Making Disciples

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Permalink Reply by Jeremiah Hart on July 9, 2009 at 8:21pm

Hello bro,
Unfortunately the term “Making Disciples” can be misleading. Considering that true discipleship results from something that looks a lot more like child training than making a cake.

Much like Church building looks more like a family than a corporation.

I know, I a master at pointing out the obvious! Just call me Mr. Obvious!

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Permalink Reply by molong nacua on July 10, 2009 at 6:49am

Ha ha ha Lol....
Alright, Mr. Obvious!!! Good thought though.
I like your way of thinking.
Well, i just made that up basing Jesus said, "Go and make disciples" rather than using discipleship.
Discipleship is structured and systematic. And I am also strict with using words, for in every word there is already a system going on behind. So redefining them ignites some discussions.
Ok, let's start here. What do you think should we name them? I mean name our job?
Surely its not discipleship eh?

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Permalink Reply by Ador Guerrero on July 17, 2009 at 8:02am

Hi there bro, the basic element in discipleship is relationship. What kind of relationship? longlasting relationship because the word behind discipleship is ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP.

molong nacua said:

Ha ha ha Lol....
Alright, Mr. Obvious!!! Good thought though.
I like your way of thinking.
Well, i just made that up basing Jesus said, "Go and make disciples" rather than using discipleship.
Discipleship is structured and systematic. And I am also strict with using words, for in every word there is already a system going on behind. So redefining them ignites some discussions.
Ok, let's start here. What do you think should we name them? I mean name our job?
Surely its not discipleship eh?

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Permalink Reply by molong nacua on July 17, 2009 at 9:19pm

Yah right bro, eternal life means eternal relationships with God.
The relationship factor should not be 'pastor and member' but 'parents in the Lord and children in the Lord.
A 'pastor-member' relationships may depend on church memberships, or 'my missionary mentality' but a 'father and son' relationships last for a lifetime. We ought to raise spiritual sons and daughters in the Lord. And order to do that we should be intentional enough to let the person know by saying to him, "My son Timothy..." "My dear children..." for how can he know if he is a son if you will not tell him. Though unlike your own physical children, you don't need to say it though at times you have to.

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Permalink Reply by michael on July 18, 2009 at 1:10am

Hi brother Molong N et al,

The following is an excerpt from a thread entitled "doing discipleship...the HARD way!"

Now, some of you are probably shocked. You might think that I was mean or something to insist that this man do what he quite obviously didn't want to do. But, if so, I see it differently. Discipleship involves "discipline," and most of us need a little push (or two) when it comes to doing things we probably should, but wouldn't do under normal circumstances and left to our own preferences. And that is one thing I see lacking in most approaches to Christian discipleship: we teach people a lot of stuff, a lot of doctrine, but we don't help them much when it comes to "how to." This man did not have my personality; I knew that! But I wanted to see if he had commitment...to the group, to me, to evangelism, and ultimately to Christ himself.

To access the entire discussion, please click here:

http://www.simplechurch.com/forum/topics/doing-discipleshipthe-hard...

Shabbat Shalom from Manila,
--Michael

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Permalink Reply by michael on July 18, 2009 at 1:33am

Hi again, brother Molong et al,

Currently I meet with several groups of people who desire for me to help them in their relationships with the Lord. Some of these are very "intentional," taking the form of classes -- doctrinal and language (I am a Hebrew teacher). Other times they are just get-togethers with no particular agenda...except that we all know that somewhere along the line we are going to end up studying Scripture and evaluating ourselves according to what we study together. Tons of discussions. Lots of room for differing opinions and even debate (the Pinoys that end up hanging out with me either already had a very counter-cultural hankering for debate or they develop a taste for it after time). There are assignments with penalties for slackers, rewards for the diligent. We all desire that our doctrine translate into character. There is a sense of pressure I place on the groups I work with, similar to how a coach pressures the athletes on his team to excel beyond what they believe they are capable of. I realize that my approach is not for everybody, but it is for some people. And...from the looks of my schedule, there are lots of people here in Manila who believe that my approach (taught me by my godly mentors...and the Lord Himself) is for them!

