Simple Church and Universal Salvation... is this a growing epidemic?
After the Jerome conspiracy thread, I am realizing that there are some people on this forum who are bringing in all sorts of heresies into the Simple Church movement.
I have noticed these people are not asking honest questions for honest answers, but rather trying to spread a preconceived message.
I've also met others in Canada from friends of mine in the simple church/house church movement that are beginning to believer in Universal salvation.
As one person pointed out, the people who bought Jerome Conspiracy also bought Pagan Christianity... which means house churchers are turning into universalists.
If this was because these are baby believers working out their doctrine and salvation it is one thing... but the majority in the house church movement who are spreading this message are mature longterm believers.
This is why in my opinion elders must be established.
Yes, there is no differnece between clergy and laity, yes there is no hierarchy, however we NEED ELDERS!
This epidemic of universalism needs to be squashed out by both the elders and by the new apostolic foundations that are built.
Sorry if this sounds strong.... but it saddens me that the house church movement in the West (as someone speaking from the East who does not have this epedimical problem)....has this problem.
I have noticed these people are not asking honest questions for honest answers, but rather trying to spread a preconceived message.
I've also met others in Canada from friends of mine in the simple church/house church movement that are beginning to believer in Universal salvation.
As one person pointed out, the people who bought Jerome Conspiracy also bought Pagan Christianity... which means house churchers are turning into universalists.
If this was because these are baby believers working out their doctrine and salvation it is one thing... but the majority in the house church movement who are spreading this message are mature longterm believers.
This is why in my opinion elders must be established.
Yes, there is no differnece between clergy and laity, yes there is no hierarchy, however we NEED ELDERS!
This epidemic of universalism needs to be squashed out by both the elders and by the new apostolic foundations that are built.
Sorry if this sounds strong.... but it saddens me that the house church movement in the West (as someone speaking from the East who does not have this epedimical problem)....has this problem.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Sean Steckbeck on -
The apostolic team that plants the gospel/discipleship movement (through man of peace) establishes people into maturity (relationship with God and others, love, missional, holiness and character,good doctrine, etc) and later ordains elders among them.
Elders are ordained, elders do not take the place of particapatory meetings or seekers or new disciples genuine questions and journey.... however, elders should be bouncers of heretics (just like the early Judaizers and Gnostics needed bouncing).
There is a distict difference between a new believer that discusses his new weird doctrine that just needs help in his search in the scriptures and between someone who comes to spy out and bring knowingly bad doctrine to lead away new sheep who are given freedom to search out good doctrine (rather than being spoonfed).
As leaders who are planting foundational movements, we are going to have to deal with the issue of heretics who spy out the freedom of Messiah and cults who bring bad doctrine.
IMHO, Universal salvation is one of those doctrines who need bouncers.
If a new sheep brings it up, he should be allowed to talk, helped in his journey for truth, etc.
If an older believer comes into a new sheep plant and uses the open participatory meeting to promote his preknown Universal Salvation doctrine and lead away the sheep;.... he needs to be bounced by the elders as a heretic who is taking advantage of the sheep's freedom in their journey to develop good doctrine.
I'm sorry, this doctrine should not be put up with.
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Permalink Reply by chiefer on -
I hope not. There are some "...ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16). Universalism is a real heresy with a capital H. They think that God is love and love only, but deny that Hi is righteous and just even in His love.
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on -
I used to believe that universal salvation was wrong - and I fought against it vehemently. I still have the posts on a discussion list where I did so until a couple of years ago, LOL!
But that was before I decided to seriously study it -- to make it go away.
What I discovered in my studies completely challenged me, disturbed me, shook me to the core, and eventually, even painfully, changed my understanding.
Rather than dismissing this in a knee-jerk fashion -- let each one explore it for themselves (Truth can withstand any amount of scrutiny -- only falsehood must be maintained). Let each one go with the Holy Spirit into this isue for themselves, studying it, praying through it, searching the Scriptures thoroughly, seeking out history deeply -- and come to their own conclusion.
All this talk of "bouncing" and "squashing" is more akin to the language of the Nazi's -- based on groundless fears, propaganda, and not trusting the Holy Spirit to lead us each (& all) into all truth. We've had enough of the fruits of this way of fear-based, controlling thinking: burning of "heretics (heresy is in the eye of the beholder -- Christianity was once deemed to be heresy), the Crusades, the Inquisition, Catholics and Protestants killing each other, and yes, the Holocaust (I say this as the wife of a Jew, and the mother of 8 half-Jewish children).
