The Seventh Day Adventists make a good argument about the Sabbath.
I would say all of us find it common sense to keep all the commandments as a way to please God. Even people who feel Christ did away with the law will say that keeping the commandments do make sence even though keeping them will in no way will get anyone to heaven.
The Adventists do make a good argument that no where in the bible does God or Jesus change the day of the sabbath 'rest' from Saturday to Sunday. I know 'worship' is done on Sunday as a commemoration to Jesus resurrection on the first day of the week even though there is no scripture saying to worship on Sunday.
The reality that weakens the Adventist argument is no where did God specify a day of 'worship'. The forth commandment is specific that it is a day of 'rest'. Adventists tie rest and worship together as though worship is intertwined with the sabbath.
I will go this far as to say, Yea, we should push to take our day of rest on Saturday if we are to be true to the command but I find nothing wrong with worship on any other day of the week. Luckily, I have a Monday-Friday job with weekends off that I can rest on Saturday although I've been doing home stuff on Saturday and kicking back on Sunday taking 'a' sabbath day. It's not a rebellios thing out of spite to rest Sunday over Saturday. I'm at least making a point to take a kick back day.
Although my high focus is on loving God and loving my neighbor, it's obveous that stealing, murder, adultry, coveting, taking God's name in vain, etc. cannot be permissible with God and is worth the keeping. So I would think the sabbath or at minimum taking a day of rest some time within the 7 day time frame has importance also.
My next question would be that I don't see that God specified exactly what 6 days a person has to work so long as we rest after the 6th day. When it comes to hospital workers, could we imagin if they all took Saturday off? I guess there are things that could be brought up in an argument.
Ryan - "Take Cain killing Able prior to any law. Was there no consequences even though Cain was never told not to murder?"
if you read Genesis then you should know that the complete history is not there. only what is necessary for us to understand God's relationship to man. of course Cain had laws. how did they know about building an alter and giving sacrifices? God, surely gave laws to Adam (after the fall) and they were passed down. we dont know commandments or law given to them and dont need to know.
the nicolaitans (from book of Revelation) began a movement that said they could do any sin because of the law of liberty, which is probably why Paul spends alot of writing talking against that.
why would anyone be told to repent after they have salvation? (letters to the 7 churches) it is because we do have a responsibilty to be obiediant unto death to the commandments and a stewart of our lives (we are now slaves to Christ).
and also we always have a freedom of choice to stay in Christ or reject Him throughout our whole lives.
people get too caught up into denying works so they dont feel any guilt or responsibility. of course doing works does not "earn" you salvation, we get it. but doing no works it is abvious you have no salvation.
there are many things wrong with calvinism
salvation by faith alone is only mentioned 1 time in scripture. There it says the exact opposite. it says that a person is not justified by faith alone. James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only"
you must take all scriptures on a subject and base your beliefs thus. letting scriptures explain scriptures whenever possible and using easier to understand verses to help with harder to understand verses.
martin luther wanted to omit James from the bible because he did not understand the works being talked about there.
a good method to understand James is to read chapter James 2 and replace the word "words" with "obediance".
Abraham was justified by his obediance when he took his son to the alter to sacrific. do you think he would have been justified if he did not do it??? in the same way we are justified by our obediance, not by doing good deeds (works).
so it is faith + obediance = justification and not faith (alone)
Obedience is good but there seems to be some equivocation here about the laws we’re supposed to be obeying. The Law of Moses is not the same as the Law of Christ. The Gospel wasn’t about following Mosaic Law in general and did not include a Sabbath - not the Jewish Sabbath and not some pseudo-Christian, semi-Sabbath Sunday.
Claude, a brother
Claude - who are you talking to?
A discussion in which unspecified laws are referenced. It’s a long way from any law to Mosaic Law – the one to which the Adventists refer.
The adventists try to break up the law of Moses into 2 seperate laws (ceremonial, moral) and claim the commandments in the first part was temporary and done away but the other part (moral commandments) is still with us. the OT does not make this distinction and neither does the NT.
it is one thing if you do not understand that we are not under the OT commandments and want to talk to adventists, then your gonna have lots of problems talking against their "good aurgument".
but if you understand that we are not under any part of the law of Moses then you need to direct your aurguments towards that end to the adventists.
they will say the ceremonial law is what Moses wrote but the 10 commandments were written by the finger of God. in Gal 5:3-4 Paul says if you keep any of the law you are obligated to keep all the law. Gal 3:10 he quotes from Deu 27:26 which specifically talks about curses when not keeping the 10 commandments. There is no distinction of the law of Moses being 2 seperate laws.
the sabbath was not introduced before Moses - Neh 9:13-14
Ezek 20:12 sabbaths were a sign between the jews and God. there were several sabbaths held annually throughout the yr.
2 Cor 3:7,11 the ministry of death (law of Moses) engraved on stones (10 commandments) are passing away.
the whole concept is this. everything in the OT points towards Christ and His first coming. Christ fullfills all the laws, feasts, holy days, prophecies etc. Now that Christ is come, why are we looking back to the pre-Christ items? we have the new covenant with Christ which is a better covenant, a new system, a different system, a different priesthood etc etc.
what the adventists does not get is this concept. its like you go to school for 12 yrs and graduate and then later say your going to 6th grade. you have already graduated so why would you go back to 6th grade??? the old covenant was for the purpose of bringing in Christ, now that we have Christ why would you go back to the old covenant???
just like the parables of the 2 garments and 2 wines they look to take the parts of the old covenant and patch it with the new covenant. 2 garments - they are incompatible. the new garment (patch) is unshrunken and if you use it to patch the old garment then when it shrinks it will tear it and make it worse. this is what adventist do. the old and new wine - each yr you had to recondition the wineskin to accept the new wine so it would not tear. in the same way we empty ourselves of the old covenant and recondition ourselves for the new covenant. really for the wines it is the concept that it is a new thing, a new covenant.