Shabbat Shalom from Manila,
--Michael

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Permalink Reply by molong nacua on July 18, 2009 at 2:08am

Hi Michael, its good to know the kind of approach you used to several people in your groups.
Question: What you mean 'intentional'? Is it what you're saying 'form of classes'? How effective is this system?
And how long does this group meet together for discussions and debates and etc? And when are they ready to make disciples? Or are they doing it already? What are their approach to make disciples? What are you teaching them in order for them to do it?
I am interested as we are all learning from each other.
Molong

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Permalink Reply by michael on August 5, 2009 at 9:35am

Hi brother Molong,

You wrote:

What you mean 'intentional'?

"Intentional" in "Simple Church" speak means scheduled.

How effective is this system?

More effective than "non-scheduled" because it results in tons of time together.

And how long does this group meet together for discussions and debates and etc?

My Monday and Thursday group meets from 3:30-5:00pm...except on Thursday which, because of "coding" (i.e. certain vehicles aren't allowed to drive in Manila until after 7:00pm to cut down on traffic), means that we stick together until at least 7:00pm. Then we usually eat out together...and continue our conversations/debates until 8:00-9:00pm. Then there is the ride home...

My Wednesday group (with some overlap from the Monday and Thursday crew) meets from 6:00-7:30pm...or so.

My Friday morning group (completely different people) meets from 10:00am until 11:30am...or so.

My Friday evening group (our SC's main meeting) gets together from 6:00-10:00pm...or so.

We also meet together at various events and in people's homes throughout the week. As you can see, the schedule is packed. That does not in itself mean anything, but there is a lot of personal time with folks, as well as application of the Scriptures to our lives during and between these events.

And when are they ready to make disciples? Or are they doing it already?

People are at various stages. Most are making disciples, but some are just startng their journeys with Christ and are given time to develop their personal walks before it being suggested to them that they too should be making disciples. I am not formulaic with this. I watch the people and try to discern where they are in each case. At least for me...

What are their approach to make disciples?

Oftentimes it is similar to what I have exemplified before them. However, it is usually a halo-halo of what they have seen me do, what they have seen others do, and what they have read or heard from still others. Which I think is great!

What are you teaching them in order for them to do it?

I am generally expository. So we usually go verse by verse, chapter by chapter through certain biblical books. On Mondays and Thursdays we are in the Joseph narrative from Genesis. In my Wednesday group we are in Romans. In my Friday morning group we have just finished Jonah and are about to begin Ruth. And in my Friday evening group we systematically go through the Law of Moses, over and over again, with related readings each cycle through from the Prophets and from the New Testament writings.

That's how we do it. How are you making disciples, brother Molong?

Shalom from Pasig,
--Michael

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Permalink Reply by David Evans on August 5, 2009 at 12:17pm

Michael

(this is just anecdotal AND for observational light discussion, NOT contrarian :)

If Jesus is our example... it seems to me that he made disciples by eating, drinking, talking, fellowshipping and not very scheduled ( "intentional").

I know there where moments where he definitely taught didactically but most of the time it seems very infromal and unscheduled and less expository and more interactive. Would this not also be a possible mode of discipleship?



michael said:

Hi brother Molong,

You wrote:

What you mean 'intentional'?

"Intentional" in "Simple Church" speak means scheduled.

How effective is this system?

More effective than "non-scheduled" because it results in tons of time together.

And how long does this group meet together for discussions and debates and etc?

My Monday and Thursday group meets from 3:30-5:00pm...except on Thursday which, because of "coding" (i.e. certain vehicles aren't allowed to drive in Manila until after 7:00pm to cut down on traffic), means that we stick together until at least 7:00pm. Then we usually eat out together...and continue our conversations/debates until 8:00-9:00pm. Then there is the ride home...

My Wednesday group (with some overlap from the Monday and Thursday crew) meets from 6:00-7:30pm...or so.

My Friday morning group (completely different people) meets from 10:00am until 11:30am...or so.

My Friday evening group (our SC's main meeting) gets together from 6:00-10:00pm...or so.

