Simple church, and or house church movement.
I do agree with the idea that the standard church my have gone astray in some avenues but here are a few questions that I have for you house church people. One, what do you fine the main difference between your small gathering and say a church of 200 that has small groups? Two, how do you guy's fight off wrong teaching seeing as you allow anyone to speak and many people misinterpret, so do you let them speak freely because even that wasn't allowed in the early church as some authors are trying to shove along, Also, what do you do when your house church becomes two big to you stop having people meet at your house, or do you meet at a bigger building? Because if you stop people from coming you seem like you don't allow the body to come. Also, if you are growing and you become known as a place or community that does good things in the community and speaks about God you will become bigger and establish and isn't that what the church is? Also, once you start to grow leadership is organic and is natural, for example Moses was the head of Israel, all the Judges were head of Israel, the High priest that God establish was in charge of the church, and Paul was the head of the church of Antioch. So saying that headship is wrong... please don't say that because its a lie. Please don't think I'm trying to speak down on the house movement its something that I've been looking into a lot, I just was wondering why you go to them over the modern church that has small groups.
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on -
I do agree with the idea that the standard church my have gone astray in some avenues but here are a few questions that I have for you house church people. One, what do you fine the main difference between your small gathering and say a church of 200 that has small groups?
An absence of over-lording. The only Head is Christ. No human acts as head (thus usurping His role).
Two, how do you guy's fight off wrong teaching seeing as you allow anyone to speak and many people misinterpret, so do you let them speak freely because even that wasn't allowed in the early church as some authors are trying to shove along,
Tell me, how does the IC "fight off wrong teaching"...? It's called "divide and denominationalize," LOL! Yeah, that's how they know we're Christians, by our "love".
How 'bout if we all learn to love each other, while in this journey into all truth, and let the Spirit be the one who both leads, and corrects...? Novel concept, no? ;)
Also, what do you do when your house church becomes two big to you stop having people meet at your house, or do you meet at a bigger building? Because if you stop people from coming you seem like you don't allow the body to come. Also, if you are growing and you become known as a place or community that does good things in the community and speaks about God you will become bigger and establish and isn't that what the church is? Also, once you start to grow leadership is organic and is natural, for example Moses was the head of Israel, all the Judges were head of Israel, the High priest that God establish was in charge of the church, and Paul was the head of the church of Antioch. So saying that headship is wrong... please don't say that because its a lie. Please don't think I'm trying to speak down on the house movement its something that I've been looking into a lot, I just was wondering why you go to them over the modern church that has small groups.
As I said before: overlording.
Sounds like you prefer to answer your own questions. ;)
When a group gets "too big" it's simple ... let each one then go to their own home, and start a new group. Multiply.
Just an observation about Moses ... we're not in the old covenant anymore (though we sure can act like it, no?).
House church is not "the answer" ... following Jesus as He leads is the answer. And house church could very well be a stepping stone in that journey ...
Shalom, Dena
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Permalink Reply by PerfectlyOne on -
Jacob,
Blesings to you and your family. Amen to Chris's and Dena's prior comments. My comments for each question of yours follows your question in italics.
One, what do you fine the main difference between your small gathering and say a church of 200 that has small groups? - Most churches that I have been a part of where I led a small group, I was only allowed to do so if the scope of the proposed small group was acceptable to the "Small Group Pastor." If the small group was "Carpentry for Christ" and I was a master carpenter, I still needed to speak in tongues or not depending on what denomination was ruling over this small group. I needed man's permission to do what God had laid on my heart to do. God's permission, however, was not required by the church leadership. These policies were always in writing no matter what "denominational" flavor I was a member of. Secondly, participants in small groups normally come and go after just 6; 9, maybe 12-weeks. Sometimes they even birth long-lasting friendships. They rarely, however, birth a new family who shares everything with one another, who lives for one another, who would lay down their life for one another. Since God designed and created everything including us, the family, and the church, I believe we are all made in His image individidually as well as social entities, triune in nature. There is a glorious servant relationship inside each of these triune entities. This is also where I see a major difference between the tradutional church with small groups and a simple/organic church. God = Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Family = Husband, Wife, and Children. Institutional Church = Jesus Christ, Man-Appointed Leaders, Flock. Organic/Simple Church = Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, Flock. This does not mean that the church should not have those who are elders. That does not mean that there are gifted for certain ministries and those gifted for others.
Two, how do you guy's fight off wrong teaching seeing as you allow anyone to speak and many people misinterpret, so do you let them speak freely because even that wasn't allowed in the early church as some authors are trying to shove along. - The Holy Spirit guides us unto all truth. Church with truly regenerated believers and this is not an issue. This does not mean somebody will not teach something off when compared to God's nature and His will now and then, but it will be peacefully corrected fairly quickly or one individual will leave the body.
Also, what do you do when your house church becomes two big to you stop having people meet at your house, or do you meet at a bigger building? - The church under the guidance of The Holy Spirit sends and new churches are planted.
Also, if you are growing and you become known as a place or community that does good things in the community and speaks about God you will become bigger and establish and isn't that what the church is? - The church is the bride to be and she should be making herself ready for the bridegroom. The members are to do good to one another.
Also, once you start to grow leadership is organic and is natural, for example Moses was the head of Israel, all the Judges were head of Israel, the High priest that God establish was in charge of the church, and Paul was the head of the church of Antioch. - Who called Moses, Paul, and Peter and what were they called to do? Was it really to rule over church members or was it something else? Jesus said he could do nothing that was not our Father's will. Like Jesus said, he came into the world serve and give (Mark 10:45). Paul said it was no longer he that lived, but Christ within him (Gal 2:20). How could Paul live for anything else but to be a servant then? The head of the church has always been Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone. When I gather I do so at His feet. However, I agree that God allows "kings" to rule over men as heads of the state (not the church), but again this is another entity that God designed: State = God, Kings, and Citizens. And when the king gets out of line, God will take care of him. Ask King Ahab and King David.
