"The Jerome Conspiracy"

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Permalink Reply by Aida on April 16, 2009 at 11:57am

Dena, this is beautiful and I'm overwhelmed by your words of grace. Like Patrick has said, I'm not there yet but the wonder of it all is that I don't feel any condemnation. I know God loves me and that's becoming more than enough for me.

The funny thing is after listening to a wonderful teaching by Darin Hufford on suffering, I've once again begun to pray the prayer that started me on this amazing journey. About 12 years ago, I began to pray Philippians 3:7-14 as a personal prayer. Like you, I had no idea where it would lead and I have since said that if I had known how God was going to answer that prayer, I never would have prayed it since it was shortly after that that I entered into the darkest, most difficult time of my life. Although I’d been a believer over 20 years, it was so difficult that I really thought I wasn’t going to make it. Yet that's what Father used to bring me to the place I am today so I now say that knowing what I would go through, if I had to do it again, I would.

Darin's wonderful teaching on suffering and your beautiful sharing of your journey have inspired me to continue to pray that dangerous prayer because like Paul, "I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings.”

Aida

Dena Brehm said:

I was urged to come get on the computer, and read this thread, prior to heading out for my routine morning walk ... it's not like me to go against my routine, but the urge was strong. I also had something burning in me to share here.

It's with delight that I find your amazing words of encouragement, both David and Aida. Bless you, and thank you for honoring the urges you felt in your own hearts.

I'm also delighted, oddly enough, to have read the words of both Carolyn and Bill ... I had sensed for some time now that they were denying their own true feelings, about me, about what and how I share, and now they were feeling free to be more honest with me. I find that refreshing, even if I experience initial discomfort in the onslaught. Jesus meets us where we are, He always has ... He never meets us where we think we're *supposed* to be. It's truly good when the veneer (even a "kind" veneer) falls away, and people get authentic. So I see it all as good.

Now, I'd like to share that which is burning in me, so that I can get it out, and get on with my walk, LOL!

I set out to find God at an early age ... and I did find Him, for when we come to Him as a little child, our defenses are down, we are open and vulnerable, and we find Him. And then, religion (specifically Christianity) got in the way ... it redefined the God I had experienced as a child, and told me the parameters for how, when, and where, I could now connect with Him ... only, He became oh-so-distant. And in that despair, I lost my first love, and I went down a dark and shadowy path, seemingly away from Him (only I've learned that He never leaves me nor forsakes me ... that I can go nowhere, not even Sheol, the place of the dead-living, where He is not ...and that He never abandoned me, nor did He stop speaking to me ... I just forgot a lot, and denied a lot, and thus experienced a void of my own making).

In the midst of that religious-Christian experience, which crumbled all around me, I cried out to Him, "I want to know You, I want Your truth, at all cost -- show me what's of man, and what's of You -- I won't settle for less." An amazing prayer, and I had no clue what I was asking for. I urge both high caution and extreme encouragement in praying that prayer...! For you will never be the same ... nothing will ever be the same...!

What I've discovered, in this journey since that moment (which includes everything prior to that moment, for there is no illusion of time for God, and nothing is wasted), is that I had to be willing to really know God -- not simply to know what I *thought* I knew about Him. My beliefs about Him made it impossible to know Him as He really is ... all the misaligned belief in the world couldn't work. It only kept me continuing to know what I thought I knew, instead of what really is.

I had to be willing to suspend what I imagined I already knew about God, in order to know God as I'd never imagined...

It's been a long and painful process, and I've vascilated between daring leaps and cowering depths. But I've come to embrace a God who loves and embraces me, without condition. I've welcomed into my life a God who welcoms me into the kingdom, no questions asked ... and I've stopped punishing myself for acknowledging a God who will not punish me, and I've come to talk with a God who never stopped talking to me.

