"The Jerome Conspiracy"

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David Evans on April 13, 2009 at 10:10pm

Dena
Your words remind me of Paul when he said that he was resolved to know only Christ and Him crucified. When have stripped ourselves to our only non negotiable foundation is knowing the Son of God who has reconciled us to God through his death and resurrection, when we have considered all our other knowledge dung as compared to our literal and alive relationship with Jesus then we have what we need.
It seems to me that you will take an alive vibrant relationship with our Lord over a theology degree any day. I think you and Paul have some similar thoughts.
I do not have to worry what you believe about demons, or hell or baptism or womens ministries.... you know the author of all knowledge and in His good timing He will tell and teach you what you need. I do hope to encourage you, as you encourage me, to continue to follow him until he has filled you up with all good things, and to encourage you to love others as he has loved you. I appreciate you sharing the things you have experienced and the humble way that you share what you have learned so far. If something you share does not fit me I do not worry about changing you or me. My master will make sure whether I stand or fall (and just like you he will make sure that I stand). The "rest" of the Lord is a good place. entering into His sabbath rest and ceasing from my works.

Got a cheesy but useful illustration today. We all like cake but drinking oil, or eating raw eggs or snorting two cups of flour would not be much fun. Taken singular or in the abstract many of the things we learn or go through are not that pleasant or make much sense, but when put together by the Lord all of those ingredients make something very pleasant.
All that just to say that even my wrong turns in doctrine have been part of making my relationship with the Lord stronger.

When Jesus told the disciples to eat his flesh and drink his blood I am sure they were more than a little confused but its not about the confusion. The answer was not that they understood the doctrine but that they had no where else to go because Jesus gave them life.

Thank you for your singualr devotion to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and the encouragment I recieve by your example of counting everything else as loss for the sake of the what is far more valuable, knowing the Messiah Jesus, my Lord. It is because of him that you have experienced the loss of all those things. Indeed, You consider them rubbish in order to gain the Messiah

Dena Brehm said:

There is no way to put into this incredibly-limited medium which is the written word, what I have learned, experienced and come to believe, due to how I've been following God, as He leads, over the past 5+ years (when I began to be come aware of how He was leading me).

Here's my summary, as best I can offer it, even knowing that it will be misunderstood and used against me. So be it. :)

- I believe in one God, manifested most obviously in the Trinity (I see evidence and demonstration of the Triune nature of truth all over the universe/creation).

- I believe in Jesus, the Son of God, who was the Christ, the anointed One, the long-foretold Messiah, who was ever-so from before time began. I believe He is The Way, The Truth and The Life. It was through Him that the world was reconciled to God.

- I believe that God inspired the writers of the Bible, and that it is His message to us. I love, read, study and implement the Bible into my life. I do not, however, see it as inerrant, infallible, or any other words that humankind have put *upon* the Bible. I trust God to speak to me, His Beloved, in any way He chooses, including using the Bible to do so.

- I do not believe that Jesus set up Christianity. I do not believe it was His intention to develop another religion, but that He draws all mankind to Himself, not to live the "Christian life" (something entirely of our making), but to live the Abundant Life, which has nothing to do with any religion.

- I follow Jesus, who is alive and leading, in a relationship that has nothing to do with any declarations of man (though some may contain some truth). I have an ongoing, first-hand experience with Him, not a second-hand vicarious experience based on the lives of others.

- I experience Jesus, by His Spirit, leading me (& everyone, as we allow, as we are open) into all truth. He speaks to me internally, where spirit and Spirit intersect, and shows me whatever truth He has for me, using all resources available to Him, for all truth is His truth -- He is the only Source of Truth.

That's what I'm believing and experiencing today ... subject to His continual tweaking.

Shalom, Dena

Permalink Reply by Aida on April 13, 2009 at 10:21pm

Dena, I don't check this site as often as I used to but I had a little time and decided to read a bit on this thread. As you know, I've read and really enjoyed The Jerome Conspiracy and I appreciate you letting me know about it.

I believe you've done a wonderful job explaining how God has led you to search and accept some beliefs that are different from traditional christianity's. As you know, you and I are in agreement on many of the things you've stated here. You share with such clarity that it's obvious that you sought and studied much before coming to your present position. Thanks for being willing to ask the hard questions and not give up until you get an answer.

