Simple church and Apostolic church: A comparision
Having read through many of the threads here, I have seen many discussions on the Simple church ideal and practical. What I am interested in here is a quiet comparative study of the Simple church, the Apostolic church, and the Bible verses pertaining to church form and function.
Tags: apostolic, bible, church, simple
Views: 144
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Robert Loutzenhiser on -
Some verses to consider:
Act 2:46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
Act 2:47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
1Co 11:18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it.
1Co 11:19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.
1Co 14:33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints,
1Co 14:34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
1Co 14:35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
Act 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[a] Be shepherds of the church of God,[b] which he bought with his own blood.
To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;
1Pe 5:3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
Act 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.
1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
1Ti 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
1Ti 5:18 For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
I realize that this is a lot of verses. I am most interested in the position of the members and the duties/position of the leaders. I am not here to make trouble, I am just trying to reconcile what I have read with what I see the simple church movement teachings.
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Permalink Reply by David Evans on -
Robert
I do not speak for all the people associated with the term Simple Church, but here are some quick responses on these scriptures.
My first thought is to remember that most of what we call the New Testament is a collection of letters sent to specific people many times in response to a previous letter that we do not have. So we are getting half (or probably less than half of the conversation.) With that in mind I think we have to be very careful about broad dogmatic application of individual scriptures.
Act 2:46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
Act 2:47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Great Scripture. I meet and eat in the home(s) of those I fellowship with at least 3 times a week and the Lord adds some (not daily) but have no problem with anyone who wants to fellowship with us.
(have not had to really deal with anyone joining specifically with the goal of hurting or deceiving)
1Co 11:18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it.
1Co 11:19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.
A specific reference to a condition in Corinth. Not sure what you are indicating or asking with this verse
1Co 14:33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints,
1Co 14:34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
1Co 14:35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
Definitely a situation where we are walking into the middle of a discussion and only hearing bits and pieces. There are lots of scriptures that indicate women prophesied, used spiritual gifts, were instrumental in the ministry of Christ, Junia (female name) referenced as an apostle to, scriptures that say there is no difference in male of female in Christ - etc etc etc - to muddy the waters and make it impossible to use these verses as the overriding principle in how to deal with women. I can find no advantage for the Church in having the males try to in general dominate or subdue the females. I do not know all that was going on in Corinth but there were some particular cultural reasons that for a time at least Paul thought it would be good for the witness of the Churches in Corinth if the women took a subdued role. These commands were never repeated to another Church body
Act 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[a] Be shepherds of the church of God,[b] which he bought with his own blood.
To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;
1Pe 5:3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
In these scriptures I read an entreaty to Christians that have leadership gifts to lovingly use their leadership gifts in helping the brethren. Those that crave authority over others will try and make the “overseer” word a big deal. It is just a description of what they are doing. - Looking at the big picture and looking to see who they can help.
Be an example, (Christ like example – humble, thinking higher of others than yourself, thinking of the needs of others first etc) and then a specific command for leaders NOT to lord over people that they are using their gifts of leadership with and if they will NOT lord over people there will be a reward for them.
Act 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.
1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
Great place for brethren to be,- not something that can be just commanded but a result of real community of believers. Such community is short circuited by the authoritative paradigm that most leaders have in mind. Therefore the conditions described above will not be reached. In the community of believers I am in we operated very similar to this, willingly sharing what we have been blessed with the others in the group.
1Ti 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
1Ti 5:18 For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."
The word honor here is not the word for money, but respect and is used as such throughout the New Testament. The elder that operates in humility using leadership gifts correctly is definitely due respect.
I think there are times when we should monetarily support people in certain tasks, i.e. people gifted in starting fellowships who have been recognized by the group they are in community with and sent out by that group to travel around and do that would have to be supported.
The idea of paying people who live in one place using the gifts God has given them only makes sense IF you do not understand the every person giving of their gifts in a true Body of believers.
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
This verse works when you have true committed loving community and when you really know the person(s) who is operating in their leadership gift - (you eat with them, you hang out with them, go on trips together, etc)
Don’t forget the scriptures also say we are to submit one to another – same greek word, same submission.
Definition of Submission – allow yourself to be influenced. Obviously one would only obey another brother or sister if what they said bore witness to what we knew God was telling us also. It would be a confirmation.