Please don't think I'm trying to speak down on the house movement its something that I've been looking into a lot, I just was wondering why you go to them over the modern church that has small groups. - Only if we renew our minds will we ever understand His will (Romans 12).
P.S. Organic/simple church can be very hard. Unlike the traditional church where we typically get together for maybe 2-3 hours a week at the most and never let each other see our dirty laundry, we tend to get spiritually naked before each other and become undone. We cannot hide, because we have REAL relationship and unity with one another (John 17) like a close-knit family and we are continuously edifying and perfecting each other and doing good for one another. If believers come together to gather church at home simply because they are disgruntled with their traditional church life, they will often split or fail. The beauty, however, is so much worth the risk. It is not about what building we meet in though, it is about who we follow.
In Christ,
Michael
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Permalink Reply by Tom LeCompte on -
These are good questions. I can't speak for the whole house church movement, but I'll give you some opinions based on our church's experience:
1. The main difference between cell groups and house churches is the autonomy of leadership. In a cell church (small group church) you still have a hierarchy of leadership on multiple levels. In a house church, you may have only one level of leadership and that group is free to serve Christ as the Spirit leads. Also, in our church at least, our "members" are free to tithe to whatever ministry or mission they choose, since we have very little overhead expenses.
2. False teaching. You will be surprised at how little this happens in a small group. When 15 people are searching the scriptures in an attitude of humility, there is little room for false teaching. When it does come up, it is easily exposed and swiftly dealt with. For example, in our group we have many international students who visit. These students might be Hindu, Muslim, secular or whatever. When they contribute to the discussion, it may not be sound doctrine. But knowing their background, we are patient with them. However, we do not let them have the last word. We will gently follow up their comment with a counter point or another question which leads back to the scriptures.
Our church has had to deal with a false teacher. I define a false teacher as one who claims to be a follower of Christ, yet his or her message is clearly unscriptural. We dealt with this person patiently according to the guidelines in Matthew 18. Eventually, that person left our church.
3. What happens when we get bigger? This is a wonderful "problem." Over the past six years, our church has grown from one group up to five groups and now we currently meet in three groups (two groups have moved on). When one group outgrows a house, that group multiplies by dividing. One group becomes two. Two groups become three or four. And so on. Each group is autonomous, yet is overseen by a group of elders. Once a month, we gather all our groups into one large group worship in a rented facility. In that way, our particular house church network functions like a cell church. The main difference is that we refuse to buy any property, or hire a professional staff. That is money that can be used on the mission field.
4. Leadership: I'm not sure what question you are asking. Do we think that headship is wrong? Only if it is centered on one person, such as a pastor. We have no single leader. Instead, we have a plurality of elders that oversee the affairs of the church. That doesn't mean they make every decision for the church. Each church decides the day to day and week to week happenings. The elders are there to cast vision, protect the flock from harm, guide the church, practice church disciple when necessary, counsel members when necessary, teach the flock and then teach other members how to teach.
In your examples, you mentioned Moses, the High Priest, and the Judges. These were necessary for Israel under the circumstances of the Old covenant. They are no longer valid in the New Covenant. Christ is our Head. We are a kingdom of priests and Jesus is our mediator before God. In the New Testament, we see the example of elders (plural) appointed in various churches. But I don't see any office in the New Testament that equates to our modern Pastor. It just isn't there.
By the way, Paul was not the leader of the Antioch Church. He and Barnabas did teach there temporarily. They were servants there. It was the Antioch Church that sent Paul and Barnabas out on the first missionary journey. At the completion of that journey, they came back to report to that church. Paul had a unique authority as an Apostle, which allowed him to take authority temporarily to establish churches. He always relinquished that authority as soon as capable leadership was appointed. Apostolic leadership is another subject for another post.
In summary, I am in no way attacking cell churches. They have the right idea about gathering people in small groups for the purpose of accountability, intimate fellowship, encouraging people to use their gifts and talents, and learning through dialogue. These are good things that no house church person would object to. What we do object to is the unnecessary levels of leadership (small group leaders answering to the small group pastor answering to the discipleship pastor answering to the head pastor, etc.) and/or the concentration of leadership in a single pastor.
Instead of arguing against these things, I want to argue positively for the house church movement. I will tell you the biggest reasons I'm a part of this movement.
1. Missions. Missions. Missions. The house church model is the single most effective model being used overseas. It makes disciples quicker than the conventional method (build a church building, hire a pastor, train a choir, etc.). It is easily reproduced in any culture and any location. It engages new believers and puts them to work instantly in ministry. The house church model is the same model that the Holy Spirit used in the first century to "turn the world upside down."
2. If it works on the mission field in other cultures, can we expect it to work the same way here in North America? That remains to be seen, but I'm betting that it will. We are a post-modern, post-Christian society. For all practical purposes, we are just as much a mission field as India, China, Africa or the Middle East. If we are going to reach our own people for Christ, we have to start thinking like missionaries. Duplicating the traditional churches of the past will probably not work as well as organic churches.
3. Wise use of God's resources. Why must my tithe go to pay for the mortgage of a church building that sits empty most days of the week? Why must my tithe go to pay for the salary of a youth minister who could never disciple my children better than his parents can? Why should I tithe to a church budget that might MIGHT allocate 10% of the church's budget to pioneer missions when I can give 100% of my tithe to a mission that will do pioneer missions? As a house church member, I am free to give my tithes and offerings to the ministries that God leads me to give to. There is almost no overhead to pay for in my church.
4. Sadly, I think the church as we know it is in decline and will continue to decline. I will not be surprised if within my lifetime that Christianity will undergo some harsh persecution in America. I'm talking about prison and even death for Christians. Going to church might become illegal in the generations to come. If this happens, then the church will only survive underground. The house church movement may be the survival of the church in America in the not too distant future.
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Permalink Reply by Katie Mather on -
Nice Job Tom.
