Obey your “Pastors,” and submit to their authority… Wait a minute? Where’s that in the Bible?
In the midst of our exploration of the scriptures, one raised the issue that we were “to obey our Pastors in all things.” My first thought was “where’s that in the bible?” I challenged the person to show me where the scriptures said that...
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Permalink Reply by Claude Richards on -
Hey Whoa!
I’m sure my parents sent me off to kindergarten with an Obey your teachers. And I’m just as certain they would have had a problem with my repeating the kindergarten experience even a second year. But would ANY parent want to find their children occupying the same seat, enjoying the same educational “ministry” year after year? Much less command them to do so.
I have older siblings who served as baby sitters on various occasions during my childhood. I’m sure I was told to listen to them. But if they tried to assert some authority over me now on that basis, I would set them straight in no uncertain terms.
Much of the New Testament was written in an evangelical/missionary environment. Much was addressed not to mature brothers, but to new believers. Kindergarteners.
The Word says You people need to grow up: by this time you ought to be teachers. A cruel taunt to laymen God intended to remain forever dependent on a class of clerical babysitting overlords?
Grow up, already!
Be well, Claude
3/13/2012
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Permalink Reply by Sandy McCoy- Foust on -
Galatians Chapter 3 & 4 ..Paul (A Great Leader) quotes "My children with whom I am again in labor "until" Christ is formed in you" says alot to me.
I felt I was to honor, submit, to those who were leading and guiding me in the word... and as a new believer. or one still needing milk. I did this....for many years.......I did learn many GOOD things...Praise God..
Paul also says "The law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. "But now that faith(Jesus) has come, we are no longer under a tutor, for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free man, male nor female. If we belong to Christ then we are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. As long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.
Now I know we are not talking Law & Grace here... Altho to me, being in the IC was much like being "under Law"...I submitted to "whatever my Pastors said" .(Heb 13 v.7)...I could not hear God for myself...(I was a child)...The Law was my tutor....but when Grace, (Christ) came ...I was hearing JESUS...14 years later... when I started hearing...control...condemnation......guilt....I left...and I believe it was a date set by the Father...Amen?
As Claude says...there is a time to grow up, to become mature in the Lord.....The Holy Spirit is our Teacher and guide now
Shawnice I do believe Hebrews 13:7 should not apply to those leaders walking in manipulation....I just wasn't old enough "in the Lord" to understand that...Praise God for his hand of protection. I do believe my Leaders loved the Lord..and was doing what they felt led to do...But for me...the difference was ....Religion/Law verses Grace/Jesus... When I understood Grace,,,the bondage/chains of Law dropped...Unfortunately there is a mixture of law and grace being preached in the IC today...and the flock is scattered...
Galatians 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free, therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace
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Permalink Reply by Frank on -
I have been walking in this truth for perhaps 30 years since God first showed it to me. It can really get you into trouble!
To enlarge on what has already been said about Hebrews13. That page of my bible is covered in scrawl notes!
Shawnice, above, partly nails it. KJV Heb13v17. Obey those who have the rule over you. She is right in that it is more accurately translated as "be persuaded by".
However I want to dissect the second part. "Have the rule over you." This is also found in v7 "Remember them who have the rule over you."
I believe this is an appalling translation. Many other translations also say, "Remember your leaders" or something close to it. However we can look at the word leader on another light. A leader is generally presumed to also have the rule, but it is not always correct.
A leader might be your boss, the king or president, the head of a trade union etc. All these positions illustrate people who can have a command authority over you.
There is also another leader though. The one who wins the race, who climbs everest first, discovers America before others, did the training course ahead of you. All these are in merely in advance of you, but none of them have command over you.
The use of leader in Hebrews is in this manner and this manner alone. The writer is saying in the two verses.
v7 remember those who have gone before you, (done the journey before you) who have spoken the word......etc.
v13 Be persuaded by those who have gone before you........
I am quite adamant about this translation because the whole of Hebrews proves it!
