Open Message to Jon, Tony, Felicity, et. al.
Hi Jon, Tony & Felicity -
I don't like to make assumptions, but I'm guessing that you're aware of the issue that's arisen, over the subject of the salvation of all ... (or UR, or "universalism", etc.), in the posts that I and others have shared.
These discussions can be read in the following threads:
http://simplechurch.ning.com/forum/topics/2303672:Topic:21299
http://simplechurch.ning.com/forum/topics/simple-church-and-universal
http://simplechurch.ning.com/forum/topics/the-jerome-conspiracy
http://simplechurch.ning.com/forum/topics/is-there-a-place-for-the
Some have called for the "doctrine police" to come forth, to declare this to be heresy, and thus dealt with by the list owners ... others are wishing for moderators to restrain what I'm sharing. Some want me gone (reading between the lines), while others want me to stay, only to not discuss my views on either salvation or eschatology.
I realize that this forum is a social network, and as such is not moderated ... I realize that it's the hope of many that adults who know Jesus could discuss just about anything in love, respect, and maturity... that unity could prevail even without enforced unanimity.
I'm making this a public statement, as it's become a public issue.
Jon (and/or Tony and/or Felicity):
While I realize this forum is not moderatred, and I doubt you want to be dragged into every issue, I'm asking you openly if you believe that I am causing harm to this forum, to your vision for this forum, or if my posts, and my views, should cease.
If it's your opinion that I should either stop sharing my views, or stop posting here altogether, simply say the word, and I will agreeably abide by your wishes. AND, I will also remain in unity with all of you, regardless of your decision...! ;)
I look forward to your response - thanks!
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."
"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."
"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
I don't like to make assumptions, but I'm guessing that you're aware of the issue that's arisen, over the subject of the salvation of all ... (or UR, or "universalism", etc.), in the posts that I and others have shared.
These discussions can be read in the following threads:
http://simplechurch.ning.com/forum/topics/2303672:Topic:21299
http://simplechurch.ning.com/forum/topics/simple-church-and-universal
http://simplechurch.ning.com/forum/topics/the-jerome-conspiracy
http://simplechurch.ning.com/forum/topics/is-there-a-place-for-the
Some have called for the "doctrine police" to come forth, to declare this to be heresy, and thus dealt with by the list owners ... others are wishing for moderators to restrain what I'm sharing. Some want me gone (reading between the lines), while others want me to stay, only to not discuss my views on either salvation or eschatology.
I realize that this forum is a social network, and as such is not moderated ... I realize that it's the hope of many that adults who know Jesus could discuss just about anything in love, respect, and maturity... that unity could prevail even without enforced unanimity.
I'm making this a public statement, as it's become a public issue.
Jon (and/or Tony and/or Felicity):
While I realize this forum is not moderatred, and I doubt you want to be dragged into every issue, I'm asking you openly if you believe that I am causing harm to this forum, to your vision for this forum, or if my posts, and my views, should cease.
If it's your opinion that I should either stop sharing my views, or stop posting here altogether, simply say the word, and I will agreeably abide by your wishes. AND, I will also remain in unity with all of you, regardless of your decision...! ;)
I look forward to your response - thanks!
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."
"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."
"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
Views: 6
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Tammie on -
Hi Dena,
I'm not part of the SimpleChurch board but since they seem to be busy I'd like to offer a suggestion.
I have stated that I am against moderating doctrine but Dena, maybe you should consider for the sake of unity and peace on this site that you need to moderate yourself.
Sean, as an example has mentioned his beliefs that differ from most here but he does not go on and on every chance he gets trying to convince everyone to see the truth everyone else has missed.
Why don't you start a group here and invite anyone interested to join and discuss UR and Preterism rather than proselytize on multiple threads on the forum?
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Permalink Reply by Marion Clark Ingram on
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I am in total agreement with the solution given here while loving
Dena dearly. In God, there is always a peaceful and viable remedy,
Isn't there?
Blessings,
Marion
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Permalink Reply by Marshall Diakon on -
Solutions proposed that invite separate, while with us, are not far from remedies that first introduced denominational partitions to church history. They're temporary solutions, and they may actually prolong the difficulty.
While differences/variations can even be instructive, a systematic theology dependent upon them is not. One way to describe the need may be: please refrain from a god-package push... much as the self-moderation that Tammie has described above.
I'm suggesting that we not actively seek to segregate or switch-off Dena's (or, anyone's) zeal. What she has come to believe (or may come to believe) deserves a right and loving answer. We have been chosen by God to be available for these very things. And, it may be helpful to add substance by traveling to Dena's home --- seeing her in person --- in manner where love is best shared. Joy in discovery and in reconciliation, for those who love God.
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Permalink Reply by Tammie on
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Marshall,
Has anyone told you you're really hard to understand? Do you talk that way in real life?
Your solution is we all show up at Dena's door?
Marshall Diakon said:Solutions proposed that invite separate, while with us, are not far from remedies that first introduced denominational partitions to church history. They're temporary solutions, and they may actually prolong the difficulty.
While differences/variations can even be instructive, a systematic theology dependent upon them is not. One way to describe the need may be: please refrain from a god-package push... much as the self-moderation that Tammie has described above.