As a former "pastor" might I add, Now I get to worship Father alone instead of worshiping a building, a service, a program, the form, the leaders, the denomination, the doctrine, the...
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Permalink Reply by Jacob Zarris on -
First off I'd like to thank all of you for commenting on this topic, it’s full of good thoughts and people’s opinions. Some are rational thoughts some were still full of emotion showing hurt that they may have felt, in either way I'd like to thank all of you truly. I'm going to respond hopefully this will keep the dialogue going and not offend anyone, although slight emotion will be in my reply at times so thank you already for forgiveness.
Now as I have thought most of you have noted your disagreements with the common church set up. It's a healthy to question what you believe, and we all go through that period of our lives where we either agree with the truth that we are taught or revolt and form our own truth. (Not suggesting either is right) But a statement that many of you have addressed is that you feel "free to worship 'naturally', unhappy about Church spending, over-lording, and leadership is wrong." I love the last one by the way I love a good joke. But I think there is something I have to say before I speak of the three major points that were brought up. Well all point our finger and say, "Look the church is so wrong let’s leave and start our own." Well we are all the church, so first why don't we take a good look at ourselves before we cast judgment—whether deserved or no. If we would actually do are part and "Out-do one another in showing honor" (Romans 12:10.) We seem to be caught up on such small things, and seems like most people don't like to submit to any kind of authority but "Christ’s."
Start with "free to worship 'naturally." First was there some reason you Katie as "pastor" couldn't worship... and was that really the buildings fault, because guess what "A house is a building." In addition isn't worship a lifestyle, so would it really matter where we "worship" seeing as it is a life style and not bound by any walls? So, how having someone playing the piano and guitar in your house is any different then when a group of brothers and sisters meet in a bigger building and worship Jesus in singing together? There is no difference because God is in both settings.
Unhappy about church spending is an important one, but why wouldn't you just try to voice your opinion about it to the elders or pastor? Furthermore why don't you join the church or staff, so you voice your idea of what church spending should be either the local ministry or international? At times I also disagree with the way churches spend some of their money, but at the same time isn't their aim to fulfill their vision in that place. If it’s to witness to the local community and you want to give to a missionary, fine don't shake your fist at the church for helping the local body, just give your money to missions. I know plenty of missionaries if you need a list.
Over-lording is a tricky topic because you would have to explain the context of saying that phrase. I do agree that people have used ministry to take advantage of people and yes that is horribly wrong. Though just because you have a guideline in how to do a bible study, or maybe a common idea for discipleship is so far from over-lording. Just so you know even if there is a guideline from a pastor, they don't yell at you over leaving the guideline if the Holy Spirit leads you. I don't think that any pastor of any church or small group would ever be mad at a leader for following the guidance of the Holy Spirit. So don't use the idea that just because 'your' not in full control of the group that Christ can't work because that seems like a selfish spirit and prideful spirit 'if I don't have full control for Jesus, then Jesus can't work" that is rubbish
Now leadership, I would really like a pool to ask people who truly think that leadership is bad. If people said yes, I think I would just tell them to read the Bible, because there is leadership from Moses all the way to Paul, John, and Peter. Let’s just look at Paul's writings, "And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ." (Eph 4:11, 12) As we see Christ set up leadership to help the body of Christ to equip them for ministry and to build up the body so why again is leadership bad?
Now I want to say something to John, I think you still be very careful by saying what God thinks of leaders. You replied completely out of anger towards leadership, so I really question why you end with "Your servant in Christ" when you just a few words ago called other brother "Morons, and deceivers" be very careful to cast your judgment on people who are ministering to God's people. I question where your heart is if you can't show love at all, because there was no love till your signature. I would hope you would look into your heart and seek out the anger before casting lies on people again.
To all the rest thank you for speaking your belief without judging others.
Jacob Zarris.
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Permalink Reply by PerfectlyOne on
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Jacob,
First let me say I was encouraged by your reference to Romans 12. However, regretfully other than that your comments leave me with much concern. In your original post you attempted to answer all of your own questions. That was a sign you really never cared what anybody would have to contribute. It appears from your response my hunch was well founded. It seems you had little understanding if any of what was written in response to your original post by Christopher, Dena, Tom, or any of the others who responded. I do have hope for you though.
I myself have observed very few believers in the institutional church setting of any denomination from Catholic to Charismatic to Freewill Baptist to Mennonite (and I have tried on just about all of the flavors of the Christian religion) that have shown scripturally tested evidence of being authentic disciples of Christ whether they be layperson or clergy. That observation by no means indicates that nothing good comes out of the "institutional" church. I sadly believe most will hear the Lord say, "Go from me, I never knew you." - not "Well done my good and faithful servant." I believe, however, the same is also true for most who gather together in homes who are simply disgruntled former "institutional" church members, especially disgruntled former professional clergy.
First let's meditate the words of our Master - "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:34-35 (ESV)
Then let's meditate on the Lord's prayer for us - "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me." John 17:20-23 (ESV)
In Matthew 5-7 the Lord shares some details on what it means to be His disciple and finishes with telling us how few who say to me "Lord, Lord" will see the Kingdom of God.
Finally I ask us to meditate on Romans 12 (which you had mentioned briefly Romans 12:10). In Romans 12:1-21 Paul teaches us about being authentic disciples to include surrendering completely to His lordship, being separate from the world, having a sober self-assessment, serving one another in love, and supernaturally overcoming evil with good. You touched on this when you referred to Romans 12:10.
Show me those kinds of disciples in the church no matter where they meet if you can - it seems to me that they certainly are few and far between, just as the Lord said they were. However, I have hope - the church our Lord planted is built upon an solid rock and it will stand forever. I believe some those who responded to you already just might actually even be some of the few, the remnants, the authentic disciples the Lord and Paul were teaching to us about. Not everyone I have gathered together with in fellowship in my home or theirs has been an authentic disciple including the old me. Thankfully, the God who dwells within me is making me into one. It is my prayer too that someday we will all be "perfectly one" and with will be "so that the world may know." It is not so much about what we do, how much of it we do, or how we do it, but more about who we become.