I guess you and I have come to the same position that we're no longer willing to accept it just because someone told us it's true. I'm also finding that the Holy Spirit is able to lead me into all truth and, if I miss it, he's also able to bring me back to truth.

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on April 14, 2009 at 12:10am

David, first you made me smile, then you made me guffaw (I can feeeeeeel those 2 cups of snorted flour, LOL!), and then you made my heart sing...!

You honor me, my new friend. Thank you for this God-sent encouragement.

Yes, I TRUST Him, oh, wonder of wonders, I have come to *trust* Him...!

It's all been worth it, every part, every dark season, every challenge from within and without ... it's ALL good!

(thank you)

Shalom, Dena

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on April 14, 2009 at 12:15am

and Aida, my older friend (who knows what I mean by that!)... thank YOU for your years of encouragement to me...! To have been on this wild and wonderful adventure with you, to have been able to connect with you in various places, and to taste of your heart, means the world to me...!

And you have seen me do some morphin'..! ;)

(oh, that would make a fabulous dance -- everybody do the MORPH!)

I love you, Aida!

Shalom, Dena

(P.S. The two of you were an answer to my prayer, "OK, God, I'd love to hear from You now...!")

Permalink Reply by Aida on April 14, 2009 at 6:13am

David, I just read your comments. It was late yesterday and I was skimming through. Also, as she said, Dena and I are old friends so I mainly focused on what she was saying although I did read a lot of the other comments however somehow I missed yours.

I hope you get to know Dena. She's a joy and a special lady.

Anyway, I went back this morning and read what you wrote and all I can say is WOW!! Thank you for sharing with such wisdom and humility. You have also encouraged me greatly.

Aida

David Evans said:

Dena
Your words remind me of Paul when he said that he was resolved to know only Christ and Him crucified. When have stripped ourselves to our only non negotiable foundation is knowing the Son of God who has reconciled us to God through his death and resurrection, when we have considered all our other knowledge dung as compared to our literal and alive relationship with Jesus then we have what we need.
It seems to me that you will take an alive vibrant relationship with our Lord over a theology degree any day. I think you and Paul have some similar thoughts.
I do not have to worry what you believe about demons, or hell or baptism or womens ministries.... you know the author of all knowledge and in His good timing He will tell and teach you what you need. I do hope to encourage you, as you encourage me, to continue to follow him until he has filled you up with all good things, and to encourage you to love others as he has loved you. I appreciate you sharing the things you have experienced and the humble way that you share what you have learned so far. If something you share does not fit me I do not worry about changing you or me. My master will make sure whether I stand or fall (and just like you he will make sure that I stand). The "rest" of the Lord is a good place. entering into His sabbath rest and ceasing from my works.

Got a cheesy but useful illustration today. We all like cake but drinking oil, or eating raw eggs or snorting two cups of flour would not be much fun. Taken singular or in the abstract many of the things we learn or go through are not that pleasant or make much sense, but when put together by the Lord all of those ingredients make something very pleasant.
All that just to say that even my wrong turns in doctrine have been part of making my relationship with the Lord stronger.

When Jesus told the disciples to eat his flesh and drink his blood I am sure they were more than a little confused but its not about the confusion. The answer was not that they understood the doctrine but that they had no where else to go because Jesus gave them life.

Thank you for your singualr devotion to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and the encouragment I recieve by your example of counting everything else as loss for the sake of the what is far more valuable, knowing the Messiah Jesus, my Lord. It is because of him that you have experienced the loss of all those things. Indeed, You consider them rubbish in order to gain the Messiah

Dena Brehm said:

There is no way to put into this incredibly-limited medium which is the written word, what I have learned, experienced and come to believe, due to how I've been following God, as He leads, over the past 5+ years (when I began to be come aware of how He was leading me).

Here's my summary, as best I can offer it, even knowing that it will be misunderstood and used against me. So be it. :)

- I believe in one God, manifested most obviously in the Trinity (I see evidence and demonstration of the Triune nature of truth all over the universe/creation).