I'm suggesting that we not actively seek to segregate or switch-off Dena's (or, anyone's) zeal. What she has come to believe (or may come to believe) deserves a right and loving answer. We have been chosen by God to be available for these very things. And, it may be helpful to add substance by traveling to Dena's home --- seeing her in person --- in manner where love is best shared. Joy in discovery and in reconciliation, for those who love God.
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Permalink Reply by Marshall Diakon on
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Tammie said:
"Your solution is we all show up at Dena's door?"
Not possible. I know the Dallas, Oregon, area. We could not all get in there, I should say!
Sorry... I'm breaking out with sillies as to picture this joyfully.
Thank you, Tammie.
I'm not suggesting a particular solution, while remaining very positive on reconciliation. Please consider Dena beyond this forum. And, for yourselves/ourselves, too. Wouldn't hurt a few of us a bit to stand in the Oregon rain for a couple minutes, for the sake of love.
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Permalink Reply by Marshall Diakon on
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Claudia said:
Marshall, Sorry Brother, but I agree with Tammie. Your little spiel sounded like a college professor reading from a book, and I almost didn't get it.... Humbly simple is prudent sometimes, especially in tender subjects as we are addressing right now... although I appreciate much of what you share.. truly.
Thank you, Claudia. It has long been apparent to me that not everything I write is for everyone. Thanks be to God, I have no college-level training. But, let's best stay with Dena... May it be that God will put upon hearts to do.
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Permalink Reply by Linden on -
Kenton Sorenson said:Jon, Tony & Felicity -
Yes, please rescue us from all this ultimate reconciliation proselytizing. It's like purgatory on earth. I'm weeping and gnashing my teeth. The torment is never ending.
But seriously, let's not let the devil (may he burn forever) get a foothold here and spread this nonsense and ruin this beautiful web site.
Kenton
Hi Kenton,
I have to agree. I would like to show grace but as I said before I have seen Dena takeover and ruin 2 other sites. What do we do with people who take advantage of the love and grace given and continue to use it to abuse and proselytize? Where do e draw the line?
Obviously the Dales are happy with the situation as their lack of response seems to speak volumes.
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Permalink Reply by Dale Interactive on -
Hey Folks,
Sorry for our delay in getting back to you. I've been on vacation in Mexico with my wife and parents, so we didn't see this discussion until today. We'll be taking a look at the situation and posting our response soon.
Thanks to everyone who is taking part in the community here.
Jon
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on -
Linden said:
I have to agree. I would like to show grace but as I said before I have seen Dena takeover and ruin 2 other sites. What do we do with people who take advantage of the love and grace given and continue to use it to abuse and proselytize? Where do e draw the line?
You've made such claims elsewhere, and did not respond when I asked you to provide evidence for your charges.
Where have I taken over other sites (which two)? What sites did I take over and "ruin"?
Please do not be so unkind as to make accusations without backing them up.
Obviously the Dales are happy with the situation as their lack of response seems to speak volumes.
You have judged the Dales wongly. Your statement is unkind and untrue.
Shalom, Dena
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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Nik said:
Dena,
As one who has been there myself, I ask you to consider how permeable your boundaries are. One sure sign that you have crossed the boundary is getting "beat-up" in things that are not your business. Others push back when you have invaded their boundaries.
I will indeed consider that -- my desire and goal is for a lifetime of continued healing. Thank you.
Feeling misunderstood all the time and way-over-sharing in order to get others to understand you perfectly is another sign that you don't understand where you end and they begin.
The understanding I've spoken of is due to my posts being glossed over, and then questions being asked about things I already shared. I'm not speaking of a deeper level of "understanding" my soul ... LOL, I hardly expect that to occur in a message forum...! My nature is to share prolifically, on any topic. I do so on a number of forums. Perhaps it's less pathological, and more personality...?
Or, do you have me all figured out..? ;)
Pain is a wonderful teacher, but I think you have the wrong lesson in mind. We can all too easily use our theology to justify our co-dependency. . . to love those who are hurting you, no matter how they treat you, and to try to move towards them again (inside-out) is dangerous unless we are armored with proper boundaries. You are right that this is not a battle in the flesh but in your spirit.
To love those who are hurting me (whether inadvertently, as we humans tend to do, or intentionally, as we also lash back when threatened in some way), is modeled and taught by Jesus. It's just a remote possibility that I'm following Him in that...
Dena, you have shared your struggle with bulimia and that is an addictive issue. Though you may have given up controlling your weight or diet through bulimia, you have not fully surrendered your need to make things outside of you fit with the things inside of you. I am saying this in truth and love because I too have had to learn boundaries which I did not have as a child of an alcoholic. I am not perfect, the 12th step is a never-ending well of living water to which we must return.
I appreciate you sharing your insight, but I do not receive your indictment (underlined above). It sounds a bit like you may be projecting your own perspective onto me. I'm very willing to take that to Jesus -- my desire is for truth on every level. But, you are not equipped to make such jugments. Quite frankly, Nik, that seems rather like a boundary-invasion...