To see this just go back to chapter 11
v2. For by it the elders (Patriarchs) received witness....
v4 By faith Abel
v5 By faith Enoch
This is followed by Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,.......and you can read all the rest OF THOSE WHO HAVE GONE BEFORE US, THE LEADERS OF CHAPTER13.
Chapter12 Wherefore seeing we are compassed around by so great a cloud of witnesses let us lay aside every weight...... YET AGAIN WE HAVE THOSE WHO HAVE GONE BEFORE US, THE LEADERS OF THE NEXT CHAPTER.
It is typical that those in authority usurp the glory earned by the forerunners of our faith. Hebrews has nothing whatsoever to do with obeying church leaders. These men demand our obedience just because they have a badge or certificate that says they are in a higher position than us. It is totally fraudulent, but what is worse, it takes our understanding away from the real meaning of Hebrews.
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Permalink Reply by Salvatore Vavalle on -
I've always taken that Hebrews 13:7 and 17 as in people like the disciples of Christ who were ahead of me by way of being in the faith longer, but not necessarily knowing more than me. All equally authoritative in the Lord and not one worth more or less.
I'm having a hard time in my church because of it lately. When I state something that the pastor in charge doesn't agree with because it is not what he learned in school, I get told that I just want to teach contrary to Scripture as if I'm a non-believer or something.
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Permalink Reply by Frank on
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Salvatore, You are completely right.
I have actually been thrown out of four churches for believing and walking in what I wrote above. Since then I have stayed away, choosing to meet with a handful of similar believers at home. I led them through to understand the truth that there is no other mediator than Jesus. Once each believer understands this truth, they experience an amazing sense of release at not always being "wrong" when they think their own spiritual thoughts that are different to the pastor.
To me most churches are no more than prison camps designed by Satan to ensure the saints stay as infantile milk drinkers. If all you are permitted to do needs the stamp of approval of the Pastor or priest, then nobody can grow beyond the pastor's faith. If he is mediocre, then the congregation will be mediocre. That is why Jesus said to the Pharisees, "woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, you shut up heaven to men, you neither enter in yourselves and you make sure that those who are trying cannot enter........"
Jesus was not saying that they had the power to prevent people going to heaven when they die, he was saying that they prevented anyone truly experiencing the kingdom of heaven being near to them, which is what Jesus came to bring. Church leaders have misled the saints into believing that their church or denomination is a manifestation of God's heaven on earth.
Salvatore Vavalle said:I've always taken that Hebrews 13:7 and 17 as in people like the disciples of Christ who were ahead of me by way of being in the faith longer, but not necessarily knowing more than me. All equally authoritative in the Lord and not one worth more or less.
I'm having a hard time in my church because of it lately. When I state something that the pastor in charge doesn't agree with because it is not what he learned in school, I get told that I just want to teach contrary to Scripture as if I'm a non-believer or something.
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Permalink Reply by Sandy McCoy- Foust on
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WOW....Love this Frank.... you are pointing out some really good stuff here...It makes so much sense...Before I left the IC...I remember telling the pastor...something is wrong...something is missing....something is not right God was showing me things, but when I addressed them...I was told I was wrong.... The shunning started...I was in deception as far as they were concerned......and as the body followed the pastors.....their perception of me changed.....one even said they seen a demon setting on my shoulder....needless to say....I left.....and for almost 4 years now.."the journey" just keeps getting better!!! At least with HIM it is...but the religious folk will continue in what they know....sadly..and stay distant...I was there once, so I love them anyway....This AG has now shut down...many are scattered.. and the pastors have moved on to another city....May our Lord continue to reveal to His body TRUTH!
Still being "de-programmed" as Shawnice says....Thanks for sharing
Blessings
Sista Sandy :)
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Permalink Reply by Marshall Diakon on -
in seminary-driven pastors & churches, it is common to find a hermeneutic of rules for interpretation that actually invent opportunity for error. The only reliable hermeneutic for Scripture comes in/from our Teacher: Christ, by His Spirit. He is the means by which 3000 along with the disciples and many more are all in/of one mind, one accord.