- I believe in Jesus, the Son of God, who was the Christ, the anointed One, the long-foretold Messiah, who was ever-so from before time began. I believe He is The Way, The Truth and The Life. It was through Him that the world was reconciled to God.

- I believe that God inspired the writers of the Bible, and that it is His message to us. I love, read, study and implement the Bible into my life. I do not, however, see it as inerrant, infallible, or any other words that humankind have put *upon* the Bible. I trust God to speak to me, His Beloved, in any way He chooses, including using the Bible to do so.

- I do not believe that Jesus set up Christianity. I do not believe it was His intention to develop another religion, but that He draws all mankind to Himself, not to live the "Christian life" (something entirely of our making), but to live the Abundant Life, which has nothing to do with any religion.

- I follow Jesus, who is alive and leading, in a relationship that has nothing to do with any declarations of man (though some may contain some truth). I have an ongoing, first-hand experience with Him, not a second-hand vicarious experience based on the lives of others.

- I experience Jesus, by His Spirit, leading me (& everyone, as we allow, as we are open) into all truth. He speaks to me internally, where spirit and Spirit intersect, and shows me whatever truth He has for me, using all resources available to Him, for all truth is His truth -- He is the only Source of Truth.

That's what I'm believing and experiencing today ... subject to His continual tweaking.

Shalom, Dena

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on April 14, 2009 at 12:22pm

Aida -

Yes, David is one of those rare souls with whom I felt an immediate connection ... as if the surface-fluff became very thin, and my spirit was able to recognize his (of course, there is only One Spirit, which is the Source of our unity). Some speak of this as "namaste" ... an ancient world that means (at least to me): the Divine (Christ) in me recognizes the Divine (Christ) in you... a mutual-honoring. (I see this very thing spoken of by Jesus, in His prayer recorded in John 17.)

It's a beautiful concept that, unfortunately, is misunderstood and discounted by some (I was formerly among them).

I've come to believe that this is true of everyone (that they have Christ within them, because of what Jesus has done), only sometimes the connection is tougher to discern, as we have varying degrees of tough surface-fluff that appears to be "in the way". IOW that which we *think we are* can distract ourselves and others from who *we really are*.


David is one who shows the fruit of knowing who he really is, and so what he does reflects who he is ... a wholly refreshing and rejuvenating person to encounter...! In being his authentic self, and living out of that awareness, he inspires others to do the same ... like a beautiful virus (may it spread)!

(I don't mean to speak about you as if you're not here, David, but I wanted to offer you the gift of hearing yourself being discussed in a way that might bless you...)

Shalom, Dena

Permalink Reply by Tammie on April 14, 2009 at 4:55pm

Hi Aida,

No friendly greetings, words of encouragement or kudos on my posts for me?

I feel so...so...slighted.



Aida said:

Dena, I don't check this site as often as I used to but I had a little time and decided to read a bit on this thread. As you know, I've read and really enjoyed The Jerome Conspiracy and I appreciate you letting me know about it.

I believe you've done a wonderful job explaining how God has led you to search and accept some beliefs that are different from traditional christianity's. As you know, you and I are in agreement on many of the things you've stated here. You share with such clarity that it's obvious that you sought and studied much before coming to your present position. Thanks for being willing to ask the hard questions and not give up until you get an answer.

I guess you and I have come to the same position that we're no longer willing to accept it just because someone told us it's true. I'm also finding that the Holy Spirit is able to lead me into all truth and, if I miss it, he's also able to bring me back to truth.

Permalink Reply by Tammie on April 14, 2009 at 4:58pm

Dena,

When you posted the summary of what you currently believe you stated your basic belief of who God is, which is the Hebrew God we read about in the Bible. What you believe about Jesus is from the Bible. You said you believe the Bible is inspired. And you said Jesus speaks to you internally, where spirit and Spirit intersect, and shows you whatever truth He has for you. Did I understand that right?

I'm not yet understanding where your belief on no demons comes from, you haven't said your belief comes from the Bible, you haven't actually said it was something Jesus has shown you, internally, Spirit to spirit... you said it's not a doctrine, it's just something you've come to suspect, are coming to believe and you've said it was something you've come to over many years, through many experiences.