Yes, these are radical notions. And yes, many call this heresy. The irony is that I've had to abandon religion, even Christianity, in order to truly know God. I've had to abandon many of Christianity's teachings, for they kept me from God. And yet, I've never, ever abandoned Christ, for how could I? Every breath I breathe is the breath of Christ (it is the same for each of you).

I've come to believe that in order to truly know God, we have to be "out of our minds".

Here's what I hear God saying to me, Spirit-to-spirit: "Come to Me, through the path of your heart, not through a journey of your mind. You won't find Me through your mind. You won't find me if you try to think your way to Me... for your mind holds all your previous notions about God. Yet the truth about Me will not be found in the previous ideas you hold so dear, but in your present moment experience with Me, here and now. I am the I am, not the I Was, nor the I Will Be."

(the divine dichotomy is that in this process, my mind is renewed, in the the process of merging with the Mind of Christ, and thus I can better use my mind, love Him with my mind.)

Now, a funny thing happened on the way to knowing God (& this journey ever-continues ... there is no "arriving" ... and I am not a teacher ... I am merely one who shares outloud, as I go). En route toward more of knowing God, and knowing God more, I found Oneness. This shouldn't surprise me, for Jesus prayed for this very thing, and how often does God not answer God's prayer...? But I had not experienced this Oneness (with Him, with all others) until recently. It's quite startling, really. And I got here through what appeared to be adversity (not the first time God used "satan" as a tool...!).

The irony of this Oneness is that I no longer have a need for anyone to believe anything I say. Who am I? In fact, I'd rather folks tune in to their own hearts, the intersection of Spirit-and-spirit, and find their own truths (for all truth is God's Truth). I'd rather folks do their own search, their own asking, their own knocking ... to discover their own wisdom and to have their own experiential encounter with the Living God, here and now.

If anything I ever share leads someone to do that, causes them to question how they've been believing/thinking/reacting, and inspires them into an exploration of deeper truth, then sharing myself here (there, and everywhere, LOL!), and even opening myself up to criticism, is SO very well worth it...!

It's not that I, in and of myself, am so special - we're ALL special. We're all One, in ways we cannot fathom. And we're One with God, in ways that sound blasphemous to our religious ears.

I no longer fear God, and that is changing my life. I no longer fear any of you, and that has freed me to love you, as you are... no matter what you say or do to me, no matter what you think of me.

I won't divide from any of you either -- though that's impossible. Separation would only be a painful delusion.

I'm responding to an "internal guidance system," operated by the Spirit, which draws me not only more into Him, but more towards each one of you.

So I can say I love you, and mean it, even in the midst of what appears to be conflict. The Oneness is more real than the illusion of the conflict. We just get confused, we just ignore the Voice of the One within. And we are all forgiven, for we truly don't know what we are doing. Until we do. When we know better, when we know who He really is, and therefore who we really are, we do better.

If you read this, thank you. If it doesn't resonate for you, freely dismiss it. If it draws you to Him, to each other, go with it.

I'm off to enjoy my walk in this once-in-a-lifetime gift of a day He's given me...!

Shalom, Dena

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on April 16, 2009 at 12:54pm

You both deeply honor me. And, you both know me, better than most. You've seen me in anguish, over the words of others ... you've seen me question what I believe, who is God, who am I, how can I live through the indictments of others -- especially when it has come all at once, and even from those close to me.

You saw how it happend here, just a few months ago, when many felt the need to ask the site-owners to force me to be quiet, or else to leave ... and to openly declare me as heretical. I will be honest: that was wrenching. It was reminiscent of when we were kicked out of church just for having discovered God's lavish design of intimacy within marriage (&, of course, daring to write openly about it). It was reminiscent of having to leave a leadership role in a healing ministry we adored, and felt called to, because of our "heretical" views.

It was wrenching, because it forced me to inquire into what I *really* believed, and why I believed it. I had to choose between going with how God sees me, and how humans see me. I wanted both, but had to choose. And being forced to see it as it was, the choice became clearly, obviously crystalized: choose God, choose how He's leading me, no matter how He's leading me, no matter what the consequence.