Salvatore Vavalle said:I'm having a hard time in my church because of it lately. When I state something that the pastor in charge doesn't agree with because it is not what he learned in school, I get told that I just want to teach contrary to Scripture as if I'm a non-believer or something.
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Permalink Reply by Frank on
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Thanks for your interesting comments Paula.
The main problem with church is that the minute the saints get together, even in a home group, they start looking around at each other and saying, "who is going to lead?" For goodness sake, why don't we grow up!
There is no wonder that domineering leaders, and domineering systems come forth. The sheep are just plain lazy. There is a saying which is applicable to the USA, UK, and the church. When you have a population of sheep, it begats a government of wolves. That is where we are in our respective nations, and in the church.
God spoke to me that the church has done exactly what the Israelites did with Samuel. We want someone else to rule rather than God.
1Sam8v5. "Give us a king like all the nations". What did God say in reply when Samuel went and told him. "They have not rejected you, they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them".
This is the church today, we are guilty of demanding kings to rule over us instead of seeking the King of Kings. Most pastors act like kings. Many would indignantly deny this accusation, but just see what happens if someone crosses them. They will go straight to their hierarchical status as pastor to silence you.
When Israel demanded a King, God sent a warning to them, that the king appointed would tax them to the hilt, rob them blind, and enslave them etc. He also said to them that if they came running to Him with complaint about the behaviour of the king, He would not hear them! 1Sam8.v1-20
Nevertheless they persisted in their demand so God gave them Saul.
To understand what is happening to the church you should read the whole of 1Sam8 continuing to where David eventually becomes king.
As you will see it is all about the battle of anointing versus authority. What do you choose?
Saul was anointed with the Holy Spirit, but despite starting well he soon began to slip into disobedience. There then came a confrontation with Samuel (1Sam15) where the anointing is taken away from Saul because of his rebellion, and placed on another.
Saul did not choose to be king. In fact he drew the short straw! Nevertheless he was the best man in the whole of Israel, but still flawed. We then see God anoint David, and David kills Goliath etc.
This is where it gets interesting from the church perspective.-
We have a man, Saul, with all authority (the army is all the authority Saul needed to get his will done!), but no anointing,
We have a man, David, with all anointing, but no authority (no army and few friends)
Saul, the man with the authority of an army, kills all the priests and then is chasing all over the land to kill David, the man with the anointing.
The lesson for today?
Authority always seeks to destroy anointing!
Leadership will always be anathema to anointing. This is true even in a seemingly spirit led church. This is because God never intended any believer to subject his own God given anointing to hierarchical appointed authority. It has no biblical basis.
Yes many church leaders seem to encourage members to move in their anointing, but there is always a point where they will call a halt. This is particularly true if you move beyond the leader's own experience as it threatens their status. That leader will soon call on his authority position to crush your anointing just like Saul.
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Permalink Reply by Sandy McCoy- Foust on
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Paula......so sorry you have went thru all this....
You must hear God for yourself.. .I am not sure what to tell you....I can tell you a little about me...I have been out of the Religious System for 4 years now...and I don't really desire to go back into one...My husband and I recently moved to the country in Georgetown OH...close to Cincinnati...We have visited a little church down the road called "CHRISTIAN CHURCH". I kinda liked that as it was not a "denomination"...which I feel divides the body of Christ. My husband was wanting to go..so we went...I do like connecting with the body...and believe we are supposed to. I no longer believe we are under the Old Covenant Law...but New Covenant/Grace. And much of the Institutional Church is Law based. Its hard to find one that believes it was finished at the cross...that its not about DOING Church...but BEING Church....That pastor did come see us....we like him...and the people....but I guess my focus nowaday is just Jesus...and wherever He leads..I don't want to be tied down to 1 building.. Its not about joining a building or institution...but being IN Christ wherever you are...We have a spiritual family we meet with in homes as well...but it is not a ritual ..an every Saturday or Sunday thing...I get on this site and gracehope.com...listen to Joseph Prince... Paul White...and others on TV..or internet.... to stay built up and connect with the body...all over the world...