In agape love,
Michael
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Permalink Reply by Tammie on -
Hi Jacob, you wrote:
It's a healthy to question what you believe, and we all go through that period of our lives where we either agree with the truth that we are taught or revolt and form our own truth. (Not suggesting either is right)
I think this is the crux of your problem. You think the error you were taught is truth. Reading your posts it is obvious you have never brought the matter to God in prayer but have come to all these conclusions in the futility of your own mind.
It is NOT healthy to question and then determine your own truth, ask God to show you His Truth and He will.
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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Many have brought harm to others ... as they did to Jesus.
Wondering though, is hating them His response for us? Aren't we called to love others -- whether they be brother, friend, neighbor or "enemy"...? Didn't Jesus demonstrate the highest example for us, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" (& they certainly *seemed* to know what they were doing - they certainly seemed intentional enough in their choices, and should have "known better"... but didn't Jesus see past the conscious choices they were making ... didn't He see into their confusion, about who He was, and who they really were, and thus feel both love and forgiveness toward them...?).
I've come to believe that everyone is doing the best they know how to do ... based on what they currently believe. We can only walk in the Light we've been given ... and to respond in love (however He would lead us) while in this process with others who are confused ...
I just don't see that hate is an option -- and it's certainly not healthful nor helpful...
Shalom, Dena
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Permalink Reply by David Evans on -
John
I have come to view 99.99% of the leaders in the IC as good people who want to serve God and chose the only paths they knew open to them. They did not create this business form of Institional Church they operate in they simply could not see or never even considered any other form. Except for the crooks and scam artists that will always be around the majjority of them are very good, very sincere, hard working, people loving, Christ loving individuals. The business form of organized Church has been around for many centuries before they showed up. They and the congregants are good people doing their very best to serve God the best they know how. Not much different than you and I are doing our best.
I do agree that the modern structure is bad and fosters never maturing dependent followers. I also (for various and many reasons) think it wounds and destroys those that get involved in leadership circles. I do not like the structure but I cherish the many good people that are in it and do not blame them for centuries old inertia of bad ideas. I trust that God will lead them where they need to be and even if they never leave the flawed system He will create for them wonderful lives as long as they do the best they can to follow and serve Him.
Your brother
David
John Walker said:Jacob wrote: >>
Now I want to say something to John, I think you still be very careful by saying what God thinks of leaders. You replied completely out of anger towards leadership, so I really question why you end with "Your servant in Christ" when you just a few words ago called other brother "Morons, and deceivers" be very careful to cast your judgment on people who are ministering to God's people. I question where your heart is if you can't show love at all, because there was no love till your signature. I would hope you would look into your heart and seek out the anger before casting lies on people again. >>
John
Yes. You are absolutely correct. I do not love those who are attempting to destroy the work of God in the lives of his children. I hate the ferocious wolves who have climbed over the fence of the sheep pen and are savaging Jesus’ precious lambs. I am angry with the false apostles, prophets and teachers who have long had control of the church institutions and who are leading the people down paths that profit only themselves and their organisations. It is they who have made captive to their religious systems those who, with pure hearts, have sought to serve God and his people. I abhor the “shepherds” who are feeding only their own ambitions. These blots on our love-feasts are rampant within the “church” structures and I condemn them in the strongest possible terms.
I read of the glories of the Redemption that was purchased for us at the cost of Jesus’ blood. Then I look at the gross spiritual poverty that afflicts the church of today and my heart cries out to God “hasten your judgement upon these emissaries of Satan.”
What you are advocating is that we should love such as these, turn a blind eye to the damage they are doing to the Body of Christ, make excuses for them and allow them to continue on their evil ways unchecked and unopposed. At this point you and I have a very fundamental disagreement.
Your servant in Christ
John Walker
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Permalink Reply by Randy W. Jordan on -
Jacob:
You seem a bit less sincerely interested in answers than you do defending the status of the IC and helping “us” question what we are doing. You indicate that you “are not trying to speak down on the house movement its something that I've been looking into a lot”. However, it is painfully obvious, by what you written and the questions, you have done little reading regarding the issue. Perhaps you should start there, prayerfully looking at New Testament epistles (particularly Ephesians and Colossians) and then reading some contemporary authors on the subject like Frank Viola (I’d suggest your read his last three books backward in the order they were published:1-From Eternity to Here, 2-Reimagining Church, 3-Pagan Christianity) or the books by Tony & Felicity Dale (who established this site).
I won’t spend much time answering your specific questions, because Tom Lecompte, Chris Pridham, and Perfectly One did very nice job of that. I will say that the difference between the simple church/organic church/house church (SC/OC/HC) expression generally differs greatly from the traditional IC with small groups because of autonomy and leadership. The purpose of the SC/OC/HC is focused on the preeminence of Jesus as the Head of the church with every one functioning in their gifts or the gifts of the Holy Spirit under that Headship as administrated by the Holy Spirit. As one who has functioned in several IC expressions with small groups, my experience has been that small groups in that setting may indeed build better personal relationships than are ever possible in their “platform to spectator Sunday services”. However, the groups are still generally controlled by a pastoral agenda with an approved leader and , again “generally” turn into little more that smaller expressions of Sunday in a home. Oh, there may be a bit more discussion in Bible Study, but the focus is rarely on giving the Holy Spirit free reign in Body ministry.
With that said let me suggest that in order to fully comprehend the difference and passion that many of us have will require the Holy Spirit to shake your paradigm. I, nor anyone, will be able to convince or persuade you until He, that leads us into all truth opens your eyes and gives you a case of “heartburn” for being His body, the church, the fullness of Him who fills all in all Ephesians 1:22-:23
Back in the mid 80’s the Holy Spirit first began to shake my paradigm, after 12 or 14 years in the faith. He began to give me some revelation regarding God’s purpose in the church beyond salvation. At that time nobody talked about the “eternal purposes” of God, or spoke of the difference between “going” to church and “being” the church. And when I, for one, did there were few who had ears to hear and fewer with a heart to understand. I began to have serious vision for what God’s eternal purposes were in the church, and regarding the preeminence of Jesus as Head of His corporate Body and the power and mission entrusted to His corporate Body the church as He shook my foundations a bit.
