Oh look! It's a...a demon. Great.
I'm not kidding. Wondering who out there has had to deal with people who are "demonized" or harassed by tormenting spirits. I personally see this ministry all throughout the new testament and without question have encountered people who could use a good...prayer of deliverance.
I've some experience with it in the past, mostly good. Wondering how this issue has been addressed and dealt with in a home church setting. Resources? Thoughts. Love to hear it.
Thanks and no I'm not crazy. Been through deliverance myself once, AFTER I was saved and it was a great experience.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Frank on -
Sorry Mindy not Mandy.
You can call me Frink or Frunk in revenge!
Frank said:Mandy,
The reason for the Lord's apparently negative response to Paul's cry is simple. In fact you and your current walk demonstrate the very same thing, you are a fighter!
Paul's problem, the thorn in the flesh, was an angel of Satan, a demon! It was not a sickness as many preachers maintain, always telling the church that God does not necessarily want to heal us. Being a demonic issue, as such it is OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO CAST IT OUT. We are never called to pray or plead a demon out, we are warriors and it is our duty, in obedience to God to drive it out.
God had empowered Paul, and also us, with his own GRACE, and that GRACE gave sufficient power and position to enable Paul to do what was required. This is the same grace that David possessed when he slaughtered Goliath. Pleading with God, even three times, to do something that he has commanded us to do, just won't work. God makes it plain that he will ignore us.
"Sorry lads, that's your job!" Thus says the Lord.
I have never seen any cross references for the following verses in a bible but there should be.-
Numbers33v55. But if you will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall come to pass that those whom you let remain of them shall become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein you dwell. (sounds familiar?)
v56 Moreover, it shall come to pass that I shall do to you as I thought to do to them! (Wow!)
Can you comprehend the significance of this? Paul was quoting the OT.
As I wrote in a previous comment, individually or collectively, we are effectively real estate. When we surrender to the Lord a new throne is established, and the old displaced, but it is our job to clear the land.
To understand deliverance, we need to read God's commands in the OT about possessing the land!
Mindy Wood said:Personally? I'm dealing with witchcraft! It's really thick in central Oklahoma but I can see it now and how it's been in EVERY single church I've been in...some worse than others, some so bad it's shipwrecked them. So every morning I'm on my feet, praying over my mind, my family, and feeling better for it. I have a LOT of questions. Where does the sovereignty of God and the authority we have in Christ intersect? Paul had a thorn in his flesh that Christ REFUSED to deliver him from *a messenger of Satan no less* and yet, we see him casting out demons, healing people of their own thorns, etc. It's interesting. Almost confusing.
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Permalink Reply by Jim London on
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Frank, I'd like to make an appeal to you. I do so knowing that my own history includes many changes in my understanding concerning several topics. Saying that a matter is "clearly proven by the plain reading of the scriptures that I quote" is much the sort of view that I have held in the past, to my regret. I've done my share of quoting a verse to support views that I now believe to be groundless. I have manipulated scripture. I've done what I believe I see in your saying that the Numbers verse is related to Paul's affliction because the verse has the word "thorn" in it. I thinks it's far from a plain reading.
Here's my appeal: Ask God to show you how to read the Bible. And make it a long-time asking. Inquire how He wants to participate in your reading. Consistent declare your need for His help is reading rightly, by the illumination of His Spirit. Even be willing to forsake "plain reading" in exchange for His reading.
Frank said:
Marshall, I started to write a reply defending my comment, but then deleted it.
Why should I have to reiterate what my comment says when it is clearly proven by the plain text of the scriptures I quote.
It is up to you to demonstrate clearly why you oppose my view, rather than just insulting me with, a "teaching of demons".
Frank.
Marshall Diakon said:
Frank, to propose that Paul's thorn in the flesh was a demonic possession, there is a very steep hill for you to climb. What you propose here is regarded as a "teaching of demons" UNLESS/UNTIL it can be soundly proven in examples from the New Testament writings AND in direct support from the same.
Also, "Sorry lads, that's your job!" Thus says the Lord. is understood by saints as to be speaking against the character of our Lord. You indeed have a high bar to cross here.
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Permalink Reply by Frank on
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Jim, I have spent over thirty years doing just that which is exactly why I said what I said and don't retract it.
It was not just the word "thorn" it was the same spiritual principle behind the Numbers text and what Paul taught throughout.