Do you put other god's before God? Do you make idols of them, bow and worship them? Do you purposely take God's name in vain? Do you work 7 days a week? Do you purposely dishonor your parents? Would you make plans and go murder someone? Do you steal from others and then lie about it? Are you thousands of dollars in debt because you got to have that next new hot item right now?
I kind of doubt you'd say 'yes' to any of these, minus maybe the debt thing for spending too much. I'm the only person I know who is honestly living debt free right now. You may say, "I'm not under the 10 commandments." yet your secretly keeping them. I suppose that is better than saying, "I keep the commandments." and secretly breaking them.
Even though you say we're not under the 10 commandments, don't you find value in them even not being a law weighing your mind? If I push others to keep the commandments, its for common sence reasons.
Don't go walking out in the snow bare-footed. As soft as fresh snow is, I can do this for about 10 seconds before the cold pain becomes unbearable. Fresh snow is softer than ant hills. You got to try it once but don't wander too far from the door. It will feel like cold water on a broken tooth that makes you want to rip your jaw off your face except that pain is in both your feet.
hmmmm, well I think we are under all the commandments under the new covenant.
1 John 5:21
No Corresponding Commandment
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
you seem to think there is no purpose in the whole plan of God throughout the full bible. there is a plan that started from the Genesis and go the full way through. it is the ultimate end in Christ.
when you look at the word translated in OT as "for ever" (aion) the word actually means "age lasting". the law of Moses was an "age lasting" covenant to a certain people for a period of time. we do not find this same covenant to people between Adam and Abraham. when you see a verse that says "perpetual" then that will mean it goes on and on - look up what is used for the rainbow covenant.
then when you see verse that say "for ever and ever" now you understand the it is saying for this age and beyond.
no God had forthought enough to give us every commandment we need in the new covenant. it is not a patch on the old covenant.
Doug Moore said:
1) Lord's Day
2) day Christ resurrected
3) single day of the week apostles and christians worshiped from 1st century on
4) day of the week by example to give to the church
5) day of the week to partake of the Lord's supper
I think I only agree with number 2.
1) I know there is a reference to this in NT but only because of 2
3) Surely they worshipped God every day! Oh you mean singing - well that didn't really come in until 11th century.
4) Nobody in the NT gave to the church! Giving was for poor people in the church.
5) They broke bread every day! I think they celebrated Jesus's death every time they ate together. There is no evidence love feasts (which included bread and wine) were on Sundays
Sorry to trample over your tradition! I've got no problem with it just that we need to separate it from Biblical practice!
yes I agree mostly with you. you can worship anytime, anyday.what I was pointing out is what is called the Lord's Day. and as some take it to be a sunday sabbath or a moved sabbath which it is not.
(1 Cor 16:2 KJV) Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
Hebrews 10:23-32 ... not giving up meeting together...
Acts 20:7; 1 Cor 10:16; 11:25-26
also early christian writers said they meet on 1 day sunday.
“But they maintained that their fault or error amounted to nothing more than this: they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day, before sunrise and reciting an antiphonal hymn to Christ as God, and binding themselves with an oath – not to commit any crime, …” -Pliny’s letter to Trajan
“If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death - Ignatius [A.D. 30-107.]
“And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, …” - Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.]
early christian writers were not inspired but they are consistant to scriptures. giving was to someone in the church that distributed it towards those needy. it does seem like each person gave directly to a needy person when this gathering and giving example is talked about. thou we have other commandments to give directly and help needy. we can do both.
but the principle comes from the support of the levits (priests) which is a foreshadowing of the church. we give to support the pasters and teachers in the church to further God's work. we give to support evangulists in far off places. in the OT they gave 10% tithe but in the NT we give as we prosper (not a manditory 10%). again we are also commanded to help and give outside of the church so that is appropreate too.
mainly with the Lord's Supper we are to do it in rememberance of Him (whenever we do it). by example the first century folks did that on sunday so thats good enough for me. if you want to do it more often or less then that is between you and God. we are under the law of liberty and not a strict legalistic command system so I have no problem with what you were saying.
oh yeah singing is also from first century
Ephesians 5:19-"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your hearts to the Lord." Colossians 3:16-"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."
Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19 were written to churches and were read as instructions to congregations.
James 5:13-"Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry let him sing psalms."
Matthew 26:30-"...and when they had sung an hymn, they went out unto the Mount of Olives." Acts 16:25-"And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God; and the prisoners heard them." Romans 15:9-"I will sing unto thy name." I Corinthians 14:15-"I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the understanding also." Hebrews 2:12-"Saying, I will declare thy name unto my bre- thren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee."
Hebrews 13:15-"By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of PRAISE TO GOD continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name." Romans 15:9-"And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles and SING UNTO THY NAME." Acts 16:25-"And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang PRAISES UNTO GOD: and the prisoners heard them."