What's Wrong with 1 John 1:9? Part 1
This could be a very controversial discussion on the subject of forgiveness and the believer. It is still in a rough form. I need to add some more to it to make it a more thorough discussion. Regardless, I found the truths contained here to be very liberating and it helped me to learn how to walk with a clear conscious, as 1 Timothy encourages. I hope you enjoy the discussion.
Tags: 1, 1:9, Forgiveness, John
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I John 1 9.docx, 15 KB
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David on -
I really enjoyed your 'rough form' on this topic. I saved it to disk & have read it through & made a few typo corrections and plan on sharing with our group. I do look forward for more of your musings on this.
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Permalink Reply by Marshall Diakon on -
from the document:
"It is my opinion that forgiveness is always associated with blood..."
Record of God's forgiveness of sin is throughout the Scriptures. Hebrews 9:22 is speaking of (in context with) the Law of Moses.
[Exodus 34:6-7; I Kings 8; II Chronicles 6; 7:14; Psalm 32; 65; 86; 130; Isaiah 6:7; Jeremiah 36:3...]
Not substitution... The finished work of Christ brought about a propitiation, which then made possible forgiveness/remission of our sins, but not before a particular shortfall actually happens -- that would be more of the "substitution" take, and in class with "indulgences". (takes us backward a few centuries)
[Romans 3:25; Hebrews 12:17; I John 2:2; I John 4:10]
Matthew, please take up the tools and look more deeply, and may you do so in Spirit, truth, and agenda-free. If the first steps we take are askew, difficult course changes may be required later.
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Permalink Reply by Matthew Lanty on -
Marshall,
As I mentioned in my introduction, the article is not finished yet. There are a few other things that I want to add in the next part that may answer some of your questions. I have not mentioned substitution in my article, though both the concepts of propitiation (the sacrifice that satisfies) and substitution mentioned in other parts of scripture. The Lord's goal is to make worshippers "perfect" not just cover them so that He cannot see their sin anymore.
My agenda is to share the truth in such a way that stimulates thought and helps to see people free. Some "sacred cows" need to be killed. This is one of them. Moo!
Marshall Diakon said:from the document:
"It is my opinion that forgiveness is always associated with blood..."
Record of God's forgiveness of sin is throughout the Scriptures. Hebrews 9:22 is speaking of (in context with) the Law of Moses.
[Exodus 34:6-7; I Kings 8; II Chronicles 6; 7:14; Psalm 32; 65; 86; 130; Isaiah 6:7; Jeremiah 36:3...]
Not substitution... The finished work of Christ brought about a propitiation, which then made possible forgiveness/remission of our sins, but not before a particular shortfall actually happens -- that would be more of the "substitution" take, and in class with "indulgences". (takes us backward a few centuries)
[Romans 3:25; Hebrews 12:17; I John 2:2; I John 4:10]
Matthew, please take up the tools and look more deeply, and may you do so in Spirit, truth, and agenda-free. If the first steps we take are askew, difficult course changes may be required later.
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Permalink Reply by Matthew Lanty on
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Steven,
Thanks for your support. I hope to stand up for the truth by the Lord's strength, of course. Hopefully I can finish the next part very soon.
Steven McDade said:I like what I read so far.
Even though I like Jars of Clay's version of "Nothing but the Blood", I too have thought that the "substitution" is the wrong take.
Jesus died a brutal death and it was not just about him being the slaughtered lamb.
I have found good insight in the "letters" but realize that they were not written for us in this day. It's up to our minds, heart and soul to be focused on the Father and learn from Jesus.
Keep going here with you doc. Be warned though, as I have been, you will have "stones" thrown at you! You may be run out of the church you are with. I've already been shunned by the church I'm with, but I feel freed. Part of the message that Father is telling me is to bring me out of their passive modes and start believing in God again.
Anyways. Good work. Keep standing up for the truth!
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Permalink Reply by Matthew Lanty on
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David,
I am excited and touched that you would want to share my reflections with your group. Thank you for believing in me. I hope the Lord will use it to help set people free and be able to enjoy their relationship with God in more experiencial way. This truth has been a real source of encouragement to me. I will work on the rest of the article as soon as possible.
