Simple church and Apostolic church: A comparision

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Permalink Reply by vigel on December 20, 2009 at 11:01am

orthodoxyestad33 said:

Tammie said:

I think Vigel's point came across very clearly; what's not to understand? :)

Church does not teach the true gospelWhat Church? Is he saying no churches are teaching that or that just merely attending church does mean one is getting the whole Gospel? I may be dense, but is not the center of most Christian teaching "Christ crucified"? (Christ crucified) and which does not build faith in the true Word, and what/who does not build faith in the true Word? Going to Church? and that what? That ? If a writer is not clear on the beginning of the statement...?does not make the Bible as the sole reference and reference to live, but who taught "popular culture" and the message sweet message in my ear Babylon church congregation is a church that has been .. prosti...tuting themselves with the world and apart from Christ and His Word Is he saying that all Churches, and consequently all Christians who attend churches are prostituting themselves???

Is he is saying that all of Institutional Christianity is Babylon, or Just some, if so which ones? It sounds like he is saying that, and then it sounds like he is saying that it is not good to use only the Bible as a basis for faith???

Sorry, I don't mean to be dense or offensive. : /

best wishes in our Lord Jesus Christ.
about my writing in commentaries by brother orthodox. My emphasis of this paper is that the church should not similar to this world, and to preach the true gospel. because in this era there are many churches that his emphasis only to sacrifice, tithing, blessing and healing.
one command when the Lord Jesus Christ before he was lifted to the end of thy earth, baptizing them in the name of FATHER, SON, HOLY SPIRIT. and teaching them to observe what I teach. but there are many churches are afraid if the congregation left the church in other words they are afraid to send his congregation to leave. because if you dare to send any church congregation to go then I am confident and believe in this earth will be filled with His glory because all human beings on the face of this earth could the reach of the Gospel and know that Jesus Christ is Lord above all gods.
I say this because in fact many of his non-Christian countries that have never heard anyone JESUS. The simplest example; Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, India and many more.
try if from now on we are the church of Christ to realize this and begin to adopt a state / tribe and act to reach them ... then I believe that the prayers of our fathers that read thy will be done on earth as in heaven must occur for each of us .. God bless ....

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Permalink Reply by dena sanderson smith on January 27, 2010 at 3:18pm

Amen!

Randy W. Jordan said:

Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not {merely} look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with
God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:3-11

This pretty much precludes any hierarchy.

He who existed in the form and equal with God did not hold tightly to that position, but humbled Himself (this is chosen submission gained by love for the Father and for us, He was not forced). In fact He emptied Himself of the effluence of Glory that was His for all eternity to become a man, and not just a man, but a servant, a slave. But note it was a “Bond” slave. He was not sold to it, nor did He work for wages. His motivation was love for He whom He chose to serve and make master. His humility resulted in obedience to the will of the Father, an obedience that included the lowest form of death reserved for the common vile criminals.

That is the attitude we are to have toward one another. The one given example of by our head. The ain’t no hierarchy in it. None! And because of His leadership in this manner He is the only one now given preeminence.

Now if you can come to that kind of attitude and service in making yourself a living sacrifice (your reasonable service of worship Romans 12:1) by living under the Kingdom principle that submission is gained by love. Meaning, your submission is gladly given to His Lord and Headship because He has revealed the fullness of His love…. then the Kingdom principle of suffering and glory going hand in hand, and the Kingdom principle of humility and exaltation going hand in hand, will also be yours at the proper time. Because He willingly let go of His equality with God and humbled Himself, GOD HIGHLY EXALTED Him. God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Hierarchy only puffs up some while debasing others. It provides a basis for the stench of pride and self-promotion in His nostrils. I remain convinced He who is opposed to the proud opposes it, particularly since He paid such a high price to have us delivered as His inheritance in Jesus (Ephesians 1:18) and to make us a chosen race, a Holy nation, a royal priesthood -kings who are priests- and a people for His own possession (1st Peter 2:9)… not to mention the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. Ephesians 1:22-23)

Read Colossians 1 for more information on who has preeminence. He is the one and only head. Everyone else is just members of the body; None greater or higher, none lesser or lower. Each has its unique and vital function under the Head and He alone.

