet "H" on my forehead. That too...! ;)
Shalom, Dena
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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LOL, Connie...!
What a delight to find you here! :)
If only the folks here knew what manner of discussions you and I have been through, no? ;) Talk about being at odds, and yet respecting and loving each other...!
Your kindness to me makes me want to cry - thank you.
(& pssst! It's been almost 6 years!)
Yes, indeed, Connie -- you belong here. You do love Him (which is why you showed up!). I vouch for that.
Shalom, Dena
Connie said:Dena and I have communicated almost daily for over 5 years and I have observed her journey. She is as sincere as any person I have ever known. She listens and learns, and tries to follow where God leads her. She is honest in her belief about God. I know she would never willingly lead another person astray. If she learns something that seems correct and right to her, she naturally wants to share it with the world. Then if she learns something opposite, she'll do the same. Her mind is open, not closed. She is following God's light, and I trust she would be able to recognize if and when her path became dark.
I have read enough here to realize the rest are doing basically the same thing. The problem arises when you each show up with a slightly different opinion. What is right for one apparently is not right for all. You need to accept that and keep searching for your own light and truth and knowledge.
Every person has the right to live in truth and error. I'll bet there isn't a single person out there who isn't willing to change once they figure out where they're wrong. The hard part is admitting we are wrong when we are wrong.
As one who loves the Lord, I consider myself a fellow-citizen with you.
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Permalink Reply by Sean Steckbeck on
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Tony,
ALl I was asking is that you mention that Universalism is heresy.... this is all.
You refuse to do this because you want to be inclusive, I understand now.
We are all on a journey, but the Western church is going downhill very fast.
The Emergent Church movement, which is one of the top influencers in America, for instance, believes for the most part that homosexuality is not sin (at least Tony Campolo).
Liberal christianity is allowing for homosexual ministers to be ordained.
Now the simple church movement is allowing the doctrine to be preached that there is no Hell so we can be inclusive.
If we want to be inclusive, we may find ourselves riding an antichrist wave.
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