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Permalink Reply by Matthew Lanty on
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Amen! Alexander.
Regarding confession, it is always good to agree with God and His word. If we don't we will have a lot of problems that will go unresolved. If God calls something sin, it is a good idea that I agree with God's opinion. When I disagree with Him, I will miss out on the best blessings that He wants me to experience and enjoy because of my unbelief. Confession is good. Covering up and blaming others for my sin is a very poor choice that not only hurts myself, but others as well.
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Permalink Reply by Annette Land on -
Matthew,
Loved your input.
As I read this "The typical application of the verse is held to mean that if the Christian is to experience forgiveness for sins since coming to Christ for their salvation, they must confess all their sins to the Lord and ask for His forgiveness, if they hope to have their relationship with God restored. "
What kept coming to mind while reading this.... was, that if there is repetition over the same issues of sin means that there is a lack of faith.
Jesus died once.
There is the battle of the mind... are people taking 'every' thought captive?
The enemy keeps records of our wrongs; the Lord chooses to remember no more!
These little truths can be added to the discipleship process.
Thanks for sharing your breakthrough.
Annette
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Permalink Reply by Matthew Lanty on
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Annette,
Thank you for the positive feedback. Your comments are right on. This particular problem (as with most problems) is caused by unbelief of the truth. It is our unbelief that robs us of peace, joy, and the abundant life that we are promised. As we rid ourselves of the lies that we have believed, we will experience peace, joy, and the abundant life to a greater degree. We will also be able to express the love of God more clearly to others.
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on -
Hi Matthew -
I'm just now stumbing upon this.
Unfortunately, I can't open your document ... would it be possible to share it another way? Perhaps you could send it to me in an email link? I'd really like to read it. brehmites @ aol . com (remove spaces first).
Thanks!
Shalom, Dena
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Permalink Reply by Connie on -
Does forgiveness have anything to do with repentance?
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=repent&...
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Permalink Reply by Matthew Lanty on
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Connie,
It does not appear that forgiveness is tied to repentance after a person has been born again. Look at 2 Cor. 19. You cannot receive forgiveness without believing in Jesus Christ for your salvation. Jesus paid the price for all of our sins without asking for our opinion about what He was doing. He reconciled us to Himself, not counting our sins against us. Reconciliation has to do with God no longer witholding the possibility of relationship with Him because of our sins. He has reconciled Himself with us, but have we reconciled ourselves to Him? Sin is no longer preventing us from having a relationship with Him. It is only the belief in our own minds that tells us that we are His enemies. That is what sin does. It makes us believe that God is really mean, bad, and doesn't like us at all. That He is the great cosmic scorekeeper that demands pentance for our sins and short-comings. Men are like that who want to make God in their own image.
Connie said:Does forgiveness have anything to do with repentance?
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=repent&...
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Permalink Reply by Connie on
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I do not think God is mean or bad. I think he wants his people to walk the path that leads to where he is. I think repentance comes naturally once you have faith and hope. Reconciliation with God is a process that includes daily repentance. Perhaps we understand repentance differently? It's not that hard to do, and we feel God's love and approval as we move through the steps of repentance. It's like a little child who chooses to do something nice for their parents, and then is so proud and pleased with how much happiness his parents feel.
Matthew Lanty said:Connie,
It does not appear that forgiveness is tied to repentance after a person has been born again. Look at 2 Cor. 19. You cannot receive forgiveness without believing in Jesus Christ for your salvation. Jesus paid the price for all of our sins without asking for our opinion about what He was doing. He reconciled us to Himself, not counting our sins against us. Reconciliation has to do with God no longer witholding the possibility of relationship with Him because of our sins. He has reconciled Himself with us, but have we reconciled ourselves to Him? Sin is no longer preventing us from having a relationship with Him. It is only the belief in our own minds that tells us that we are His enemies. That is what sin does. It makes us believe that God is really mean, bad, and doesn't like us at all. That He is the great cosmic scorekeeper that demands pentance for our sins and short-comings. Men are like that who want to make God in their own image.
Connie said:Does forgiveness have anything to do with repentance?
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=repent&...
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