Go fearlessly with Jesus into anything, as He leads. He knows how to guide, to teach, to lead, to keep from deception.
Or, do we instead cling to the traditions of man, not trusting Him to lead...?
Go where He leads -- trust Him.
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."
"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."
"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Permalink Reply by Tammie on -
Sean,
I am not a universalist but I strongly disagree with the idea of stomping out heresies. I think if there is any lesson in church history it would be that the false doctrines of championing orthodoxy and heresy don't work. IMHO the church went south when it's "leaders" moved from following the Way to defining correct belief and doctrine.
Who gets saved and how and where they go when they die is in God's realm, not ours. How can we even call anything to do with the afterlife a "doctrine" anyway? It's all interpretation and speculation. If the people of the simple house church want to squash heretics and raise their various banners of the one and only truth they might as well save themselves the trouble, read the history books and then join the denomination of their choice.
We seem to be missing the lesson God gave us in his chosen family. The Jewish people can't kick somebody out of Judaism because they believe something outside the party line, they'll still be Jewish. We have got to learn that we are all a family and sit down at the table in the name of Christ and agree to disagree with the wacky relatives we love ( and I'm not calling universalists wacky...I'm just say'n....;)
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Permalink Reply by chiefer on
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[my previous message was not saved correctly]
I hope not. There are some "...ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16). It may be because many house church people were hurting by clergy or institutionalism and the like to receive only love-message unconditionaly. Then they believe that God is love and love only, but deny that Hi is righteous and just even in His love.
Universalism is without doubt a real heresy with a capital H.
I am presently reading excelent John Bevere's book "Driven by Eternity". It's good panaceum for universalist and easy-grace teaching and also real and honest warning for believers to not treat Jesus words lightly. We need to speak Truth in love, even harsh truth.
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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Alaska quoted:
2 Cor. 11:4 (NKJ)
4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!
What if, just what if, the gospel we now have and spread (which came from the very same IC we're all leaving, having been duped by it), is in fact a different gospel from that which Jesus taught, and from which Paul preached...?
What if the teachings of the corrupt IC are also ... corrupt..?
What if...?
I'm simply advocating that each one study for themselves, rather than continuing to swallow that which the IC we're rejecting fed us for millennia ... come to your own conclusions, with Jesus, who is both Guide and Goal.
Shalom, Dena
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Permalink Reply by Joseph Cartwright on -
Hey Sean,
I agree that elders are badly needed. Those who can refute unsound doctrine are becoming less common. We have chased away a few heresies in our region. We weren't heresy hunting. These were brought in by wolves with dangerous agendas. They found us and the Spirit gave us wisdom to protect the flock. Keep to the faith Bro. I appreciate your perspective.
Joy,
Joseph
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Permalink Reply by Chris Sterling on -
Sean,
Why are you teaching Mormon doctrines on this web site. Is the simple church moving into Mormonism.
This epidemic of Mormonism needs to be squashed out by both the elders and by the new apostolic foundations that are built.
Really do we need to be calling each other names?
Labeling the thoughts of others into certain doctrines does not make it so. This is not a practice that leads to discovering Christ together. For myself I do not believe the popular doctrine that has been called Universalism. I do believe that Christ has brought everything in creation back to himself. We can explore what that "brought everything back" means.
Col.1:20 God was also pleased to bring everything on earth and in heaven back to himself through Christ. He did this by making peace through Christ's blood sacrificed on the cross.
C a brother who lives on the east coast
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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With all due respect, Alaska -- you're agreeing with two conflicting positions here.
I say (& you agreed), that everyone should be free to study and discuss all things, trusting in the Guidance of the Spirit.
Sean said (& you agreed), that *some* things should be not only not studied, but "bounced" & "squashed".
Shalom, Dena
Alaska said:Amen!
Those who can refute unsound doctrine are becoming less common.
I do agree! Yes we do have to be dilligent, alert for the adversary comes in like a lion looking for whom he can devour.
We need to be steadfast in the faith. Exactly I've seen wolves in the IC. I've felt God made it clear to me but the leadership did not want to listen so the wolves are still there to this day. Wolves are very dangerous esp. to baby Christians.
Joseph Cartwright said:Hey Sean,
I agree that elders are badly needed. Those who can refute unsound doctrine are becoming less common. We have chased away a few heresies in our region. We weren't heresy hunting. These were brought in by wolves with dangerous agendas. They found us and the Spirit gave us wisdom to protect the flock. Keep to the faith Bro. I appreciate your perspective.