As someone trained with a traditional understanding of pastoral leadership in a traditional setting, you will not ever understand the SC/OC/HC movement/concept unless, and until, the Holy Spirit shatters your preconceived notions of church and the mindset that has brought you to it. If He does so, it will be because He reveals it as much more than just an alternative form of meeting. Now, in saying that I am not saying you or the IC (institutional church) are wrong. You may be right where God wants you, at least for now. I am simply saying I, and obviously others, have seen something else revealed, a different biblical template. Another facet of what Peter called the manifold grace of God (1st Peter 4), if you will. This template does involve an alternative form of meeting, and that template for gathering is one that I (we) believe has a far more biblical foundation than the platform to spectator form that is currently embraced by most of the IC in the western culture. But the alternative form of meeting is not the issue. The desire for an alternative form of meeting flows out of something much deeper than that. It flows from a different understanding of Gods purposes.
You see this new SC/OC/HC movement, which really is as old as Paul and Peter, isn’t really about just an alternative form of meeting, church polity, or ecclesiology. All those things may be involved. However, it is about a complete change in mindset based in a revelation (or at least new biblical interpretation) of the eternal purposes of God bound up in Jesus, and the resulting corporate servant of God established in the church.
I personally believe, just as this mystery, for the most part, was hidden in Christ by the Father until Paul was gifted to reveal it, primarily in Ephesians and Colossians. So has it again been wrapped up and hidden for some time now, covered over by traditions the church has functioned under for hundreds of years, until the present time.
I believe we have come to the end or the times of refreshing Peter spoke of in Acts 3:19 and that we are now entering that “period of restoration of all things” he spoke about in Acts 3:21. As a result the revealing and understanding of these eternal purposes in the church is being brought to light again. Jesus is about to be revealed, and in fact is being revealed in His Body, the church, in an unprecedented way.
You see, the IC has focused on a “personal” savior and winning individuals to faith. There is nothing wrong with that. I thank God for it. But that is not all there is in the eternal purposes of God in the Son He loves. It is not the complete gospel. The Father had far greater purposes in sending His Son, beyond providing a personal savior.
You see, simply stated, our mission is not just to win the lost. Our mission is to literally “reveal” Jesus as a corporate entity/servant in the earth and be a people for Gods own possession in Him. We are to be the fullness of Him who fills all in all (Ephesians 1:22-23), a chosen race/generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people /people for God’s own possession ( 1st Peter 2:9) Foundationally we need to have our eyes opened to the eternal purposes of God in the church.
If we look at the Old and New covenants and break them down foundationally, they both worked toward the same ends, but in different ways. God has always desired a people with whom he could be comfortable, holy as He is holy. He has desired a people that are in “right relationship” with Him, if you will. He has also desired a people who would be obedient to His word and given to His purposes. The thing about this “obedience” aspect is that He has not desired a people who were relating to Him on the basis of rule and regulation or fear and intimidation.
In the Old covenant we worked at right relationship through obedience. The only way to be righteous was to obey the Law. In the New covenant (in Jesus) we have been given right relationship, that we might learn, mature and grow in obedience. The end of both covenants: Right relationship and obedience/being given to His purposes.
Before the foundation of the world our Sovereign God had a plan for drawing to Himself just such a people. In the Garden of Eden, there were three kinds of trees. There were trees that bore fruit and were good for food. God said we could eat freely from those. Then there was at the center of the Garden, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God said we should not take of it lest we die. That tree set up the covenant of the law and rule and regulation and by it came the penalty of death. Then, there was the tree of life, about which God said nothing, because the perfect cannot be commanded. It was God’s desire for the man to come to and choose the tree of life. That tree is there in Genesis, it is there in Ezekiel, and it is in Revelation. It is Jesus.
Why is the tree of life significant? Because God has desired a people of faith, those who come to Him, not out of intimidation, but love; believing that He is, that He is good and rewards those who diligently seek Him. (Hebrews 11:6). Like any good Father, God’s desire was not to have children (or a people) that would honor and obey only from intimidation. Look, nothing would have been easier for an omnipotent God than occasionally showing us His awesome power in some fashion to motivate us to His purposes out of fear and intimidation. He who spoke the universe into existence would have no problem revealing Himself in such a fashion, say in just shouting audibly “just watch this” and then showing us perhaps the occasional solar flare or something even more spectacular and earth altering. But that is not what He desired. He wants us to choose Him as He reveals the full measure of His love for us in Jesus. The Kingdom principle revealed through all 6 chapters of Ephesians particularly (not to mention Colossians, and Genesis to Revelation for that matter) is “submission gained by love” (my term). The world and our adversary’s way is submission gained by intimidation. God’s way is submission gained by love. As He reveals the fullness of His love through the Son, Jesus who submitted to the Father in love for Him and us, and humbled Himself from the effluence of the glory of being God the Son to take on the form a man, a bondservant, and die the lowest of all deaths on a criminal’s cross (Philippians 2:6-7), He wins our submission to His Lordship and eternal plans as we become a part of His body, the church the fullness of Him who fills all in all (Ephesians 1:13-11, and 18-23. If we reject the revelation of His love, we choose to remain outside His body and being lifted out of judgment (John 316-18). The choice was there in the Garden; it is here today, because the perfect cannot be commanded. He wants to us to choose to be His as He draws us by the revelation of His love. This is the picture of Christ and the church is also seen in the biblical template for marriage, as a husband loves His wife as Christ loves the church and gave Himself up for her, and she submits (becomes subordinate, not inferior to) because she is secure in the love of her husband.
