The Elephant in the Chapel
And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Matt 24:11-13
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock...fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. Act 20:28-30
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons... 1 Tim 4:1
But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power... 2 Tim 3:1-5
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words... 2 Pet 2:1-3a
Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come... 1 Jn 2:18
But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions." Jude 17
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. 1 Jn 5:21
The Elephant in the Chapel
I find myself at this SimpleChurch.com website for what I am guessing would be a typical reason motivating people who make their way here: to explore notions of what the church really is and whether it can be found in so-called “simple expressions,” or perhaps more usually, the house church. One distinct difference from most other folks finding their way here (I do not say “all other folks”—there is nothing new under the sun) which I might bring to these discussions is that I and my family have been with a house church for the last 12 years, and I have been primed for it for more than a few years beyond the last 12. My understanding of the church is such that if the real thing does exist, it certainly does not exist in any notions or, more importantly, practices we have of it, whether it be the institutional church OR the house or simple church.
Let me state unequivocally that I do believe the real thing exists, but I have to say that at this point my construct has been deconstructed, and what I am writing is my own attempt to either find a new construct, or perhaps better, learn to live without one. By construct I mean: A concept or theory devised to integrate in an orderly way the diverse data on a phenomenon. I believe I pulled that definition off the Web awhile back, and interestingly, found it to be connected in some respects to another psychological term: cognitive dissonance. This latter term had been used to explain the resultant behaviors of people in the aftermath of “The Great Disappointment”. If you’re not familiar with it, well, google it. It’s just one of many examples of the follies of date-setting the return of Christ, but more to the point of my musings, it is a good example of what we do when we find that things aren’t quite working out the way our constructs say they should be working out. Thus with church, we have an understanding of the way things should be, but then we start to learn either a different theology or more of the heart of God (the two not necessarily being the same thing!) and we come to see our constructs collapsing upon us. And so, here are many of us at this website who have left the ruins of our constructs of the institutional church. Ah, but what then, when you see the ruins of your construct of the house church around you?
I will now say unequivocally that this last statement is by no means an indictment of any of the brethren with whom my family and I fellowship. Nor is it meant to suggest that we recently went through some terrible split. No, for the time being anyway, we are all still together. They know the love of God in Christ and we have been the recipients of their love and God’s love through them in manifold ways. They are relatively mature in their faith and understanding of the Word (but then who am I to judge this?). So why then do I describe my construct of the house church as a heap of rubble around me? Simply put, the construct doesn’t work for me anymore.
Enter the Defenders of the house church Construct, those who would say that, “Sure, there are pitfalls, things to watch out for, that ‘Simple Church isn’t Simple’. But it’s still theologically correct.” Some might even say, “Just because you meet in a house doesn’t make it a house church.” To the latter, granted. But perhaps it’s also possible to say—and truth-fully to boot—that “Just because you’re a house church doesn’t make you ‘The Church’”—at least not in any meaningful sense of the Word. That last Word is meant to be capitalized, and that last phrase is lifted from a comment by a contributor to these forums named Jeramie, from Gulfport, Mississippi, who too seems to be seeking the real church, his own particular issue apparently mostly focused on a questioning of why the house church/simple church movements give short shrift to the Word when it comes to the role of Pastors/Elders/Bishops (as well as giving short shrift to the Word when it comes to truly living a life free of personal ownership of earthly treasures.) To be sure, these two questions are among those I have as I stand among the ruins, but they are not the only ones. I have to ask Jeramie, as I ask myself, what are you really looking for? If you or I are looking for a construct that works, I don’t believe we are going to find it in either the institutional church or simple church/house church, not at least until we deal with the elephant in the chapel.
So, what do I mean by this elephant? Put simply, it is the thing we don’t seem to want to confront but has been right before our eyes for 2,000 years of Church history: the effect of the false prophets and the spirit of antichrist as foretold by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, Jude and no doubt others of the apostles (Jude 17). Note I emphasize the effect, not the false prophets themselves. Confronting false prophets is one thing. Dealing with the effects is something altogether different. Concerning unequivocal speech, look right there in those verses I started out with. See how often the word will is used. There’s no maybe about it. But here we stand, 2,000 years hence, pretending that denominations are a good thing (oh no, not us house-churchers), pretending that we don’t need leadership, pretending that we can go back to doing church the way it was done in New Testament times, pretending that by leaving the institutional church and doing New Testament-style churches in our homes we are somehow not contributing to the continued atomizing of the One Body (at least as visibly expressed here on the earth.) How exactly is the house church immune from the “We are of Paul, we are of the Pope, we are of Calvin” phenomenon? Can we not just as easily say, ”We are of Viola/Cole/whoever”?