I have several people in my life that if they told me to do something they know that 99% of the time I would. In fact I know them so well and they know me and I know they love me it would probably be 100% but I cannot guarantee that. However this only works in very close loving community. It does Not work by just saying so and so is the leader therefore you must submit and obey. In my opinion anyone who submits to another human when they are not in deep committed loving community is setting themselves up to be abused.
Robert Loutzenhiser said:Some verses to consider:
Act 2:46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
Act 2:47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
1Co 11:18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it.
1Co 11:19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.
1Co 14:33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints,
1Co 14:34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
1Co 14:35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
Act 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[a] Be shepherds of the church of God,[b] which he bought with his own blood.
To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;
1Pe 5:3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
Act 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.
1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
1Ti 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
1Ti 5:18 For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
I realize that this is a lot of verses. I am most interested in the position of the members and the duties/position of the leaders. I am not here to make trouble, I am just trying to reconcile what I have read with what I see the simple church movement teachings.
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Permalink Reply by Robert Loutzenhiser on
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Hello David. Thank you for your response.
I find that I agree with what your saying about most of the verses, which helped me to focus on what I need to discuss, the Position of the Elders.
There seems to be a variety of views on where the Elders stand in reference to the "sheep". No where is there a reference to a "Pastor", "Minister" or "Priest" as we use the terms today,IE., one in charge of the local body with a varying degree of authority all the way to absolute. (do we need to discuss the position of Pope, or agree that a denominational/church authority should only reside in Christ?)
Back to Elder. What I am seeing said here is that Elder is a "Guide" "leading from in front" (follow me boys! [excellent movie]). Now there is a emerging church form (not the Emergent Church) in which the local body has several Elders that are equal but are "above the flock" leaders.
So then, if you will indulge me, I see three major forms of the Elder. One where the Elder is the "above the flock leader" making all major decisions for the church such as who will be the Minister (Elders Board form). A second where there is a group of "equal" Elders, "above the flock" but doing all the preaching, group leading and decision making for the body. Then there is the Simple church ideal where the Elders are part of the congregation and seen as "encouragers"? Is that an accurate summation?
David Evans said:Robert
I do not speak for all the people associated with the term Simple Church, but here are some quick responses on these scriptures. My first thought is to remember that most of what we call the New Testament is a collection of letters sent to specific people many times in response to a previous letter that we do not have. So we are getting half (or probably less than half of the conversation.) With that in mind I think we have to be very careful about broad dogmatic application of individual scriptures.
Act 2:46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
Act 2:47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Great Scripture. I meet and eat in the home(s) of those I fellowship with at least 3 times a week and the Lord adds some (not daily) but have no problem with anyone who wants to fellowship with us.
(have not had to really deal with anyone joining specifically with the goal of hurting or deceiving)
1Co 11:18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it.
1Co 11:19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.
A specific reference to a condition in Corinth. Not sure what you are indicating or asking with this verse
1Co 14:33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints,
1Co 14:34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
1Co 14:35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
Definitely a situation where we are walking into the middle of a discussion and only hearing bits and pieces. There are lots of scriptures that indicate women prophesied, used spiritual gifts, were instrumental in the ministry of Christ, Junia (female name) referenced as an apostle to, scriptures that say there is no difference in male of female in Christ - etc etc etc - to muddy the waters and make it impossible to use these verses as the overriding principle in how to deal with women. I can find no advantage for the Church in having the males try to in general dominate or subdue the females. I do not know all that was going on in Corinth but there were some particular cultural reasons that for a time at least Paul thought it would be good for the witness of the Churches in Corinth if the women took a subdued role. These commands were never repeated to another Church body
Act 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[a] Be shepherds of the church of God,[b] which he bought with his own blood.
To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;
1Pe 5:3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
In these scriptures I read an entreaty to Christians that have leadership gifts to lovingly use their leadership gifts in helping the brethren. Those that crave authority over others will try and make the “overseer” word a big deal. It is just a description of what they are doing. - Looking at the big picture and looking to see who they can help.
Be an example, (Christ like example – humble, thinking higher of others than yourself, thinking of the needs of others first etc) and then a specific command for leaders NOT to lord over people that they are using their gifts of leadership with and if they will NOT lord over people there will be a reward for them.
Act 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.
1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
Great place for brethren to be,- not something that can be just commanded but a result of real community of believers. Such community is short circuited by the authoritative paradigm that most leaders have in mind. Therefore the conditions described above will not be reached. In the community of believers I am in we operated very similar to this, willingly sharing what we have been blessed with the others in the group.
1Ti 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
1Ti 5:18 For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."