Michael:

Your arguments, as per usual, are dressed in the camouflage of distraction rather than dealing with direct questions asked of you and issues raised. Perhaps, you should have invested all those monies spent on theological underpinnings in a law degree.

1) You told Clark he was satisfied ,,,,,
because non-hierarchy was your presupposition from the beginning.

But then ignore your own foundational presuppositions… although you lift your cover a bit when you describe yourself as:
 a skeptic about the assumed (yet unproven) radical change between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant so often underlying (and underpinning) the anti-hierarchy position.

This is certainly a position based in your own presuppositions based in your experiences (education), because they only allow (force) you to defend a system that has proven itself a failure in bringing the Body of Christ into the functional reality of being the church, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

2) You say: The "one another" commands we read in the Apostolic Scriptures do not preclude hierarchy. They assume it.
This again is presupposition based upon your experience. Believe it or not, it is possible for APEPT’s to train and equip, and for Elders to bring correction, without having to have a hierarchial authority. The authority of the APEPT is made evident by the gift itself (the calling) and by the witness of the Holy Spirit. There is no need to wield titles, documents, or pedigree. If you know Him, and are called and commissioned by Him through the Holy Spirit, and function under His headship; He will establish reason enough for you to be listened to just as He was without having authority from the Sanhedrin.

As for elders, submission to this plural group is gained by their love for God, the church, and the local expression of His body. Their authority comes, in fact, from those who they protect and serve who recognize them. They are simply recognized by the body, as those who meet Biblical character qualities outlined in Timothy and Titus. And no one of them has more, or greater, authority than another. In fact, collegiality, not just plurality should be the standard for their actions or corrections if needed.

3) You say "Plural leadership" is also a form of hierarchy, in that there are still leaders and then the led. Again, I would guess that is based on your limited experiences with it. From my standpoint and experience, the issue is not “leadership”. We have a leader and head, Jesus, who administrates His will through His body, the church by the Holy Spirit He has graced us (individually and corporately) with. Elders are not the “leaders” of the church. They are a group of brothers who may be appointed by apostolic ministry, or who may come together organically to be recognized by the body, and their charge is protection and correction only… and only when needed, and they must all agree on any corrective action that may be required. It is not “plural leadership”, it is “in a multitude of counselors, there is much wisdom” based protection and correction for the church.

You say: The burden of proof always goes to the minority position which is trying to assert itself against the majority position.
Who says so? You? Again, presupposed gunk. Truth is not a matter of majority rule over the minority. The cases of the majority being mistaken and embracing the lie, and “Leaders” either intentionally or ignorantly leading them to hold to it are far too numerous in history to count down here. From ancient beliefs of a flat earth, to the sun orbiting the earth, to Arian/racist thinking and modern misconceptions of evolution there has always been a place for the many to be fooled, deluded and deceived. We do have an adversary who is the Father of lies. There has also been, by God’s grace, the place for a small remnant, or group of revolutionaries to discover His truth and purposes and embrace and enthusiastically declare them, in the face of being thought fanatics, lunatics, and sometimes at great personal costs. Paul’s embrace and declaration of a righteousness that came by faith in Jesus and the mercies of God being open to the Gentiles in Jesus, were heretical in his time and in the circle he came from. Even the Truth of the Gospel is still embrace by a minority in the world. That doesn’t make in need of being proven, or negate the position of those who embrace it.

As for male/female, husbands/wives, Fathers/children etc.: Submission is not based on one being superior to or over another. Submission means to be subordinate by choice in the purpose and plan of God. You choose to be subordinate in God’s order, not inferior or lesser or lower. And in God’s order/Kingdom, submission (that choice of one to subordinate themselves to another) is only gained by love and that love measured by sacrifice, suffering and humility. Certainly not by position, education, wealth, physical power, intimidation… Lording it over.

Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:21-32

Yes, a woman is told to submit to her husband. She is never told to love him. She doesn’t have to be told, because the only way she will truly submit to Him is if He loves her as Christ loves us. If he does so, that will draw out her love and submission, just as Christ’s love has drawn out of us submission to His Lordship at the revelation of His love. What is the greater responsibility? Submission… or Love measured by sacrifice that gains it? The command: Husbands love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it… is the greater responsibility, and is most often at the heart of “submission issues” in a problem marriage. If the man leads in love, she will respond in subordinate submission. If he tries to gain submission by virtue of his being a man, or through various kinds of intmidation, he may gain her forced obedience, and she may still subordinate herself, but he will never own her submitted heart. If one would lead… gain submission, then this kind of love and sacrificial service is the seedbed, not haughty attitudes, authoritarian structures, or positions on higher and lower rungs. I have been married 37 years, it took some time to learn it in my marriage, and then see the application it in the church.

So, let us not be treated to your circular arguments. Just answer Clark’s questions and put on display a description of your “higher and lower rungs” of hierarchy. Let’s see if it lines up with Philippians 2, of Colossians 1, or Romans 12 (and the Body analogy), or submission gained by love outlined in relationships throughout Ephesians.

gratefully redeemed,


Randy


p.s I wrote this late Thursday night and was unable to post it due to SC.com technical problems.

In the meantime Clark has again provided an excellent exposition of the case for the priesthood of believers embraced by Paul, Peter, and the early church in Acts and Antioch. Thanks Clark.

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Permalink Reply by michael on January 27, 2010 at 3:36pm

Hi Dena S et al,

Jesus' example as recorded by Paul in Phi 2 does not preclude hierarchy, as Randy Jordan insists, but rather demonstrates hierarchy's righteous application. Hierarchy is not evil. God, using His own make-up as a model, established hierarchy in nature and in human governance. He further exemplified its righteous application in His instructions to Israel, in their God-ordained multi-tiered society. God's Kingdom is a righteous hierarchy, with the goal being that no mere mortal human being "lords it over" a fellow human being. But, using Jesus as our example to temper rash conclusions, "lords it over" cannot mean "tells someone else what they should or must do...or there will be negative consequences..." or even "commands" since we see Jesus (and Paul, and others...the Apostolic church, in fact...) telling others what they should or must do...or there will be negative consequences...and commanding others. Hierarchy. So the problem has never been hierarchy in and of itself, but its abuse in the Church. That is my observation at least...the minority position here, I know. : D

Shalom from Manila,
--Michael

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Permalink Reply by dena sanderson smith on January 27, 2010 at 5:13pm

Michael et al,

"So the problem has never been hierarchy in and of itself, but its abuse in the Church." Amen to that too!!

Loving my brothers and sisters in Christ!
Dena


michael said:

Hi Dena S et al,

Jesus' example as recorded by Paul in Phi 2 does not preclude hierarchy, as Randy Jordan insists, but rather demonstrates hierarchy's righteous application. Hierarchy is not evil. God, using His own make-up as a model, established hierarchy in nature and in human governance. He further exemplified its righteous application in His instructions to Israel, in their God-ordained multi-tiered society. God's Kingdom is a righteous hierarchy, with the goal being that no mere mortal human being "lords it over" a fellow human being. But, using Jesus as our example to temper rash conclusions, "lords it over" cannot mean "tells someone else what they should or must do...or there will be negative consequences..." or even "commands" since we see Jesus (and Paul, and others...the Apostolic church, in fact...) telling others what they should or must do...or there will be negative consequences...and commanding others. Hierarchy. So the problem has never been hierarchy in and of itself, but its abuse in the Church. That is my observation at least...the minority position here, I know. : D

Shalom from Manila,
--Michael

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