You've said that Jesus met folks where they were spiritually and culturally and I'm not sure if you've actually said this or I'm just assuming this but I think you've said that Jesus taught about demons because that was the understanding of the people at the time. But that doesn't line up with the wording of Matthew 4 for one ... still trying to understand how the wording in that chapter works into your belief of no demons, the Hebrew God and the inspiration of the Bible.

Why would you believe Socrates, or probably more accurately Plato's idea of demons as a source of origen if you don't also take his idea of god?

That's the thing, the teachings on demons that you provided do not explain the teaching in the Bible or the Hebrew cultural view. Your examples may explain the mixture of ideas in whatever IC's traditional demonology you're talking about, I don't know cuz I'm not familiar with it at all but they have nothing to do with the cultural understanding of Jesus' hearers or the Bible's writers, nor can they be used to explain what the references in Bible mean.

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on April 14, 2009 at 5:46pm

I believe that demons are other-than what the passed-down-traditions of man have taught.

I see that the understanding has been added-to over time, much like a wide-scale game of "Operator".

I know nothing of what Socrates or Plato teach of demons or of God. I read widely, from a number of reSources, and go with what resonates as truth within me -- what I sense the Spirit and my spirit are in agreement upon. My views are including things which may be considered "metaphysical" or mystical lately ...

What does it matter to you, to anyone, why I believe what I believe? My beliefs are morphing. By the time you figure out what it is I believe and why, I've likely moved on. ;)

There's nothing I can prove, even if I were inclined to do so ...

and I'm not. :)

Shalom, Dena

Permalink Reply by Aida on April 14, 2009 at 5:48pm

HI Tammie. I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to slight or ignore you. I’ve been away from sc for a while and have just popped in for a short visit since this book interests me.

Actually I’ve skimmed through a lot of the discussion. You’re all getting too deep for me but I’ve enjoyed the exchange of thoughts and ideas and you have been most gracious in your discussion. That really is a breath of fresh air since I know this subject for some reason causes a lot of stress and often some hostility. I feel both you and Dena have been able to discuss this as sisters in the Lord who are eager to learn and that is commendable.


Tammie said:

Hi Aida,

No friendly greetings, words of encouragement or kudos on my posts for me?

I feel so...so...slighted.



Aida said:

Dena, I don't check this site as often as I used to but I had a little time and decided to read a bit on this thread. As you know, I've read and really enjoyed The Jerome Conspiracy and I appreciate you letting me know about it.

I believe you've done a wonderful job explaining how God has led you to search and accept some beliefs that are different from traditional christianity's. As you know, you and I are in agreement on many of the things you've stated here. You share with such clarity that it's obvious that you sought and studied much before coming to your present position. Thanks for being willing to ask the hard questions and not give up until you get an answer.

I guess you and I have come to the same position that we're no longer willing to accept it just because someone told us it's true. I'm also finding that the Holy Spirit is able to lead me into all truth and, if I miss it, he's also able to bring me back to truth.

Permalink Reply by Patrick on April 14, 2009 at 7:33pm

OK, I will be a stinker here....Dena, You need to be saved , fixed, reformed, schooled and controlled better. How dare you listen to the God in your head! Dont you know that man knows better and he wrote it down as such in a book called the bible? You must be confused and wrong and further more a danger with all the XXXXX's behind it. I am going to make a garlic necklace to protect myself and the life blood from being drained from ...( I cant afford silver bullets)...anyways, I am pretty sure that God does not need anyone of us to tell you what He needs to say or have you learn. Churchys just focus too much on what is right and wrong and who is to blame. I choose to just love you...just like Jesus does, just the way you are and He will do the rest. Anyone else here down with that or do they feel the need to edu-muh-cate some more?/
PS. God'sGoats are more fun!!

Permalink Reply by Aida on April 14, 2009 at 8:19pm

I'm rather surprised this conversation is still going on. I can't imagine what's left to be said. I think Dena's expressed her beliefs well so a lot of this seems reptitious to me but maybe it's not. The book is in my opinion an interesting book and answers a lot of questions regarding Universal Reconciliation. If anyone is interested, I recommend the book and believe it would be helpful for anyone who is seeking to understand. It's an easy read and wouldn't take long to finish.

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