The word honor here is not the word for money, but respect and is used as such throughout the New Testament. The elder that operates in humility using leadership gifts correctly is definitely due respect.
I think there are times when we should monetarily support people in certain tasks, i.e. people gifted in starting fellowships who have been recognized by the group they are in community with and sent out by that group to travel around and do that would have to be supported.
The idea of paying people who live in one place using the gifts God has given them only makes sense IF you do not understand the every person giving of their gifts in a true Body of believers.
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
This verse works when you have true committed loving community and when you really know the person(s) who is operating in their leadership gift - (you eat with them, you hang out with them, go on trips together, etc)
Don’t forget the scriptures also say we are to submit one to another – same greek word, same submission.
Definition of Submission – allow yourself to be influenced. Obviously one would only obey another brother or sister if what they said bore witness to what we knew God was telling us also. It would be a confirmation.
I have several people in my life that if they told me to do something they know that 99% of the time I would. In fact I know them so well and they know me and I know they love me it would probably be 100% but I cannot guarantee that. However this only works in very close loving community. It does Not work by just saying so and so is the leader therefore you must submit and obey. In my opinion anyone who submits to another human when they are not in deep committed loving community is setting themselves up to be abused.
Robert Loutzenhiser said:Some verses to consider:
Act 2:46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, Act 2:47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
1Co 11:18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it.
1Co 11:19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.
1Co 14:33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints,
1Co 14:34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
1Co 14:35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
Act 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[a] Be shepherds of the church of God,[b] which he bought with his own blood.
To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;
1Pe 5:3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
Act 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.
1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
1Ti 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
1Ti 5:18 For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
I realize that this is a lot of verses. I am most interested in the position of the members and the duties/position of the leaders. I am not here to make trouble, I am just trying to reconcile what I have read with what I see the simple church movement teachings.
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Permalink Reply by Robert Loutzenhiser on
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In the letter to Titus and other areas we find that either Paul appoints elders or, in the case, has his disciple appoint elders.
Tit 1:5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint[a] elders in every town, as I directed you.
How is this to be reflected today? Are the elders to be appointed by one that can discern their spirit/ability/gift?
If so, who has that authority, if not then how do we ensure that those that become simple church Elders have been appointed by God?
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Permalink Reply by David Evans on
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Robert wrote
"the Simple church ideal where the Elders are part of the congregation and seen as "encouragers"? Is that an accurate summation?"
"Paul appoints elders or, in the case, has his disciple appoint elders. Tit 1:5... How is this to be reflected today? Are the elders to be appointed by one that can discern their spirit/ability/gift? If so, who has that authority, if not then how do we ensure that those that become simple church Elders have been appointed by God?"
Robert
These are good questions but they miss the focus. Fellowships that get caught up in the leadership part generally do not have the right kind of leaders to start with and probably are not going to last very long. Real leaders are mostly in the background and have been through a lot of maturing and breaking. They work for a living and no longer care for titles do not use such titles to describe themselves. Paul a broken and mature leader and master church builder did write those verses to specific fellowships. I am sure there was good reason for them to do what he said. I would be careful not to make those verses dogmatic blue prints. There are principles of building good fellowships but it is not a matter of just follow a few snippets of a letter here and there and add water, bake and out comes a fellowship.
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Permalink Reply by Tom Vogel on -
Looks like most of the appropriate verses have already been covered. Next, I might offer some definitions, which make assumptions that may or may not be true. Let us say I define Apostolic church as what we see in Acts through Revelation. Let us say that Simple church is modern expressions of believers who desire to apply the principles of the Apostolic church to local bodies here and now in our own culture. My experience over the past year that I have been involved in simple church (due to employment change I have been involved with two different ones). Some of the practical problems that have come up where I've been are: 1. Many of us have been missionaries, or in seminary, or bible school, or denominations, or traditional leadership positions, or what have you that color how we approach church, even when we have heard or read what it was originally like. This is most difficult with people used to being leaders. 2. Many of us have been hurt in the past, and have known the "right" thing is to not admit this anger. 3. Many of us are in the position of being convinced in our mind and/or spirit that these principles are closer to correct understanding of scripture, but have no experience being church in this way before. Sometimes we do not sense the leading of the Spirit over our own ideas properly. It is clear from scripture that the early church didn't get it right, either. There is a "fly by the seat of your pants" aspect to both situations, separated by culture and a couple thousand years. How the Holy Spirit guides is difficult to put into words, and will differ from place to place.