Joy,
Joseph
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Permalink Reply by Marshall Diakon on -
Kevin Kane has written:
"Why would anyone presume all would want to be reconciled to God?"
Yes. And, what Father and Son achieve together in reconciling all things may not parse with typical human expectations. Why, if I can reconcile myself with high fuel prices by riding a bicycle...
Sean, apostles (often as elders themselves) handled heresies, deficits and other anomalies pretty well (as much as we can know from the historical record). But, this was quite a secondary action, because the best preparation against false doctrine and foolish praxis is a living, abiding ekklesia (simple church). a.k.a. "May you all do better than was done at Corinth." If elders (olders) are to be appointed, they are appointed to some purpose (as an overseer, under-shepherd...). No small matter to accomplish, according to the writings we received through Paul's hand. Try as we may, we cannot ourselves force-create elders for our common needs. Therefore, we petition God.
Tammie has written:
"We seem to be missing the lesson God gave us in his chosen family. The Jewish people can't kick somebody out of Judaism because they believe something outside the party line, they'll still be Jewish. We have got to learn that we are all a family and sit down at the table in the name of Christ and agree to disagree with the wacky relatives we love"
Christ is greater than Moses. Although we have, in Christ, grace to much authority... We do gotta learn that we are family; the only family we now truly ever have as our own. "Wacky"? If we are beside ourselves, it is of God.
Dena has written:
"What if, just what if, the gospel we now have and spread (which came from the very same IC we're all leaving, having been duped by it), is in fact a different gospel from that which Jesus taught, and from which Paul preached...?"
It most often is, while Universalism does not hold the missing pieces or any fix.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Sterling on
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Claudia,
You have expressed your interpretation, that many theologians can and have argue a different way. I respect your view of what Paul might have been saying to the church. But your view is not the only supported view nor is my view the only supported view. But we are still brothers and sisters in spite of our different views. To me this is the beauty of the Simple Church - we can rest in the unity and oneness that Christ has brought us into and we can en devour to keep it and stop trying to get it.
C
Claudia Labrador said:Col 1:20 Speaks not of God's method to reconcile Himself to man, BUT rather the Way in which God has allowed man a path to reconcile to Him. Also...in complete context, we must look further down into the following passages....Take NOTE that Col 1:23 begins with "IF"... This suggests it is conditional... conditional upon what, I ask?
I love how Scripture continues to be used (out of context) to make a non-Scriptural point. Whazzup with that?! My slant on bringing this to light has absolutely nothing at all to do with IC...
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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These verses are being used out of context.
(Further, it's interesting to note that you had to rely on modern and paraphrased translations, rather than checking with the original meanings of the verses.)
In the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus --
They managed to fool some regarding the resurrection of the dead -- saying that it (which incuded the Day of Judgment and the return of Jesus) had already happened.
How is it that they fooled anyone, IF Paul were teaching what we hear taught today -- that the earth & universe would literally burrn and melt away, and that all the ungodly would be destroyed...?
No one would be fooled -- and Paul would be able to counter it by saying, "Hey guys, look out the window -- we're all still here -- the earth and universe are still here." Instead, he had to reassure them that it hadn't yet happened (although they all believed that they were indeed living in the last days ... and John says that they were in the last hour).
Whatever Paul was teaching about the end of the age, the Day of Judgment, and the resurrection of the dead --- it had to have been something similar to what Hymemaeus and Philetus were teaching, in order to fool anyone. Whatever Paul was teaching thus had to be quite different from what we hear taught today.
(this matters, and it very much affects how we thus render the many passages you quoted ... those verses weren't meant for all people of all time -- but for those people, in that time, for a particular reason that no longer applies to us.)
Shalom, Dena
Rick Knock said:Sean,
That's not strong... this is strong:
Titus 1:10-11 NLT
For there are many rebellious people who engage in useless talk and deceive others. This is especially true of those who insist on circumcision for salvation. They must be silenced, because they are turning whole families away from the truth by their false teaching.
2 Timothy 2:17-18 NLT
This kind of talk spreads like cancer, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus. They have left the path of truth, claiming that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; in this way, they have turned some people away from the faith.
Galatians 1:9 NLT
I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed.
Galatians 5:12 NIV
As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 NLT
These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.
God Bless!
Rick
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