The Lord is showing us a lot in just the nature around us...The birds of the air...The hills ...the river..the woods and all the animals......I was at the Church whenever the doors were open...I thought I had to be...while family relations around me were crumbling....HE told me to "simplify"...
What a treasure we have found...Surrounded with His Glory!!
This is where I am....and I am loving the journey and freedom HE has blessed us with....Just ask our Lord to guide you...Put your trust in HIM...and not the pastor or people...cause He is the only one who will never let you down
Be Blessed Paula
Sandy :)
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Permalink Reply by Sandy McCoy- Foust on
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Great again Frank!!...See Paula....you can learn from others on here...without the headache of the religious system!!...God is moving outside the 4 walls!!...and Frank is right on here!
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Permalink Reply by Salvatore Vavalle on
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Frank, I agree completely with you. I believe it is a pharisitical mindset, which is more of a borderline cultic and control centered way for people to be "guided" into what to believe in or see from the Scriptures.
I'm a "baby Christian" by some people's standards in my faith. I originally came to know the Lord because I was trying to reconcile a marriage by getting religion into my life. I was born an Italian Roman Catholic and had some relatives who had been Jehovah's Witnesses for over 30 years now who were more "devout and pious" than most of the Catholics I knew. That is what led me to study with the Jay Dubs. Ironically, I didn't want to know anything about Jesus during all of this time. I had some Pentecostal friends who would tell me that the Jay Dubs were crazy and were guided by the devil from one side while the Jay Dubs were doing the same from the other, so I finally agreed to study with both faiths while not really wanting to know about Christ. To be honest with you, I am glad that it happened that way because the way that the Lord gifted me (and all Italians, I think. lol), He made me HAVE to find out about the stuff written in the Bible on my own in order for me to argue any one of these guys and know what either one of them was talking about. So I started reading the Word from the beginning because I still didn't want to know about Jesus. It took me a year of studying with both sects on different days until Easter came around and the whole Jesus issue came to a head for me and the denominations. Ironically, I landed on the Gospels and the big discussion was about whether I should drink the wine and eat the bread right around that time too.
Well, to make a long story short. My earthly marriage didn't work but my heavenly marriage to Christ was brimming with life and that relationship was restored by Him. He, through His Spirit, and His Word, got me through the false ideologies that were taught to me in the faith. The same way I searched the Scriptures when I was in the "cults" as our brethren call it, I still studied them while I was in the truth. I tested the Pastor and everyone in else by the Word. In the beginning, my pastor praised me for how i came to know the Lord and my searching for Him in that manner. So when I started to find things that weren't jiving with my understanding of the faith compared to what the Scriptures presented, that is when the same pharistical mindset came into play. "Don't question what the Scriptures mean." "Don't think too much." "If you search OUTSIDE of what WE believe, you might lose faith."
Believe it, or not, I actually struggled in my faith BECAUSE of my listening to that for some time because I was challenged by some pagan friends about some of the practices in Christendom and was discouraged to try to reconcile this. All that time I kept on thinking about what I was told and thought that is was the biggest bunch of bull I've ever heard and was starting to look into the Scriptures again when a former Jay Dub told me about your book. Brother, that book is SO dead on that it can't even begin to scratch the surface of how these false doctrines, teachings, ideologies, and practices polluted the the Body of the Lord Jesus Christ.Now, I get looked at as a heretic (or worse) from everyone and even the pastor marked me someone who is lost and not worthy of listening to. Kind of funny because when I was "serving the church," and being the most impersonal fake in the church, I was a genuine follower as opposed to now where I'm an "un-schooled", "carnally" minded believer who is drifting from the true faith.Talk about a bunch of Scriptural acrobatics to even consider a believer in Christ as a non-believer in the faith by using 1 Cor. 2:14. It is no different than what the Pharisee did to the regular lower class follower of Christ into letting go of their individuality in Christ.
Continued...
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Permalink Reply by Jim London on
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This may be helpful to some in this blog thread who are processing what leadership might look like:
http://www.simplechurch.com/video/upsidedown-leadership
Blessings.
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