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Permalink Reply by Robert Loutzenhiser on
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Then what do we follow?
David Evans said:Robert wrote
"the Simple church ideal where the Elders are part of the congregation and seen as "encouragers"? Is that an accurate summation?"
"Paul appoints elders or, in the case, has his disciple appoint elders. Tit 1:5... How is this to be reflected today? Are the elders to be appointed by one that can discern their spirit/ability/gift? If so, who has that authority, if not then how do we ensure that those that become simple church Elders have been appointed by God?"
Robert
These are good questions but they miss the focus. Fellowships that get caught up in the leadership part generally do not have the right kind of leaders to start with and probably are not going to last very long. Real leaders are mostly in the background and have been through a lot of maturing and breaking. They work for a living and no longer care for titles do not use such titles to describe themselves. Paul a broken and mature leader and master church builder did write those verses to specific fellowships. I am sure there was good reason for them to do what he said. I would be careful not to make those verses dogmatic blue prints. There are principles of building good fellowships but it is not a matter of just follow a few snippets of a letter here and there and add water, bake and out comes a fellowship.
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Permalink Reply by Robert Loutzenhiser on
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I "see" you saying that a church group is a free group. That the leading of the Holy Spirit is what we are to be following. Good enough. Now the Million Dollar question. How do I know that you are being lead by the Holy Spirit? I can point to over one thousand churches that claim to be following the Holy Spirit but plainly have are following self. Who is to protect the new member from falling to one of these deceptions in the guise of a home church?
Tom Vogel said:Looks like most of the appropriate verses have already been covered. Next, I might offer some definitions, which make assumptions that may or may not be true. Let us say I define Apostolic church as what we see in Acts through Revelation. Let us say that Simple church is modern expressions of believers who desire to apply the principles of the Apostolic church to local bodies here and now in our own culture. My experience over the past year that I have been involved in simple church (due to employment change I have been involved with two different ones). Some of the practical problems that have come up where I've been are: 1. Many of us have been missionaries, or in seminary, or bible school, or denominations, or traditional leadership positions, or what have you that color how we approach church, even when we have heard or read what it was originally like. This is most difficult with people used to being leaders. 2. Many of us have been hurt in the past, and have known the "right" thing is to not admit this anger. 3. Many of us are in the position of being convinced in our mind and/or spirit that these principles are closer to correct understanding of scripture, but have no experience being church in this way before. Sometimes we do not sense the leading of the Spirit over our own ideas properly. It is clear from scripture that the early church didn't get it right, either. There is a "fly by the seat of your pants" aspect to both situations, separated by culture and a couple thousand years. How the Holy Spirit guides is difficult to put into words, and will differ from place to place.
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Permalink Reply by David Evans on
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Jesus Christ
Robert Loutzenhiser said:Then what do we follow?
David Evans said:Robert wrote
"the Simple church ideal where the Elders are part of the congregation and seen as "encouragers"? Is that an accurate summation?"
"Paul appoints elders or, in the case, has his disciple appoint elders. Tit 1:5... How is this to be reflected today? Are the elders to be appointed by one that can discern their spirit/ability/gift? If so, who has that authority, if not then how do we ensure that those that become simple church Elders have been appointed by God?"
Robert
These are good questions but they miss the focus. Fellowships that get caught up in the leadership part generally do not have the right kind of leaders to start with and probably are not going to last very long. Real leaders are mostly in the background and have been through a lot of maturing and breaking. They work for a living and no longer care for titles do not use such titles to describe themselves. Paul a broken and mature leader and master church builder did write those verses to specific fellowships. I am sure there was good reason for them to do what he said. I would be careful not to make those verses dogmatic blue prints. There are principles of building good fellowships but it is not a matter of just follow a few snippets of a letter here and there and add water, bake and out comes a fellowship.
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Permalink Reply by David Evans on
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"My sheep know my voice"
Jesus did not instruct Peter to pick up his cross and follow John. He said "follow Me"
God is able to meet each and every one of us. He said "I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." This is true and is what happens when one really opens the door to Jesus. Jesus is the The Good Shepherd and He takes care of His sheep and they hear His voice. Only when we decide to abdicate our relationship to other men instead of the Holy Spirit our selves do we fall into the trap you speak of. You ask who will protect these. Jesus says He will. Do as Paul did and point everyone back to Christ and you will be doing them the biggest favor you could. When men play messiah it is always dangerous.