The ultimate glory of God is that He is Sovereign God! And through His eternal purposes in His Son, He has redeemed for Himself a people for God’s own possession, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, a bride, a holy habitation, a people with whom He can be comfortable and dwell with. And He done it through submission gained by love fully manifest in Jesus.
This kind of understanding leads to a mindset regarding God’s purposes that goes far beyond just knowing a personal savior. You see as the church, His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all we are tied into the purposes of God in Jesus. No one of us can fully reveal Jesus. However corporately we are to do just that. We are to reveal Jesus to one another, to the world around us, and in a mind- boggling turn, to principalities and powers in high places.
The death, burial, and resurrection of Christ Jesus and His ascension and exaltation, and the subsequent sending of The Helper – The Holy Spirit, resulted in the exaltation of the Church as well. Now, I don’t mean exaltation in the sense that we, the local church, are to be worshiped. I just mean that when Jesus was here He could be in one place at one time. The Church consisted of a few followers and disciples without complete understanding of their commission, authority, and without the power He said would come with the Holy Spirit (as witnessed in Acts 2). When He ascended that changed. He left a compliment of Himself, His Body - the Church that, with the Helper, could manifest His presence and power in many places and go “into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation” (Mark16: 15). And this manifestation of Himself was intended to do “even greater works…because I go to the Father” (John 14:12). The nature of the Church changed, and the Holy Spirit was given as a Helper.
Ephesians 1:18-21 Paul says: I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and seated Him at His right hand in heavenly places far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come.
Note Paul wanted us to understand the “riches of His inheritance in the saints“. In order for an inheritance to be received, there must be a death! Jesus’ death did deliver to you and me an inheritance. But, more important was that it brought God the Father an inheritance and …it is us!!!! His rich inheritance is in the saints. It is us…the Church.
This begs the question of why he would consider us such a prize. Note, that Paul wants us to also understand “what is the surpassing greatness of His power to us who believe” as well. In the death burial, resurrection, ascension of Christ, and the subsequent sending of the Holy Spirit to the Church, The Father was bringing about His eternal purposes in Christ to show and manifest His power in us. As the first fruits of the restoration of all creation, He would exhibit His power and kingdom in and through us. His rule and authority, as well as His power are to be seen in us as those redeemed from the fall. We reveal Jesus! We reveal Him to each other, to the world, and to principalities and powers in high places. His Lordship and victory are exhibited in us.
Ephesians 1:22 & 23 Paul says “And He (God) put all things in subjection under His (Jesus) feet and gave Him (Jesus) as head over all things to the church (His rule and reign, Kingdom is to be seen first in us) which is His body (a physical vessel for his presence..), the fullness of Him who fills all in all.”
We, the Church, are to be “the fullness of Him who fills all in all”. We are the physical manifestation of Christ on the face of the planet. Under His Headship and with the Help/Power of the Holy Spirit, we are His body (the arms - hands - feet – voice), the body of the Living Christ. We are the vehicle and the instrument through which He will impact the world and accomplish His purposes! He is to be revealed anytime we come together and through our relationships to each other.
We must understand that the outcome and fate of the world does not rest in the actions of mad men Ayatollahs, the economy, governments or any other such thing or institution. The outcome and fate of the world rest in the purpose of God! And we, His Church, are at the center or that purpose! These insane Muslims and wars and economic factors are a part of the consequences of the times, but the prime determining factor on the face of the planet is the Church!!!! “The fullness of Him who fills all in all”! There is no second string, and no backup plan. We are whom He intends to manifest His glory and power in and accomplish His purposes through.
We must take this identity seriously and commit to impacting a lost world as Jesus did, and wants to do now through us! Most of the Church is in a state of not recognizing who she is nor the surpassing greatness of His power that is to be manifest in her. As William Booth and Keith Green put so well, the Church, for the most part, is Asleep In The Light. Most believers are happy just to go to church, unconcerned with being the Church. Enjoying life saved and redeemed, but without passion to reveal Jesus to those perishing around them. Most believers are rarely if ever concerned with provoking the guy in front of them or beside them in the pew to join them in revealing Jesus in any practical way to others, let alone principalities and powers. The priesthood of believers has been replaced by the shallowness of one man in a pulpit, and the church is worse off, for most believers know little of Body ministry or having a sensitivity to flow in the Spirit as stewards of gifts the Spirit may administrate through them functioning under the Headship of Jesus.
The purpose and plan of God was not to just to save us out of judgment and be our personal savior! Yes that is there, but He has saved us unto purposes all His own. That eternal purpose of God is far, far deeper. It is sewn up in His Son, Jesus who died to deliver an "inheritance in the saints" (Ephesians 1:18) to the Father and establish a corporate expression of Himself on the earth. We the church, as we function in relationship to each other and in mission (at His direction) to the world around us, are to literally give a physical Body to and reveal Jesus to each other and to the world around us. We are to be the "fullness of Him who fills all in all" (Ephesians 1:22-23)
The IC (again not all, but most expressions) has missed making disciples who understand and embrace God's purpose and mission for the church. Lately the IC has turned to a modern "consumerism" approach. It has been reduced to offering programs for this and that and the other. People "come to church to get" not to give themselves to His purposes and service. The church is trying to meet needs for this and that, rather than make disciples. As a result we end up with extra-biblical offices and ministries like "children’s ministers" "youth pastors" "worship pastors" all of which usurp the place believers should hold in their homes and the Body. All this turns us more and more into spectators of what comes from a platform and consumers of programs rather than stewards of the manifold grace of God in Body ministry to one another. The one man pastorate, in particular, and associated hierarchy has crushed the "royal priesthood " of believers and left us happy to pay professionals for our once or twice a week feedings. It however has also damaged the church and her mission by leaving the church without the whole counsel of "apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers" (Ephesians 4:11-12) and thereby sorely unequipped for the work of ministry. Don't get me wrong; there is nothing the matter with meeting someone’s need, particularly those of the lost. But for believers the basis for getting your needs met is by being in a wonderful relationship with the God who is more than enough, and His Body of believers.