To be sure, the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail, but who are we kidding if we think that 2,000 years of savage wolves can have had no effect upon the Church (including the house churches) as she exists in the world today? To be sure, there is a Bride being made ready. But if we think that the Bride is going to be seen and enjoyed simply by re-establishing New Testament patterns (whatever those really are) while all around us “the love of many [has grown] cold,” then methinks we’ve got our eye off the true prize.
Let me give just one example of the effects of the savage wolves. Our fellowship over the years has had to deal with sin among some of its people. Grievous sin in some instances. Nothing unusual here. And certainly it has done damage to the life of the Body. Through it I (personally—the lesson is not necessarily a shared one) have learned that unless the sin is confronted with humility and love, but in the severe way the Word demands, we all suffer more than we ought, the sinner is never truly held to account and brought to repentance (by God, not us!), and the light of the Glory of God shown through the love we have for one another becomes a dimly burning wick. Of course what I am pointing to is “Church Discipline”. But that's just the theologian's term. That is, I'm not just talking about following a procedure because that's what the Bible says to do. I'm talking about moving in the power of the Spirit, a power promised to us who live in Him, and He in us. And I'm talking about this in a Corporate way, the only way that Jesus and his disciples taught us was the true nature of the Church. One Body. Universal.
But herein lies a conundrum. I can only speak of this movement and power in a theoretical way, having never witnessed the Body moving in this way. And how could it, really? Really.
Chew on that question a bit while I answer an objection some of you may have. You may say that you have seen church discipline in action, and seen a sinner turn from his ways as a result. But is there necessarily a causal link? Be careful how you answer! Could it not simply be that the kindness of God led the sinner to repentance (because that's what God does) without regard to the procedure employed? Bear in mind that what you witnessed was one isolated church putting a sinner out, but have you ever witnessed the Church putting out a sinner? If you are Catholic or Orthodox (which one? Greek or Russian?!) you might say yes, you have, since you believe yours is the One True Church. But let's say for the sake of argument that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are just two of the multitudinous examples of division the Church has suffered ever since Paul took up the problem with the Corinthians. If so, then it is impossible—due to the state of the visible Church today and the effects of the wolves—to put out a sinner, to do as Paul did, delivering such a one over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, yet so his spirit might be saved, or to refuse to feed the foolish busybody—to have nothing to do with such a one (ref: Corinthians and Thessalonians).
You know why this is an impossibility: the fool, the sinner, will simply continue to wreak havoc at the church down the street. Sometimes he'll build his own church right across the street! Or start a house church.
So, that is but one example of the teeth marks and shredded flesh. Obviously, following the whole question of Leadership would reveal another. If you look squarely at the elephant in the chapel, which again I am saying is the effect of the false prophets and the spirit of antichrist as previously foretold, you will realize that our constructs will not work, unless (Perhaps! But not likely!) our constructs are rebuilt with this understanding in mind. Or perhaps, as I suggested to myself earlier, it would be better to live without one.
Through all these admittedly negative musings I steadfastly maintain my belief that somehow, in some mysterious way, the Bride is being made ready, and when she is called to the wedding there will be Glory like we've never known. But I am going to have to let go of my idea that doing simple church gives us some kind of advantage in being able to see or walk in the Bride's glory either more or sooner.
I have had tastes of Joy in the Spirit and seen and experienced deep worship over the years, I have seen the Lord working among his people, I have known His presence in ways almost indescribable, and all of this in so many contexts beyond just the simple church. Among these contexts were a large evangelical Episcopalian church in Pittsburgh, a Southern Baptist church with a big-haired telegenic TV preacher, a fellowship group we led as part of a Bible Church, and even while viewing The Lion King on Broadway.
When I reflect on these points of closer contact with the Spirit, the elephant in the chapel, and the oftentimes misguided house churches I have witnessed or heard about (or even the times when I have contributed to the misguidedness!), I can't but help realize that while the concept of simple, house or organic church may be lovely in our image of it, the existential reality is something altogether different. What I do about it now, as I stand among the ruins of my own construct (my image, my idol—Little children, keep yourselves from idols), well, that is the question. Where the pneuma blows...
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Matthew G. Parker on -
@Sandy McCoy,
Please keep hanging in there. Sometimes that's all I can do too!!!!!!!!!!
@Marc M,
First, please except my apology for misspelling your name. Please forgive me. I am dyslexic, so I try really hard to catch all of that stuff.
Next, I guess what I'm trying to "sell" is only that the apostles are NOT the ones we should follow. We have record that Paul (who never walked with Jesus) ...openly scolded Peter (who did and was a disciple, even one of the "special three"). But what if Paul hadn't have stepped up? He had no real authority to do so you know.