Robert Loutzenhiser said:I "see" you saying that a church group is a free group. That the leading of the Holy Spirit is what we are to be following. Good enough. Now the Million Dollar question. How do I know that you are being lead by the Holy Spirit? I can point to over one thousand churches that claim to be following the Holy Spirit but plainly have are following self. Who is to protect the new member from falling to one of these deceptions in the guise of a home church?
Tom Vogel said:Looks like most of the appropriate verses have already been covered. Next, I might offer some definitions, which make assumptions that may or may not be true. Let us say I define Apostolic church as what we see in Acts through Revelation. Let us say that Simple church is modern expressions of believers who desire to apply the principles of the Apostolic church to local bodies here and now in our own culture. My experience over the past year that I have been involved in simple church (due to employment change I have been involved with two different ones). Some of the practical problems that have come up where I've been are: 1. Many of us have been missionaries, or in seminary, or bible school, or denominations, or traditional leadership positions, or what have you that color how we approach church, even when we have heard or read what it was originally like. This is most difficult with people used to being leaders. 2. Many of us have been hurt in the past, and have known the "right" thing is to not admit this anger. 3. Many of us are in the position of being convinced in our mind and/or spirit that these principles are closer to correct understanding of scripture, but have no experience being church in this way before. Sometimes we do not sense the leading of the Spirit over our own ideas properly. It is clear from scripture that the early church didn't get it right, either. There is a "fly by the seat of your pants" aspect to both situations, separated by culture and a couple thousand years. How the Holy Spirit guides is difficult to put into words, and will differ from place to place.
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Permalink Reply by Clark Wade on -
Greetings brother Robert,
I agree with what David Evans and Tom Vogel have written. I did look up each passage that you gave here and here are a few things added to their perspectives.
Act 2:46-47 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
This passage about them meeting in "temple courts" is intriguing. My translation, "Concordant Literal Translation" says it this way:
"Besides persevering day by day with one accord in the sanctuary..."
Is this talking about those who went to the temples to "persevere" with the Jews that were still following the customs of the Old Testament and contended for the faith there? This was the pattern I know for Paul to visit the synagogues first to speak of Jesus Christ. Typically, their welcome in such places was not real favorable.
It can also be that "at the beginning" this may have been a common practice of the early church as well, especially the church out of Jerusalem. Some "traditions:" die real hard. I notice that this passage is given at the very beginning of the book of Acts, and if this was a custom that the Christians began with, I don't think they did this for very long simply becuse of the hostile nature of the environment that was "in the temple." I just can't find any sources in the New Testament that speaks of the brethren meeting in the syagogue as a preferred place for their meetings. Remember Jesus Himself was kicked out of a synagogue early in HIS ministry. If you were a person who preached Jesus Christ, this wasn't a "warm and fuzzy" place to hang out in. In a reading of the book of Acts, we see Paul constantly whipped and threatened with death for speaking the Name of Jesus in the synagogues, or the temple proper. They did have meetings in Solomon's Porch. That was a place that could accomodate many of the believers, and here the apostles would instruct and equip the early church by laying a foundation on Christ only. These kind of meetings were "training" meetings by the apostles. These new believers were also being equipped to "function" in their meetings together under the Headship of Jesus Christ, according to Ephesians 4. .
Here's a note in my bible on this passage:
"Meeting in homes as the Chritian way of meeting together is fitting to God's New Testament economy. This way differs from the Judaiac way of meeting in the syangogues (6:9). It became a continual and general practice in the churches (cf. Rom. 16:5; I Cor. 16:19; Col. 4:15; Philem 2).
1Co 14:33-35 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
Rather than comment on this particular verse, I would like to give a site where another article by Jon Zens can be read in its entirely. It's called "Are Sister's Free To Function?" This is one of the best articles that I know on this subject and fills in some questions. The article can be found at http://www.searchingtogether.org/free-to-function.htm
1Co 11:18-19 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.
The context of this is the Lord's Supper. It seems the party-spirit Paul is talking about here is the division between the poorer brethren and the richer brethren. The richer brethren would eat all the food and drink all the wine before the poorer brethren would arrive. They wouldn't "wait" for one another. I guess they thought they were "too good" or "better" than the poorer brethren. What Paul criticized them for was for "not discerning te body of Christ." I Cor. 11:29. Today, when we typically take communion, this has been lost. We think our taking of communion is an indiviual affair so we search our conscience to see if we "are worthy" to take it without giving very little thought to "the body of Christ" that Paul speaks of here. But Paul's admonishment here speaks of our inability to discern the entire body when we gather together. Do we see that each member is as important as the more distinguished members? Eating and drinking unworthy is eating and drinking before the other members have even arrived to partake. And at this time, the Lord's Supper was a full-blown meal. It was later that the elements were separated from the feasting.