I was encouraged, by some, and by God, to let the pain transform me. To let that pain be pregnant with hope. To let that hope give birth to trust. And it brought me to the awareness, the recognition, that I can hear God. That I do not need others, am in no need of anyone to teach me, in order to experience God, first-hand (a realization which, paradoxically, draws me more to others!). Even that word, "recognition," says to me re-cognition, or re-knowing ... returning to my First Love -- the One who knew me before He knit my body together in the womb...!

This is beyond-precious, priceless. Well-worth the agony of getting here.

It took what it took, and it always does. The very thing we each experience, that causes us pain, that we resist -- that is the thing we need...! God comes to us disguised as our life. We can accept, embrace, even come to love, whatever happens - what is.

And ... while it's possible to get there the "easy" way, I've never yet experienced that, nor have I observed that in others. It seems that what we fear, we draw to ourselves ... and then, in facing that thing we fear, it evaporates in the Light of Truth. Mercy triumps over justice. Love casts out all fear. God (& God-in-us) absorbs all darkness into His Light.

I've fought all my life, for I used to see life as a battle. But there's no more fighting (and indeed I see the war-mentality as a delusion of our confused group-think)... I see God everywhere, in everyone, in everything, showing up where He's not *supposed* to be, and as I look, everything is transformed.

Lately, as I write, as I talk, I discover things coming out of me that I didn't know I knew ... I keep laughing, keep grinning like a besotted fool, keep saying "oh!" and putting my hand to my mouth in astonishment ... "wow, I believe THAT?!?"

Yeah ... I'm the most delightfully-befuddled woman I know, wondering, "how did this happen to me..?"

I love You, God. Thank You, for all of this.

(yeah, I've got my hand on my mouth...)

Shalom, Dena

Permalink Reply by Patrick on April 17, 2009 at 1:21pm

I did not get the same message from the book that you describe Claudia. I saw the redemtion as a done deal not the ongoing process and sanctification through Him as the ongoing process. Sanctification is actually more awareness not less and that the good news is that (He did )not that (He is still saving.) The point is not to save but to point them to the finished work as a done deal. Changes witnessing and relationship people altogether. The journey is all part of the joy He experiences with us not some forward future thing that we toil over until death. Way to many people cannot see and experience that the kingdom of heaven is at hand and they continue down the path of striving the rest of their lives.
Imagine telling the young man dying of AIDS in the book that Christ condemns Him no longer and that He can live! You are saved, therefore you can live like you are saved. If you are condemned then you live like you are condemned. The church messed up the message...
And as to the bible itself, you are right we are blessed to have it, and more blessed when we take mans tradition and interpetational errors out of it. Groups of men voted them into place and order as they saw fit...

Question everything...and trust God to hold to keep you while doing it.

Permalink Reply by Patrick on April 17, 2009 at 6:37pm

I know what you mean Claudia,
When I first went within the discovery questioning process I often tried to see if there was room for both/and instead of either/or. I found that God just would not let me explain away all those verses about salvation and the overwhelming "All" and "whole world" verses. There was never and exception, only an explanation by concept rather than actual precepts. And all those were based on putting multiple factors together based in tradition rather than just reading the verses plainly.
Then it made me wonder why couldn't they just mean what they say? I found it easier to make those fit the character of God within the simplicity of the verses. Somewhere in church history we added the select elect from those extra concepts. When I read that Christ makes alive what Adam made cursed, I cant help but think that Christ's work is ultimately more powerful than Adam's.

Permalink Reply by Tammie on April 18, 2009 at 6:46am

Thanks for the hugs, advice and blessings girlfriend!

There is always plenty written about the IC pastor, with their lofty minister act. But I'm reminded of the sweet persona of the pastors wives...

...ever heard Brad Paisley's song "I'm so much cooler online"?


Dena Brehm said:

(((Tammie)))


I've said all I can say, at this point, based on my own journey so far. I've shared openly, from my heart.