Look, God has used the IC, but the structure and hierarchy is patently not biblical and greatly thwarts the kinds of relationships that plug us into the true purposes of God that come when the church (ecclesia -the called out ones), His body gets focused on being "the fullness of Him who fills all in all."
When we gather may we be focused on "being the church" not just "going to church" May we get beyond our "personal savior"(not that is a bad thing) and grow corporately " to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." (Ephesians 4:13) May we grow in the kind of committed relationships, love, and sense of purpose, and manifest the kind of ministry before Him and to one another, so that He is revealed in our midst in power and grace to us and to the world around us. May we leave a gathering, not talking about having heard good preaching or having met with each other, but talking about having seen Him! May we leave having given Him the preeminence as Head of the church, and inspired by His having been present to provoke and encourage us in His purposes, not just looking forward to the next "meeting".
May He bless you as you seek Him in fellowship with those you gather with. May He draw you into chasing hard after Him to be the church, His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
gratefully redeemed,
Randy Jordan
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Permalink Reply by Randy W. Jordan on
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Jacob:
I wanted to add just a little input regarding church polity (government/leadership structure.)
You wrote: Also, once you start to grow leadership is organic and is natural, for example Moses was the head of Israel, all the Judges were head of Israel, the High priest that God establish was in charge of the church, and Paul was the head of the church of Antioch. So saying that headship is wrong... please don't say that because its a lie.
It’s a lie,! Those are strong words. May I suggest what you perceive as a lie is a matter of personal interpretation. You see your conclusion that Old Testament types speak to current local church government is just a bit off the mark. The examples of Moses, who is actually a type of Christ (not a one man pastorate), and the Judges who were a type of local elders (not a one man pastorate with a board) cannot be applied to support most current IC polity. Most current IC polity is patently non-biblical. It has much more to do education and personal charisma than God’s plan or structure outlined in the New Testament scriptures or Old Testament types.
God is not now , nor has He ever been, looking for gifted men or even those , so called, well educated. The light of the scriptures show us He is looking for the faithful man. He does not need the so called gifted or charismatic personality man, because He can gift anyone. He does not need those so called well educated by man, because it is His education and revelation through His Holy Spirit that matter. You must only look at whom Jesus chose as His disciples to see this. He took 12 losers, uneducated fishermen – tax gatherers –subversives, and turned the world upside down. Paul who was well educated, called himself the least of apostles. Then he indicated that all that he had before that was called good (including his Pharisaical education, and standing a Jewish leader) was dung compared to knowing Jesus. (Philippians 3:5-9)
No one I know would say that Headship is wrong. Our argument would be just “Who” that Head is. The scriptures never call any man,( not a pastor –not an apostle- not a prophet- not a teacher or an evangelist) the head of the church or any local expression of the church. And the new testament epistles point only to elders (episkopas) as those charged with oversight of the church. And it most often appears they moved in plurality or collegiality, not alone. These positions were offices (as a opposed to ministries) which were gained by character qualities outlined in Timothy and Titus. There is a difference between an office and a ministry gift.
Paul was not the Head of the church at Antioch! He didn’t even establish the church there. When he first came to Antioch, in fact, He was being trained as a disciple by Barnabas! ( read Acts 11) Up until Acts 13:42 it is Barnabas and Saul….. as Paul was trained by Barnabas, who had initially defended his conversion to the elders at Jerusalem. In Acts 13 after some training at Antioch and then more travel and training with Barnabas, it shifts to Paul and Barnabas as Paul takes his standing in ministry.
Paul understood and taught that there is one Head of church, and that Head is Jesus :
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. Colossians 1:18
Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself {being} the Savior of the body. Ephesians 5:23
And He (God) put all things in subjection under His(Jesus) feet, and gave Him (Jeusu) as head over all things to the church, Epehsians 1:22
speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all {aspects} into Him who is the head, {even} Christ,Ephesians 4:15
Paul was an apostle given as a gift (Ephesians 4:11) to the church (universal), planting/establishing local expressions of the body. As such he sometimes was involved in appointing/recognizing local elders, but did not appoint “heads”.
You wrote: So don't use the idea that just because 'your' not in full control of the group that Christ can't work because that seems like a selfish spirit and prideful spirit 'if I don't have full control for Jesus, then Jesus can't work" that is rubbish
No one I know is calling for the right for themselves to bein full control of a group. Anything but actually. In fact, that indictment should go to the one man pastor in the IC. What I/we are calling for is the restoration and recognition of the true Head of the church (Jesus) and the priesthood of believers. We are calling for an understand of the need for a the release of believers to minister to one another and the world around them. We are calling for the release of Ephesians 4:11-12 ministry gifts to be free to equip the church for the work of service, not placed under the thumb a “Pastor”. Particularly when the term Pastor (poimem – used only in Ephesians 4) has been, at worst grossly twisted and distorted, and at the least highly wrongly defined and misunderstood.
What is rubbish is how the Headship of Jesus, the priesthood of believers and body ministry have been usurped and replaced by controlling hierarchy and men protecting and exalting “their ministry and position”. You read the scriptures and explain how 1st Corinthians 14:26, or the whole chapter or letter for that matter, got reduced down to platform ministry to spectators. No wonder the church has become so ineffective in the gospel and discipleship and is treated in our culture as salt that has lost it’s savor and is trampled underfoot.
You wrote : Now leadership, I would really like a pool to ask people who truly think that leadership is bad. If people said yes, I think I would just tell them to read the Bible, because there is leadership from Moses all the way to Paul, John, and Peter. Let’s just look at Paul's writings, "And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ." (Eph 4:11, 12) As we see Christ set up leadership to help the body of Christ to equip them for ministry and to build up the body so why again is leadership bad?