Act 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[a] Be shepherds of the church of God,[b] which he bought with his own blood.
Paul is speaking here to all of the elders at Ephesus. It appears from this that there was "one" flock but plural elders here. I think that is always the case with elders in the churches, at least where "elders" existed. In some of these nascent churches, it took years for such elders to grow naturally out of the fellowship. Then Paul does say that after he is gone that wolves from among the flock will rise up and that men will speak perverse things in order to "pull disciples after themselves." Acts 20: 30-31 As Paul is speaking to "elders" here, he is saying that some of these elders will get big heads and try to attract people to themselves and their "private ministries" rather than the centrality of Jesus Christ. There's just something about human nature that loves the prominance and preeminence of being recognized as "spiritual leaders" that is so tempting to our flesh. The beloved disciple, the Apostle John wrote this about one of these characters in 3 John 1:9:
I wrote a letter to the congregation. But Diotrephes, who loves to be in charge, won't accept us.
A complete reading of this chapter also reveals that Paul urges these elders not to covet other people's "gold or silver," :
"I covet no one's silver or gold or vesture. You know that these hands have ministered to my needs and to those who are with me. In all things I have shown you by example that toiling in this way, we ought to support the weak and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, "It is more blesed to give than to receive." Acts 20:35.
Act 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.
Scripture says plainly that we are to take care of one another, to the best of our ability. "Those that used to steal, stal no more but work with your own hands that you may be able to give to those in need." Ephesians 428
1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
This is not an easy thing, especially with a group of people who are meeting in such close quarters and truly getting to know one another, the good and the ill. The only way this can actually be done is through the cross of Jesus Christ. It has been well stated that the current arrangement of things with an hour-and-a-half service with little intimacy actually protects us from one another. So you have one brother that just wants to talk about "bible prophecy." Another sister just want to talk about "spiritual warfare." Another wants to focus on "helping the homeless." Another brother wants to talk about "doctrine." This list goes on and on and on. Only when a group strips down to Jesus Christ alone, making HIM the topic of their conversations, of their prayers, of their meetings, can there be true unity. Unity comes out of making Christ the content and the context of the meetings together, and more importantly, of their lives together. .
1Ti 5:17-18 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."
My translation says this quite differently. It goes like this:
"Let elders who have presided ideally be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who are toiling in word and teaching, for the scripture is saying: "A threshing ox you shall not be muzzling," and "Worthy is the worker of his wages."
I don't see the elders so much as "directing the affairs of the church," but I do see them among the flock of God as those who are toiling in "word and teaching" and are deserving of "double honor" or "respect."
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
My translation has it this way:
"Be persuaded by your leaders, and be deferring to them, for they are vigalent for the sake of your souls, as having to render an account, that they may be doing this with joy, and not with groaning, for this is disadvantageous for you."
It is not clear who the writers of Hebrews, (could be Barnabas or Apllos) is referring to here as "leaders." It has been suggested that these leaders are the itinerate apostles (and their workers) themselves. Could be. He doesn't speak of the leaders "among the flock" but simply "your leaders," This would be open to interpretation. But there is nothing stated like "submitting to their authority" but of "their persuasion." The latter has an imperialistic sound to it, and the former speaks more of mutual respect born out a commonality as brothers. I think he's saying, "Let these brothers influence you by word and by their deeds,. for what they say carries the weight of experience and concern for you."
Anyway brother, just some thoughts.
Blessings to you brother,
Clark
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Permalink Reply by Kriston Couchey on -
Why should there be a camparison of simple church and apostolic church when the both should be one in the same??? Whether we like it or not the church is built upon the foundations of the apostles and prophets. This is hard for the many offended and reactive to the abuses of the past. Whether we like it or not the equipping of the church is by the ministry of apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and evangelist. Frank Violas teachings are apostolic equipping, is that apostolic??? These equipping people do not fucntion as lords but as guides or signposts that lead to people to become themsleves mature and fuirther the formation of Christ wthin themsleves. God is not building an apostolic hierarchy, nor is He discarding the only means by which He has given the body to become mature. It's time to reconcile the two to become fully what the church is meant to be... A nonapostolic church is less then what God intended the church to be..
In Him
Kris
http://my.opera.com/Boanerges/blog/
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