Also, Paul said early on that he felt that he was among the chief of the apostle, then concluded that he was chief sinner shortly before he finished his race. I have no desire to follow a sinner...
But the fact is, you are correct and I am only speculating. However, I feel that it is from the preponderance of the evidence. Prof beyond a reasonable doubt? Nah. Ain't gonna happen. That would take a factual statement that simply isn't there (in The Text anyway).
A nicer speculation (for most church folks) would be that the church has had over 2000 years to make a mess of what the apostles chose to do in 6. The Interlinear can be used to support that somewhat, and this was my first conclusion.
However, I couldn't buy into that as time went on. Why? I simply couldn't get why twelve guys had a group of others... pick seven to do a job that the twelve didn't want to do. Too much work? That didn't wash, because it's simply bad math. So they were too busy studying? Studying what? The New testament wasn't even written yet. IN FACT, two men that were not even Jesus disciples (Luke and Paul) pen almost the entire New Testament! Where did all of that study go off to? No... it sounds like a simple slip back into The Law to me. Clergy laity split.
Again this conclusion comes from me spending over a year in The Interlinear. I just posted my conclusion. I defiantly expect takers and leavers. Mostly leavers! :)
Blessings,
Matthew
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Permalink Reply by Marc M on -
Matthew,
No worries about the misspelling. It happens all the time and the people who do it usually aren't dyslexic.
Chalk me up as a "leaver". As I said, a number of reasons come to mind why I can't buy it, and to quote myself: I "don't feel it profitable to get into an 'argument' of this sort. To do so would be to stray away from the very thing that I say Amen! to," the heart of it being what "Sista Sandy" picked up on in your post: "The wonderful thing is, what we are left with is Jesus, and Him alone!!!!" I'll block quote that paragraph of yours and then make a comment after:
The difference is simply "ministry" verses mentoring. The idea that the whole church is built on a mistake (that the early church made very early on) is "new." As far as I know, I myself "discovered" it. It really is a huge pill to swallow!!! It would mean we really need to follow Christ, and Christ alone. It would also mean that The New Testament is NOT!!! a new rule book that replaces all of The Old rules. It would also mean that The Acts (and almost all of The New Testament thereafter) then simply becomes a book of "how it was done" and not another rule book of "how we should all do it." The wonderful thing is, what we are left with is Jesus, and Him alone!!!!
Your starting point (a "new" discovery that the whole church was built on a mistake) is not a necessary premise or foundation for the conclusions you reach in the rest of this paragraph. Christ alone IS the premise. He IS the foundation, and it is because of this that we need to follow Him. And it is because of Him that the New Testament is NOT a rule book. It is He who has taken all the decrees and rules against us, having nailed them to a cross.
So again, No to your premise but AMEN!!! to your conclusion. His love is bigger than any of our premises, and He Himself is our conclusion.
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Permalink Reply by Matthew G. Parker on
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Marc,
OH! I guess we just don't see the same thing within the church then. My error.
The truth is, I have been exposed to a lot of different churches. Baptist, Assembly of God, "Spirit filled" Baptist who changed over to Nondenominational, Nondenominational, Interdenominational, Church of Christ, Catholic, Four Square, Third Wave, an Amillennialist church, home church, simple church, Red Letter christians, Messianic, the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and the Seventh day Adventist... and that's just what I can recall this late at night!
Almost everything I saw (and see) was/is simply based off of rules and regulations made from the early church's "example" (or interpretation thereof). NOTE: The Mormons, JW, and SDA are excluded here (for obvious reasons I hope).
You know the rules I'm talking about? The whole go to church X many times a week. Pay tithe. Act like this, don't do this, do do that. We believe this, we don't believe that. The Bible says this, it doesn't say that. Church to me is a you-can't-get-to-Jesus-because-of-all-of-the-crowd problem.
Well, anyway, I call these folks "pushers" because they like to push you to believe what they believe. I don't like that, so you being a leaver is just fine with me! 8^)
Now there is only one leaver left for me... and that's leaver alone!
Blessings,
Matthew
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Permalink Reply by Marc M on
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Just about ready to hit the hay when your reply came in, Matthew.
Leaver alone. That's good! :-) Actually, I think we do see the same thing within the church—you're describing my elephant—and while I have not had quite the breadth of exposure to the various denominations as you have, I've certainly had my share. I just don't see the same source of it, i.e., a mistake made in Acts 6. But nope, I feel no need to make you see it my way.
His blessings back to you!