We also meet together at various events and in people's homes throughout the week. As you can see, the schedule is packed. That does not in itself mean anything, but there is a lot of personal time with folks, as well as application of the Scriptures to our lives during and between these events.

And when are they ready to make disciples? Or are they doing it already?

People are at various stages. Most are making disciples, but some are just startng their journeys with Christ and are given time to develop their personal walks before it being suggested to them that they too should be making disciples. I am not formulaic with this. I watch the people and try to discern where they are in each case. At least for me...

What are their approach to make disciples?

Oftentimes it is similar to what I have exemplified before them. However, it is usually a halo-halo of what they have seen me do, what they have seen others do, and what they have read or heard from still others. Which I think is great!

What are you teaching them in order for them to do it?

I am generally expository. So we usually go verse by verse, chapter by chapter through certain biblical books. On Mondays and Thursdays we are in the Joseph narrative from Genesis. In my Wednesday group we are in Romans. In my Friday morning group we have just finished Jonah and are about to begin Ruth. And in my Friday evening group we systematically go through the Law of Moses, over and over again, with related readings each cycle through from the Prophets and from the New Testament writings.

That's how we do it. How are you making disciples, brother Molong?

Shalom from Pasig,
--Michael

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Permalink Reply by michael on August 5, 2009 at 5:58pm

Hi David E et al,

You wrote:

I know there where moments where he definitely taught didactically but most of the time it seems very infromal and unscheduled and less expository and more interactive. Would this not also be a possible mode of discipleship?

I've had guys move into our house for the less formal style discipleship, but rare are those sorts of people. I had one guy who actually moved he and his family across town so that he could be a couple of doors down from our unit (we live in a townhome complex), but again this is highly unusual. Either way though this close-quarters approach allowed these guys to observe me with my family and conducting day-to-day activities. That is optimal.

What is more usual in our less agrarian (than Jesus') modern-day set-up is for people to give me time from their schedules. It is not optimal, I'll admit. But it still helps; it's certainly better than just staring at the back of folks' heads, singing, hearing a sermon, giving an offering, and going home never to see each other again until the next week. All of our get-togethers this way are still very interactive. It is not just me sitting there teaching them. It is friends unloading, confessing, asking, sharing...that sort of thing. Again, I'd prefer to do it just like Jesus did, but the reality is our cultures are different so I'll take it and give it any way I can.

Shalom from Pasig,
--Michael

P.S. I have a friend who discipled ex-pirates. He met one pirate, led him to the Lord, then he got invited by the now born-again ex-pirate to lead Bible studies on his boat while the crew (no longer pirating...at this juncture [a few went back...backslid]) went from port to port hauling for a wealthy Australian. This went on for six month...intensive discipleship. They came to the end of their contracted time and the Australian skipped out on them and didn't pay them. So they were stranded in a little fishing village called Bongalon in Bicol province.Without money or provisions, like I said, some of the guys went back to pirating to survive. Others -- the majority -- took it as God's leading and they planted a church in that fishing village. God provided for their basic needs. The church is thriving now and the guy doing the discipleship moved his wife and kid from Manila to live in a shack in Bongalon. He's built onto it and the church sometimes meets there in the outside (there are too many people to meet inside). You can see two pictures of the place and people on my Simple Church page here [ http://www.simplechurch.com/photo/photo/listForContributor?screenNa... ]. Look for the word "Bongalon." The one who discipled the pirates and planted the church is the "surfer" looking guy to the far left in the group shot. Obviously I am the foreigner in the back.

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Permalink Reply by michael on August 5, 2009 at 6:16pm

Also quickly, I've attached an article entitled "First Century Discipleship" written by an American scholar and friend who has lived in Israel since the 1960s, David Bivin. It will give you a taste of what being a disciple of a rabbi meant to Jewish people in Jesus' day. I downloaded the article from here:

http://jerusalemperspective.com/%5Cdefault.aspx?tabid=27&Articl...

Shalom from Pasig,
--Michael

Attachments:

• First Century Discipleship - David Bivn.doc, 44 KB

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