The Money Matters....

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Permalink Reply by John Brown on May 20, 2011 at 6:47pm

Mindy,

As the spirit leads is the answer. As one who personally lives by "Kingdom Economics" (see Wolfgang Simson, Starfish seminar) I can tell you it is a spirit leading thing both for the giver(s) and recipient(s). The standard for the modern church, which was born on Pentecost, after the resurrection and ascension and is the pattern you see in Acts and the Epistles.

While I could write a complete teaching essay on that matter, suffice to summarize the matter by saying the first century church pooled resources to care for elderly widows who had no family, orphans who also had no family and in support of the Godly leaders if needed. Only twice in scripture were funds sent to Jerusalem from outlying provinces and that was for relief due to famine, famines that are recorded in Roman history too. The pattern was always from persons to persons to cover material things they could not or should not.

 

If you want a rule for the modern church, use the first pattern that emerged after Pentecost.
ESV: Acts Chapter 2

 [42] And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. [43] And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. [44] And all who believed were together and had all things in common. [45] And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. [46] And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, [47] praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

The pattern is 100% as there was need for resources. In our society, this is unthinkable but there it is. I didn't write it, God by holy spirit inspiration wrote it. The practical side is by spirit leading you to do as is needed in your life to bless you and those brothers around you.

Bless -- JB

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Permalink Reply by Mindy Wood on May 24, 2011 at 12:56pm

Thanks John! I'm sorry it took so long to post a response. This does make a lot of sense and I've been reading the passage from Acts 2 and others that told about how they lived, managed money, etc. We're really excited about it because we've found a poor woman to provide food for. It also seems they took care of each other too but I worry about that causing strife. How do you handle that? Well of course we're to be led by the Holy Spirit...I just hope that we're all on the same page when it comes to hearing from God rather than someone being ill motivated to take advantage. Thank you SO much for posting this reply.

John Brown said:

Mindy,

As the spirit leads is the answer. As one who personally lives by "Kingdom Economics" (see Wolfgang Simson, Starfish seminar) I can tell you it is a spirit leading thing both for the giver(s) and recipient(s). The standard for the modern church, which was born on Pentecost, after the resurrection and ascension and is the pattern you see in Acts and the Epistles.

While I could write a complete teaching essay on that matter, suffice to summarize the matter by saying the first century church pooled resources to care for elderly widows who had no family, orphans who also had no family and in support of the Godly leaders if needed. Only twice in scripture were funds sent to Jerusalem from outlying provinces and that was for relief due to famine, famines that are recorded in Roman history too. The pattern was always from persons to persons to cover material things they could not or should not.

 

If you want a rule for the modern church, use the first pattern that emerged after Pentecost.
ESV: Acts Chapter 2

 [42] And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. [43] And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. [44] And all who believed were together and had all things in common. [45] And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. [46] And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, [47] praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

The pattern is 100% as there was need for resources. In our society, this is unthinkable but there it is. I didn't write it, God by holy spirit inspiration wrote it. The practical side is by spirit leading you to do as is needed in your life to bless you and those brothers around you.

Bless -- JB

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Permalink Reply by Rusty W. on June 2, 2011 at 8:46am

"give as the spirit leads" should also lead you to actually give. I've met people who say "I give as the Spirit leads" but then never give. Sometimes this is actually a cop out for Christians to neglect actually doing anything in life. The mosaic law is no longer obligated, however, there is still a law of the Spirit of Life. (Rom. 8:2)

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Permalink Reply by Mindy Wood on June 2, 2011 at 9:14am

Right. Everything about home church seems to come back to being led by the Spirit of God with of course some structural boundaries. Elders...the Spirit of God leads us as to who those are but we have some guidelines like these should be self controlled, not given to much wine, mature, etc. It's interesting. Thanks for the reply.

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Permalink Reply by Ryan Spear on June 4, 2011 at 6:27pm

I was reading some other web sites post about the selling of possesions and distributing them to those in need so there were no needy among them. That's the kind of love that grew the church. If I was the poor and needy and a Christian came and helped me out, I'd most likely listen to what they'd have to say. I'd be thinking, "These Christians are such loving and giving people. I want to be like them and return the favor some day."

 

I don't see the churches out doing this. Maybe because our government took over by way of welfare and social programs. We all give generously through our taxes too.