I made no claims that I have, much less could possibly share, "everything that needs to be said." ;)

For that, my friend (& I mean that sincerely), you would have to have your very own conversation(s) with God.

I strongly encourage that -- may you, may we all, hear Him.

His richest blessings, His clearest leadings, in your journey with Him..!

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on April 18, 2009 at 12:40pm

I've not heard the song, but I'm aware of the penchant for pretending to be that which we're not, online.

You'd have to ask those who know me in person, whether I'm who I appear to be here ... whether I'm consitent, and live with integrity no matter where I am ...

(but I'm finding that what others think of me really isn't my business...! ;) )

(which is my freedom)

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on April 18, 2009 at 1:20pm

Good thoughts, Claudia!

Just my thoughts added to yours, fwiw:

- We glorify God through our living ... making our choices, as co-creative beings (made in His image), experiencing the consequences of those choices, and learning as we go. At some point (& I no longer believe that all learning must happen prior to our transition through biological "death"), we come to our senses ... see Him for who He really is, and see ourselves as we are. At some point we awaken to the reality that His will, and our (truest, deepest) will, are One.

- Why the drama of Jesus coming down to be crucified? Because we weren't getting it. We needed a live-demonstration we could perceive with our senses. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world (& also, we were chosen from the foundation of the world ... Jesus even says, "you didn't choose Me, I chose you."). It was always already *done*. I see that we were never separated from God, though we believed we were (I know - radical thought). Throughout the OT we (humans) got God wrong. God kept wanting intimacy, and we kept fearing HIm, projecting our too-human traits upon Him, and Jesus came to show us the Father. Thinking Him to be too good to be ture, we killed Him in history, but His Story was that it was always done, only we didn't know it. Spiritual reality is the more real (absolute) reality. Perceived, tangible, time-line reality is less real, more of an illusion designed to allow us this experience and, like the Prodigal, come to our senses and return home (we come from God, we return to God).

- It's not that God was less-than prior to the Atonement (prior to Jesus coming to show us Father) ... i'ts that our perception was less clear 'til then. And we're each variously awake and aware to what is. As we believe in our hearts, we are. We actually create our own reality, both individually and collectively. We do this unconsciously, or consciously. When we think we already have all truth, we're not open to receiving more truth from God ... (and there's always more ... the finite cannot fully comprehend the Infinite).

- "make a mess in the pool" -- LOL! :D

- I like your thoughts about the Kingdom. It is here, now. Just because we transform with what we call "death" and thus experience the Kingdom in a more fully-realized way, doesn't mean it can't be had now...! ;)

- I no longer see things as black and white as I once did ... I see far less either/or, and far more both/and. I see many Divine Dichotomies at work in the Kingdom. Both "already done" (in the realm of the absolute, where God is), and yet being "worked out" (in the realm of the relative, where we are currently experiencing God). Until we each SEE what's been done, and thus experience what's been done, we cannot live as if it's been done. We need to awaken from our spiritual slumber.

Thanks for joining the throng, Claudia ... sounds like your brain works like my brain with the what-if's, and the resulting implications that do INDEED make the head swim (even as the heart sings)!

Perhaps this is the very process of mind renewal..?

Shalom, Dena

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on April 18, 2009 at 6:29pm

Here's an article that may speak to that: http://eapi.admu.edu.ph/eapr00/jojo.htm

Claudia said:

Dena, Just want to clarify, in your first paragraph that you mean Our truest, deepest will--led to oneness with God's will by the Holy Spirit?? And this may have been asked before by someone and I missed it, but what dp you mean specifically by co-creative beings??

I do believe there are some clear-cut black & white lines, and they should remain so. But like you, I also see a lot of things with a both/and perspective. Where I struggle most is in trying to discern between where we fuzzied the lines as part of human error and disobedience, and where the gray areas are legitimate. It's an interesting and wild ride, for sure...