Everyone Else: I ask everyone else to keep this in mind as Dena posts. We are being more loving to her when we assert our boundaries lovingly but firmly because it will be a nurturing example. Instead of arguing, I am just going to say, "No, that's not right. But, I love you." She will experience what it is like to be loved by a community that flat-out tells her she is wrong and her need to drag us into agreement will lessen. (Unless this is a deeper psychiatric issue which we will not be able to solve, but we will all be happier not arguing.) As long as we argue over her, she is receiving the attention that reinforces it.
And, likewise, I now address "Everyone Else":
Because I'm very open and transparent about my own personal woundings in the past, that does not mean that I'm any more wounded than any of you are -- all humans are wounded. None of us got the unconditional love and complete acceptance we were designed to need while growing up -- even the best-intentioned parents couldn't possibly provide that, and many of us had far less than the best-intentioned parents, as well as other relationships/circumstances that have wounded us. To label me as "the wounded one" is highly judgmental and dismissive.
I'm here like the rest of you, sharing what's on my heart, sharing what I've come to believe. The same thing the rest of you are doing. Because you don't like what I'm sharing, because it doesn't fit with what's become the commonly accepted and prevailing views, that's no reason to use my transparency against me, and to thus dismiss and silence me.
As Marshall was saying (& yes, I understood him fine -- you did a great job of articulating, Marshall...! ;) ), what y'all are attempting to do is to set up yet another denomination -- controlled and approved by human beings. Alternatively, as Nik here proposes, is the idea of putting me in some sort of probation-position ... to treat me as a project to work on, again, the goal being to silence what I'm saying.
Everything I'm sharing here is in keeping with the Apostle's Creed, as well as fitting within the teachings of the early Church. There were all manner of divergent views, all the way back to the beginning (see Peter and Paul), and yet they learned how to be in unity without the requirement of unanimity. Even Augustine, who opposed the teaching of UR (ultimate reconciliation, or universal redemption, i.e., universal salvation of all through Jesus), spoke of the UR adherents as "tenderhearts", and acknowledged that they came to their views without denying Scripture.
I have not denied the deity and Lordship of Jesus; I have upheld the belief that there is NO salvation found outside of Him. If I am guilty of anything, it's in magnifying the effect of the Atonement -- as I believe that He was as victorious as He set out to be, as the Savior of the World.
I have come to these conclusions through studying the Scriptures, apart from the traditions of man. I take literal verses literally, and metaphorical verses metaphorically, and I believe what they reveal.
I share what I believe with great passion and excitement -- and yes, I'm a prolific writer, and I type fast, and I enjoy connecting with others, face to face, and online. I share who I am, past, present, and future hopes ... I don't hide my past, I don't hide my feelings, I don't hold back my opinions.
This doesn't make me pathological -- this makes me a fellow human being who's in process, progressing from my own faulty perspectives, to His perspectives, having my mind renewed, just one of millions on a journey, sharing what I see, as I see it, as it unfolds for me, subject to change, due to His continuing revelation of who He is, and what He's done for us all.
If I irk the snot out of y'all -- ignore me...! ;)
Shalom (with all that it means), Dena
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Permalink Reply by Linden on
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hmmm. Well if I have misjudged anyone thats between me and them. Its really no one elses business. I don't think I have. They show there lack of concern by first setting up a website with no oversite or moderation. Then, not only this time, but in the recent past not responding to issues until they are much bigger than they should have been.
I wonder how they would react if this group were part of the group that meets in their home and this confrontation happened in their living room? Would they have done nothing? If you have a group that meets in your home do you go away and leave them on there own?
There are responsible ways of having this type of site, but as we have witnessed just leaving people to themselves does not always work.
Just the way Dena worded her original post on this thread shows she wants to create conflict. She obviously wants to put the owners of this site in a very bad position.
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Permalink Reply by Linden on
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Rick Knock said:Dena Brehm said:
Dena,If I irk the snot out of y'all -- ignore me...!
That's the problem. You won't let us. No matter where we go, there you are. No matter how many times you've told us, you continue to tell us again and again. Your doctrine is not the problem. Others share your doctrine and don't have a problem here. The problem is that you're pushy and rude. Many have tried to reason with you, but you won't give an inch. What you stated above is the attitude you display constantly - even if your words are syrup coated. You seem completely unwilling to even try to co-exist peacefully with those who don't agree with you. It's as if you won't stop until every knee has bowed to your doctrine.
I've watched you demean good sisters and brothers with your smug superiority and condescending attitude. Before you say you don't know what I'm talking about, yesterday you went to the feedback post and reminded all of us that that thread was for tech issues only. Hmmm... I let it go. Even though the thread title and description says it's also for feedback, I didn't respond to you. I figured it was just another case of Dena thinking she's the moderator and needs to instruct us.
Yes, we know. You used to see things as we do, but then you found the truth. If we don't agree with you it's because we just haven't arrived yet at where you are. We've heard it a hundred times already. We can't even bear the thought of having to hear it again. Please just stop.
God Bless!
Rick
AMEN!!!!! AMEN!!!!! AMEN!!!!! AMEN!!!!! AMEN!!!!! AMEN!!!!!
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