Jim London said:Frank, I'd like to make an appeal to you. I do so knowing that my own history includes many changes in my understanding concerning several topics. Saying that a matter is "clearly proven by the plain reading of the scriptures that I quote" is much the sort of view that I have held in the past, to my regret. I've done my share of quoting a verse to support views that I now believe to be groundless. I have manipulated scripture. I've done what I believe I see in your saying that the Numbers verse is related to Paul's affliction because the verse has the word "thorn" in it. I thinks it's far from a plain reading.
Here's my appeal: Ask God to show you how to read the Bible. And make it a long-time asking. Inquire how He wants to participate in your reading. Consistent declare your need for His help is reading rightly, by the illumination of His Spirit. Even be willing to forsake "plain reading" in exchange for His reading.
Frank said:
Marshall, I started to write a reply defending my comment, but then deleted it.
Why should I have to reiterate what my comment says when it is clearly proven by the plain text of the scriptures I quote.
It is up to you to demonstrate clearly why you oppose my view, rather than just insulting me with, a "teaching of demons".
Frank.
Marshall Diakon said:
Frank, to propose that Paul's thorn in the flesh was a demonic possession, there is a very steep hill for you to climb. What you propose here is regarded as a "teaching of demons" UNLESS/UNTIL it can be soundly proven in examples from the New Testament writings AND in direct support from the same.
Also, "Sorry lads, that's your job!" Thus says the Lord. is understood by saints as to be speaking against the character of our Lord. You indeed have a high bar to cross here.
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Permalink Reply by Mindy Wood on -
I am content to realize that some things may never be known. Paul wasn't specific, perhaps for a good reason. It's clear we won't know all or see clearly this side of heaven. I don't know. I suppose I can only be led by the Spirit of God in His Word and fight everything that comes my way...demon or sin. Whatever the thorn was, Paul never gave up fighting it and even said he would fight it until his death if necessary: "who will deliver me from this body of death? Oh thank God. He will!"
Weakness and the subjection to temptation is part of what keeps us needing him, creating a humility in us and a sign for the rest of the world that's it's Christ in us making the difference. HE is perfect, not we.
We also need to note in this discussion that possession is NOT the correct interp, which I'm not sure everyone knows should be better termed as harassed, oppressed, or demonized. I think Paul could have easily been harassed by a demonic spirit (it does say a messenger of satan, hello??) but it doesn't mean he was possessed in the sense of being a schizo. AND take into account this: what is the fundamental purpose for someone to be harassed by a wicked spirit? To lead them into sin and away from God. SIN is all they got! That's what destroys us all.
So. Really, just speculation here, I believe a demonic spirit was harassing or aggravating Paul to tempt him into some kind of sin (he does seem to mention pride), otherwise why would it bother Paul at all? What else would that spirit try to do? Throw him off a cliff? I don't think so.
I don't know. I just know that it's funny to me that everyone seems to have one particular life-long vice their whole lives. Mine is pride. Someone else's could be fear, another envy, another lust, another greed....I don't know. It's conquered for awhile but it always tries to come back up. It always humbles me when it does! Paul's struggle obviously KEPT him humble and that's what bugs me about the faith movement/deliverance ministry movement is the idea that we're never supposed to deal with anything that is uncomfortable or undesirable.
For example: God does love to bless His people BUT would He do so at the loss of their souls to eternal damnation? He would no more give them a million dollars and make their lives perfect than I would give my 12 year kid who has seizures a brand new motorcycle. It would kill him. Maybe a trouble free, harassment free life would spell disaster for us. He is always watching over our souls!
At least, I think that's why Paul remained in his battle his whole life. Whatever the battle was may NOT be the point at all....
Think of God's great satisfaction of seeing His son and daughter refuse to give in to what they want because they love Him, come back to Him each time they fail...because they love Him, strive for obedience and holiness...because they love Him. That's deeeeeppp folks.
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Permalink Reply by Marshall Diakon on -
thank you, Mindy, for these thoughts from the heart.
From Acts 16, Paul knew what it was like to be harassed by a demon's activities.
Would a messenger of Satan be given access to bring pain or grief/distress to the flesh (as would a thorn)? Many are giving testimony to this... not just for Paul.
If God should turn His temple, these flesh temples, over to a messenger Satan, then ichabod: the glory has departed. I'm not suggesting that He would never, ever do this... the temple of wood & stone was turned over to the nations and given over to perverse things.
There are many today, not yet completing the new birth, who lay rightful claim to being demonized. With the broad use of the label "Christian", the mind of others can draw a picture of flesh-temples filled with perverse & wicked things. Vile depictions of new covenant priests are an allusion; a specter, inserted by intent to berate Christ in His glory.