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on April 18, 2009 at 6:40pm

NOTICE: I received an email from Tony Dale today, and a decision has been made to disallow any further discussion of anything of a controversial nature (this would include the salvation of all, and fulfillment eschatology). This thread, and the others of this nature, will be closed down within the next couple of weeks. I do not yet know whether that means that they will be removed, or only closed to further posting. If there is anything that anyone would want to copy, now would be the time.

Here's Tony's message, which I pass along:

Dena,

Your ability to keep up with so many threads on the simplechurch.com site absolutely astounds me! I can barely get to the site once a week, let alone make any meaningful contribution. You manage to follow so much of it. I admire your persistence.

But, the UR/Jerome Conspiracy stuff is proving to be an on-going problem. Simplechurch.com exists to serve the simple churches, and is really not a place for the pushing of any doctrines that don’t fall within the confines of the broad spectrum of evangelical thought. I know that a growing number of evangelicals do subscribe to some tenets of universal reconciliation, but that does not make UR a part of classic evangelicalism.

We do not want the site to be a place of confusion, especially for the large number of Christians who come to the site looking for help in the early stages of house church life, and find themselves confronted with theological arguments that are not within the core of the site’s purpose.

Having watched things for the past few months, I think that I now need to specifically ask you, and maybe through you, those others who share your views, not to use the simple church site as a place for these discussions. Are you welcome to stay on the site to discuss things associated with simple church life? Of course. But that should not be a portal for then taking those subjects and using them to move sideways into areas that are related to UR. For example, in the recent posting that I made about simple church finances, focusing on the wonderful things coming out of the network of churches in Killeen, you have posted a very affirming reply, but even in that open the door to ideas of us as co-creators with God that many would interpret as “new age.” You know me, and my previous emails to you, well enough to know that I want this site to be open to all who love the Lord (clearly as you do), and who are active in house church life. But that does not make it an “open” place for the dissemination of ideas that are not mainstream. I am not saying everything mainstream is right. What I am saying is that this site is positioned mainstream, and that is precisely where we plan to keep it!

Can I specifically ask that you from now on keep all UR stuff off the site, and that your posts stay well within the bounds of classic, evangelical/charismatic theology. If you want to take any of this email and post it within those threads that are discussing anything associated with UR, that is also fine with me. Within the next couple of weeks I will be closing down those threads, once you and others have had a chance to disseminate this “standard” that we are setting for the site.

Thanks for your help and understanding,

Every blessing,

Tony

Permalink Reply by Patrick on April 18, 2009 at 9:21pm

So who really wins with this one Satan, God or Man?
I guess the Holy Spirit needs our help and intervention in these matters?

Permalink Reply by Carolyn on April 19, 2009 at 6:54am

The Last Adam. This is for those caught in the discussion of Adam's work.

A favorite theme of those who espouse universal salvation, also known as universal reconciliation, is the statement that Adam’s work in bringing all men into sin could not be as powerful as the work of Jesus in bringing all men into reconciliation with God. Therefore, all men will be reconciled thru the work of Jesus. The statement sounds right, because of course we think that Jesus is more powerful than Adam…

However, any statement this serious, any statement which will change the nature of the message of the gospel we have heard, deserves a close scrutiny of the logic on which it is based.

Adam was the first man. He was created in perfect harmony with God. The seed of DNA for all future generations was in him. This logic follows what we know of Adam.

Adam rebelled against God. He was not deceived, but sinned knowing that he violated God’s word to him. Death that was imparted to him and it had an effect all the way to the core of his flesh, his nature, and was recorded in his DNA.

All the seed proceeding from Adam and his son’s would now carry the mark of that sin and rebellion in its DNA. This is not a work of Adam, it is the nature of the flesh based on the ability God gave to procreate.

Jesus was not born of the seed of Adam. From the time of Genesis, the point is made that Jesus would come from the seed of the woman. That is why he had to be born of a virgin, without the seed of Adam being passed with its original mark of sin. Eve was not in direct rebellion against the word of God, but was deceived in the transgression as Paul wrote to Timothy.