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Permalink Reply by Matthew G. Parker on
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Marc,
Actually, I'm quite interested in what you see! What DO you see!?! God forbid that I ever [again] think I hold The Truth in my small little brain!!! Been there, done that, got several t-shirts...
Besides, I love different perspectives! I also value sight (or insight if I may) as one of the most important gifts we have been given ...and I just kinda like to learn too.
I'll shut up now, and listen!
Blessings,
Matthew
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Permalink Reply by Marc M on
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Hello, again, Matthew,
In your asking me what I see, are you referring specifically to your view that Acts 6 is recording the point of departure in which the Church went down the wrong track because the apostles set a bad example? Or something else. If something else, I'll just leave it with saying, see all my previous posts! If you're asking about the former, I'm going to have to beg off and not get into it for reasons previously stated. I really don't think it profitable to get into that kind of discussion because it doesn't really move us to the "Now what?," that is, how do you or I move closer to Christ?
My initial and follow-up posts were primarily what I suggested they were: a catharsis (or perhaps the ravings of a madman?!) to help me sort through the ruins of my construct. I had and have no desire to prove the thoughts I expressed, to argue anyone into believing them. Yes, the tone can perhaps make it seem like this, but I am learning that the second I move into trying to prove my position is the same moment in which my eyes stray from Christ. I likely was guilty of this (or on the verge of it) in my specific response to Claude Richards (my apologies to him for this). I just want to keep it to saying what I see. And now, with Job, I am placing my hand over my mouth.
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Permalink Reply by Matthew G. Parker on
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Marc,
Nah. Wasn't talking about the 6 thing at all. Remember the leaver thing? 8^) The truth is, I'm just trying to have a conversation. I guess you are quoting Scripture that voices your opinion? If so, nuf said.
Blessings,
Matthew
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Permalink Reply by Ryan Spear on -
I like this:
1 Cor 1
[20] Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
[21] For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
[22] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
[23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.I think the wisdom thing is a bit of a problem with all us none Jews. Christ alone and Christ crusified is too simple. Everything past Christ that every church has added on is what divides us all and makes for all the hundreds of denominations or let me purposely misspell 'demonizations' in that it rips apart the church even better than a demon itself could ever do.
"Got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything." is what they say. How about just stand for Christ and that's it. All the other stuff, truth or not, take the 'whatever' attitude with. It's all 'filler' that gives pastors enough material so they can have a full time paid job impressing all these so called truths on thier congregation, yes the very thing that divides us all. 'Filler' is what the I.C. is made of. We don't want this 'filler' stuff to be who we are. We want to put on Christ and not a set of traditions and religous actions. I want "happy, smiling, joyfull, and good attitude" to be who I am because I have God in me and nothing to worry about even in dealing with the normal life problems that arise. So I wish and strive for. It's no fun being angry and miserable with a sucky attitude.
This is all I have for now.
Ryan
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Permalink Reply by Matthew G. Parker on
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Hello Ryan,
I think the wisdom thing (intellect thing if I may) is a big one for me. The more I talk about The Bible the harder it is for me to focus on Christ (old habits and all).
What you say all sounds good. It really does... but when I tried house church I was underwhelmed. I wanted it to work, I really did. I figured with a little effort I'd be as good at it as I was at IC (I didn't leave the IC mad or disillusioned). Anyway, I am sad to report that what I saw was simply more of the same. You know, the funny thing is that there are even denominations now. We are a "house church" we are a "simple church" we are an "organic church" we are an "emerging church" we are... On and on.
Well... the good news is that we have [physically] moved far away (sixteen hours drive) from the house church that we went to. To be honest, they seemed to place more importance on silly things like midwives, breast feeding, natural this and that, and home schooling... than they did welcoming those who were different than themselves. (I am a stay-at-home-dad, and my wife is a very intelligent .NET web developer.) Needless to say, we didn't fit in too well. We were even told that we were out of "The Will of God" because our roles are "reversed." My wife was not amused!
To add insult to [their] injury, I knew The Bible better than most of the guys, had the best behaved children, and kept better house (I'm just a touch obsessive compulsive) than the women.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just inquisitive. Did I come across a fluke? I just didn't personally see (nor did my wife) any difference EXCEPT; 1.) The guy with the big [nice] house is the "pastor." 2.) He had no formal Biblical teaching, and 3.) couldn't counsel a wet chicken on how to dry itself. The difference pretty much ended there. The whole show up, sing, listen to a talk, sing, and then go home to eat the aforementioned chicken... was all the same!
How is this any better? Same prison, just different glass and (less qualified) guards...
Blessings,
Matthew
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Permalink Reply by Ryan Spear on
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Hi Matthew
I haven't seen the inside of a church in more than a year now. But, there is a but. As much as I haven't the desire to go back still, I take the time to think to the extreme end on things.