 

As far as selling thier possessions, I doubt they sold 100% of their possessions. That would be senceless because they would become the poor and needy. They most likely sold thier extras or gave away thier extras to those in need. But what can be said is they supplied 100% of the needs of the needy.  My take on the Acts pattern of giving is give as you can to the need that arises, when a need arises.

 

Now real life:

My brother and wife got over $2500 behind in gas and electric bills and months behind on thier mortgage (by the time I heard about it). You judge things as they come. Even though I could have caught them up with everything, they were not acting responsible enough or making enough between the two to keep going even if I had paid everything up for them. My helping them would not have helped. They would have still lost the house and I would have been out thousands of dollars myself for nothing. They were constantly arguing and separating, in an unstable marriage... ended up divorcing here recently. Including my other inlaws who are always short on cash, I would be the poor and needy myself if I helped them all. I would literally have no retirement going. Handing out money just makes some people more dependent and find it best to let some suffer with thier foolish irresponsible behavior that got them into the position they are in. If push came to shuv, I wouldn't let family starve. It's not like I haven't OK'd giving money to inlaws to help out in the past with little or no gratitude and not one ouce of effort on thier part to pay me back when they say they will.

 

Its not just me they mooch off but any other family member they could get money from and never pay back either. It comes down to the responsible thing is to not help in many cases. I do have other inlaws who do pay back and have no problem helping them. As I say, you have to judge things as they come. Sometimes you have to let a drowning person go unconcous before jumping in to save them else you drown with them in thier panic. If a person hasn't hit bottom, you could crash and burn with them.

 

Real life isn't so cut and dry or black and white. As of now everyone has a place to live or stay, food and cloths. A lot of lessons learned including for me over the past 15 or so years.

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Permalink Reply by Jim London on June 4, 2011 at 7:20pm

Ryan, I sense that you are exercising rather sound discernment as you think through principles related to supporting others. It catches my attention that God built rather clear directives into His prescriptions for His people very soon after delivering them from the oppression of Egypt and setting them up for their own social identity. In particular, He insisted that they look after widows, orphans, and aliens (the homeless) -- people who were dispossessed and destitute by some calamity, and were also vulnerable to abuse such as enslavement. There was also a principle of hospitality, to which they adhered, for the traveller who needed protection/ shelter. In the New Testament, Jesus points to the actions of the Samaritan as indicative of the spirit "love your neighbour" and also clarifies who reflects His love as those who fed the hungry, gave the cup of water to the thirsty, and visited those in prison (likely as His persecuted followers). And giving hospitality to those who cannot repay it because they don't have resources or even a place to invite us to.

The writers of the letters emphasized practical compassion for widow/ orphans, those caught in famine, etc.

And Jesus shook complacency and callousness toward the needy with His story of the wealthy farmer who built bigger barns, and through the account of Lazarus and the rich man.

God has said a lot about the topic, hasn't He?

The needs are great. It's not a minor topic to Him, it seems!

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Permalink Reply by Mindy Wood on June 8, 2011 at 10:22pm

I think that's what has worried me Ryan. Everything isn't so cut and dry. We want strict rules because they make us feel safe but then they trip us up as soon as we have to break them. I am convicted Jim of my irritation when a poor neighbor has needed a ride, gas money, or just wants to hang out. It's not because she's poor mind you but just quite strange and it never fails she shows up at the most inopportune times! Of the times I've given her money her need was legitimate, her predicament pitiable, and she's always been thankful for it. I've never asked her to pay it back because I know what it's like to be poor. You don't have it in the first place, you sure don't have it to pay back usually! Anyway sorry to drag on but you've both given me a lot to think about. Sorry for the slow reply. The work at home mom never gets to work in summer when her kids are home much less stay on top of her social media :/

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Permalink Reply by Doug Moore on November 16, 2011 at 7:55am

in the old covenant they gave a tithe (means 10%) to support the priests (Levites).
in the new covenant we give as we prosper to support the church.
you might use 10% as a good rule of thumb but we are not commanded to tithe. we are commanded to give as we prosper and not grudenly. we do not give for "show".
example of the Apostles is the christians gave on the first day of the week.

also note that the old covenant commandments and items were a shadow of the new covenant.
so the old covenant tithe and new covenant we give from the heart (still giving money but its with gladness and not a mandatory tithe)

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