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Permalink Reply by Mindy Wood on
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I think that trials come in many forms, through many methods. Demonic or flesh...it's a trial not necessarily and "handing over" to them. When we're handed over to the enemy it's always because we've refused to repent or struggle against those things to be free. In Romans 2 they were handed over to a reprobate mind...because they refused to see, hear, and repent.
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Permalink Reply by Frank on
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Marshall, are you saying that a Christian cannot be demonised, cannot have a demon within him?
Marshall Diakon said:thank you, Mindy, for these thoughts from the heart.
From Acts 16, Paul knew what it was like to be harassed by a demon's activities.
Would a messenger of Satan be given access to bring pain or grief/distress to the flesh (as would a thorn)? Many are giving testimony to this... not just for Paul.
If God should turn His temple, these flesh temples, over to a messenger Satan, then ichabod: the glory has departed. I'm not suggesting that He would never, ever do this... the temple of wood & stone was turned over to the nations and given over to perverse things.
There are many today, not yet completing the new birth, who lay rightful claim to being demonized. With the broad use of the label "Christian", the mind of others can draw a picture of flesh-temples filled with perverse & wicked things. Vile depictions of new covenant priests are an allusion; a specter, inserted by intent to berate Christ in His glory.
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Permalink Reply by Mindy Wood on
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Thanks for sharing that William. Wow. Awesome.
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Permalink Reply by Marshall Diakon on
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William, your report to the glory of God also reminds how "saved" is not about a particular event in time; rather God is saving us in Christ.
Giving thanks to God for rescuing you!
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Permalink Reply by Marshall Diakon on
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William, look again at the language of the New Testament writings...
Acts 2:21; 16:31 "shall be saved"
Acts 2:47 "those who were being saved"
Acts 11"14 "will be saved"
Romans 5:9,10 "we shall be saved"
Romans 10:13 "will be saved"
I Corinthians 1:18 "us who are being saved" ....
While we "have been sanctified" (past tense), our salvation is completed in the Final Day of Christ.
What you surely received out of your initial repentance is the assurance of salvation, which comes from God.
Truly, Christ has become our hope of/to salvation; even as our "helmet". [I Thessalonians 5:8]
If our salvation were fully consummated in a yesterday, where would be faith and hope today?
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Permalink Reply by Frank on
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William, Marshall,
May I intervene here, (a little tongue in cheek if that's ok).
I believe that the word "saved" is very confusingly used by the church. If I was asked to take sides, I would have to side with Marshall, which is grievous on 2 points.
1) Marshall and I were on different sides of an argument back in April, see above! (Sorry Marshall)
2) I ought to side with William cos he's a fellow Brit.
Unfortunately neither are valid reasons.
William, would you try using "Born again" as a better description instead instead of "saved". Does that still fit?
Most Christians mix the two, but they are different in exactly the way Marshall describes.
Salvation can generally be regarded as having three tenses. I was saved, I am being saved, I will be saved. We were obviously first saved when we surrendered and were born again, and because of that we are constantly being saved from this world's ways, and when our time is finally up we will be saved into the presence of the Lord.
We would all agree that God never changes. If that is so we should look at the word "saved" in the Old Testament. Saved in the OT invariably meant deliverance from Philistine, famine, and plague. In the OT "saved" was not about heaven when we die. It was about today. God never changes!Being delivered from demonic powers, like deliverance from the Philistines, is part of our present tense salvation process.
And to add to the score, my wife and I have just returned at 11pm from an evening out, and checking my emails etc. I saw these latest comments.
Our evening was spent with a wonderful lady of 78 years who has been a faithful believer for the majority of that time. Our purpose was delivering her from a whole load of powers which had demonised her since childhood. This was the second major session, and some of them really rattled her teeth and violently resisted being cast out. Nevertheless she had a mighty deliverance so far. There is still more to come, but we are close to the end and she is greatly encouraged.
She is distressed as to why she has never had this sort of help before in any of the churches she attended. As she said, none of them really believe in demons, so the demons carry on controlling people.
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Permalink Reply by Mindy Wood on
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Marshal and Frank, wow. That totally makes sense. Work "out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling." Indeed! How have you guys gone about deliverance ministry? With a couple of saints as back up? With pre-determined prayers and declarations? In your home, their home? I know this is an aspect of reconciliation that we HAVE to delve into. I'm just not feeling very confidant we should take it on and I really want to cart them off to a ministry in Oklahoma City where they perform deliverance sessions. What say ye, gentlemen?
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