"What if"... What if everyone just up and desided not to go to church any more like me. What would be the end result if pastors were a thing of the past and no more gospel preaching or church institutions. The thought actually scares me. As much as I don't like the church 'system', it needs to exist. Maybe church, the weekly thing, isn't for everyone. Maybe some of us just out-grow it being so established in the Lord, our faith could never die apart from it. If the system could be changed and there is a better way to have or do church, I'm sure someone would have thought of it by now. I can't think of anything better. When I try to think of something and take it to an end, I can see it ending up another imperfect system that just won't work for everyone... even myself.
The thing about not having all the answers is always being in a place to just have to trust God. I'm not in the best position. I'm far from family having moved to another state for a job and without a church community. It's just me and my wife alone. That's another scary thought.
Ryan
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Permalink Reply by Matthew G. Parker on
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Ryan,
Please allow me to speculate.
What if just one person up and decided not to go to church any more? What if that one person decided to mentor/disciple just one other person for three years?
NOTE: Jesus mentored 12, but I personally think that He is an overachiever! 8^)
Anyway... Now, say that one person taught their one disciple to go and do the same thing... In thirty years that person would have had direct responsibility for over 160 million people being mentored in Christ. (The Catholic church {the largest IC church} has only 69 million members in the US.)
Now, what if pastors were a thing of the past? What if there were no more Gospel preaching or church institutions? I don't know the exact math, but in 2005 (the numbers I could find) there was over $93 Billion given to religious organizations by individuals in the US.
Now, think about the what if, if all of that money were simply given to those in need in the church, like in Acts 2... instead of going to pay for salaries, church buildings, etc? See where I'm going with this?
The truth is, I have worked within one IC or another most of my life (I was 14 when I started working with little kids). I escaped about three years ago. (I am now 45.) Only lately have I really thought about what I have accomplished for Christ.
In EVERY incidence where I have had a lasting influence in a life, I have been in their home ...or they have been in mine... or BOTH!
For example... One man I know wrote a college paper about me being "the most influential person in his life." You know what he told me? It was simply because I took the time to take him out for pizza (as a small boy) after church, talk with him, and value him as a person!
Jesus mentored for a reason... 8^)
Blessings,
Matthew
P.S. Note to the reader: I know that it's about quality, not quantity. I have neither, because I mentored them in the church, and many are now guards in the very prison I myself have escaped from. 8,^(
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Permalink Reply by Crystal Morningstar on
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Peace be with you.
One can take the man out of the church, but it may take a bit more to get the church out of the man. Just because we leave organized religion, does not mean we have left behind it's core beliefs that maybe alienated us from GOD once we reached a certain point in our developement of a relationship with Him. It would then be a simple change of clothing we have chosen, rather than growth in our rebirth. If the Spirit testifies to us that we are in a funhouse, surrounded by strange mirrors that distort our reflection, we very well may be! We may be surrounded by those who have left the church buildings and organizational structures, but have not left that church's spiritual condition behind at all. Same people, same beliefs, just different costumes in a different setting.
You wrote:
"I can't but help realize that while the concept of simple, house or organic church may be lovely in our image of it, the existential reality is something altogether different. What I do about it now, as I stand among the ruins of my own construct (my image, my idol—Little children, keep yourselves from idols), well, that is the question. Where the pneuma blows..."
GOD has blessed you with a powerful insight there. Indeed, you are blessed to be so taught by GOD.
You began with warnings. Another warning for us was to not receive anyone who does not have the testimony of Yeshua Christ. Yeshua Christ constantly testified of his oneness with GOD and prayed those given to him would experience this oneness. Having experienced this oneness myself, I can testify about all that Yeshua Christ testified. And yet, I am not GOD.
Yeshua Christ always pointed to his Father, prayed to his Father and taught us to pray to his Father. Yeshua Christ not once taught anyone to pray to him.
The one thing I've noticed about all the mainstream organized churches is a worship of a triune god called Jesus. Just because people have left the pagan temples, doesn't mean they've left the pagan gods behind. They're just worshipping them under the trees and in high places, where ever they see fit. Much of the new simple/organic/house church movement feels to me like the same thing. People have home-churched for centuries, the concept is not new. What is new is this "new agey" expression of it I see in much of the movement, an imitation of the True Church created to mislead the chosen ones fleeing Babylon the Great only to be ensnared by her latest costume. If this movement serves GOD's purpose in aiding His Chosen to flee, then all Praise and Glory to Him, but it does not neccessarily mean our journey out of Babylon is complete.
In His Love,
Crystal
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