Again, nobody I know would argue that leadership is bad, but that the current form/structure as seen most of the IC is not biblical. Your very question here reveals a great deal about the misunderstanding of church polity (government) that does exists. Your understanding is just one glaring example.
You regard the Ephesians 4 ministry “gifts” to the church as leadership. They aren’t! They are just what the scripture says, men who are gifts to the church, whose purpose is not to rule the church, but to equip it. Each of these 5 gifts have a defined ministry, and the end purpose is equipping the church for the work of ministry. They are to equip saints for ministry to one another and the world around us so that we might grow individually, but more importantly corporately in maturity into the full stature of the man Christ Jesus, and that He might be revealed to us and the world around us through us. The equipping is to put us in a place to function as His body, the church, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
The Ephesians 4 ministry gifts intent is not “leadership/ruler-ship”, but equipping the body under the Headship of Christ. They do not belong on pedestals, they are just brothers/sisters who have been gifted by our Sovereign God and given to the church for equipping purposes They function more like the nervous, circulatory and respiratory systems of the Body functioning under the Head, but almost not noticed in terms of identity, because identity/glory belong to the Head
Today most of these gifts are grossly mis-defined and misrepresented in the church. In fact in most IC expressions they are just not released. Rather than go into definitions of these ministry gifts and associated problems here., I’ll refer you to the “foundations” page “recognition and release of ministry gifts to the church” at basicsfellowhip.com, if you have interest on my perspective and more information.
Church Headship/leadership is reserved for Jesus alone. He is perfectly able to administrate government in His body through the Holy Spirit that is in us. The New Testament template does mention and point to Elders (episkopas) to give oversight for protection and deal with problems when they may arise. But these elders do not lord-it-over anyone. They also do not belong on pedestals. They are simply brothers who rise to the office organically and are recognized as those having the character qualities outlined in Timothy and Titus with passion to serve Him and His own. They should function in collegiality, or at least plurality. They, by far and in large, exist in the background unless and until a “policing” action is required by a problem in the body.
Before we label any perspective a lie. Let’s first give a hard look at that perspective in that light of the truth of His word, and under the prayerful instruction of Him (the Holy Spirit) that leads us into all truth.
May the Lord give you grace as you seek to grow in Him!
Gratefully redeemed,
Randy Jordan
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Permalink Reply by David Evans on
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Brother John
I would just ask you to consider - IF you and I are correct. [ The Institional Church is a corruption of God's design] Then that places a burden of revelation on us that others do not have. In some sense, IF we are correct in that ONE SMALL AREA you and I are more MATURE than the majority of Christians that are currently on the face of the earth concerning this topic. Below are the scriptures that speak to christians when they are right and when they are more mature. Please consider them as you consider your brethren, Gods other sons and daughters who are still in a system that was devised long before they were born and was the only option they have ever known
1 Thess 5:14b -18 Take TENDER care of those who are WEAK. Be PATIENT with EVERYONE. See that no one pays back evil for evil, but always try to do good to each other and to all people. Always be joyful. Never stop praying. Be thankful in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you who belong to Christ Jesus
Romans 14:1-10 ACCEPT other believers who are weak in faith, and DON'T ARGUE with them about what they think is right or wrong.......WHO ARE YOU TO CONDEMN someone else’s servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so LET HIM judge whether they are right or wrong. And with the Lord’s help, they will do what is right and will receive his approval....... For we don’t live for ourselves or die for ourselves. If we live, it’s to honor the Lord. And if we die, it’s to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. Christ died and rose again for this very purpose—to be Lord both of the living and of the dead. So why do you condemn another believer? WHY DO YOU LOOK DOWN on another believer? REMEMBER, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
John Walker said:David,
I don’t think that we can debate the statistics as I don’t know of any survey that has been done on the subject. My estimate would be somewhat different, probably not a lot, but that cannot be verified either.
However, what is not in doubt, at least among most of those on SimpleChurch.com, is the devastating effect these enemy agents have had and are having upon the church, whatever their percentage may be.
In any human organisation, the individuals that most frequently rise to the top are those that are ambitious for positions of status and power and who have somewhat more than a touch of ruthlessness in their dealings with potentials rivals. In business organisations this is generally considered to be the norm and is, indeed, encouraged as these are often the types of people considered most suitable to drive companies forward in a competitive marketplace.
Church organisations, far from being exceptions to this rule, are some of the most glaring examples
Many who feel the call of Jesus to “feed my lambs” enter the church institutions thinking that is what they will be empowered to do.
"Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ." (Ephesians 4:14-15)
Having graduated from Bible Schools and Seminaries, the little faith they may have left is quickly challenged as they find themselves in the thick of the infighting, jockeying for position and politicking that is at the heart of these organisations. They either compromise their calling, leave in disgust or sit it out until retirement. The best of them do the little they can for the people to whom they are called to point the way towards maturity in Christ. In this environment those false brethren who are working towards fulfilling their own ambitions find it easy to manipulate and push aside those who they see as weak and lacking the ruthless drive to get ahead. Thus they have become the main force driving the direction of these “church” institutions.
Your servant in Christ
John Walker
David Evans said:John
I have come to view 99.99% of the leaders in the IC as good people who want to serve God and chose the only paths they knew open to them. They did not create this business form of Institional Church they operate in they simply could not see or never even considered any other form. Except for the crooks and scam artists that will always be around the majjority of them are very good, very sincere, hard working, people loving, Christ loving individuals. The business form of organized Church has been around for many centuries before they showed up. They and the congregants are good people doing their very best to serve God the best they know how. Not much different than you and I are doing our best.
I do agree that the modern structure is bad and fosters never maturing dependent followers. I also (for various and many reasons) think it wounds and destroys those that get involved in leadership circles. I do not like the structure but I cherish the many good people that are in it and do not blame them for centuries old inertia of bad ideas. I trust that God will lead them where they need to be and even if they never leave the flawed system He will create for them wonderful lives as long as they do the best they can to follow and serve Him.
Your brother
David
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