Jesus was the son of Adam in the flesh, thru Mary his mother. But he was the son of God by the Spirit of God whom Mary received when she believed and received the word of the angel and said, “Be it unto me according to your word”. Jesus, as the word of God, is the seed which gives birth to spiritual children.

Do you remember how Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born “from above” (original text) in order to see the kingdom of God? Do you remember how believers are described as being born again? We are born as children of Adam, and as such are born with sin in our DNA. When we believe in Jesus and receive the word concerning him, our spirit man is born from above and made alive in him.

Adam provided seed for physical children. Jesus provided seed for spiritual children.

This concept is quite simple. This is why we are called “new creatures”. This is why one cannot see the kingdom of God until one is born again. This is why we live “in him”. This is why and how we are saved.

This is a new and living way by which we are brought into reconciliation with God. So now Paul could say, “There is neither Jew nor Greek. There is neither male nor female.” As spiritual children of God, we have been reconciled, and God is really our Father.

It is not a problem to say that ALL in Christ Jesus are reconciled. It is just that all are not in Christ Jesus. All are not born of his spirit. All have not believed and received this word and been willing to accept the work he has done. All are not his spiritual children, and this is evidenced because some live in darkness not having the light of life in Christ. All are not born of the spirit of God.

The universal and forever part of this reconciliation work done by Jesus is that it is a change of nature. We are different beings. This follows the systematic logic of the story portrayed in scripture. The work of Jesus is a spiritual work that has a physical effect. Those who are born of him are like him, and are being changed into his image. They can do his works, and even greater, because he has sent the Holy Spirit to empower this life.

There are further discussions we could have. There is the fact that our DNA was put to death on the cross with Jesus, so that our nature could be changed. And the fact that we can choose to throw away the life we have received in Jesus. But, the point is made that this reconciled life is not a comparison of the work of Adam to the work of Jesus. They are different in the nature of the result. But this is the good news. Now, Tell everyone, so that they may believe and live. Amen.

Permalink Reply by Bill Wood on April 20, 2009 at 7:04pm

dear saints,

I don't know where to start. I do not believe what I posted was a Fundamental Thumping of traditions as Patrick put it.

I just shared what I believe the Lord showed me. It's not based on traditions. I myself have been caught up in a gnostic spirit, and that's what I discern in much of the UR, preterist stuff. Until the Lord reveals that I was wrong in my discernment, then I'm sticking to my guns. I know this ain't no war, at least not against flesh and blood.

I am not accusing any one person here of nothing. I did not call Dena, *Jezebel*. I have myself been guilty of bringing offerings offered to idols and enticing folks to partake. I for one know myself, have had the Lord reveal much. I am much aware of my idolatry.

Patrick says:The tone and attitude above cares nothing for people at all. It is a lie to say otherwise Mr Wood.
You know nothing of Dena or her heart for truth and Christ.

Me: You don't know MY heart Patrick. I could say the same about you and Dena. I see condescension at times. Sometimes it appears that you are bullying people Patrick. What kinda heart is that?

I have never felt so troubled before on a list as here. I want to leave.....at times I think it's futile....but yet I see the Lord in the midst and how I'm having to completely depend on Him. I

I don't believe that UR is truth. I think it's very divisive. We could argue scriptures, but UR folks have already discounted them. I ain't by any stretch of the imagination fundamental. But I do believe in a foundation. Which reminds me of some words spoken by Paul, " the foundation of God is firm and bears this seal, 'The Lord knows Who are HIS', and let those that name the name of Christ depart from all iniquity.'"

The Lord knows who are His..........so that means there are some that ain't. How do you argue that one? You know I ain't going to argue scripture with anyone.....you already have it figured out.

And one more thing......I ain't no ET person neither. I'm pro-LIFE.


May Jesus confront us all on our Damascus road.......

In His Grip of Love,

Bill

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