What's Wrong with 1 John 1:9? Part 1

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Lanty on December 22, 2008 at 10:51pm

Connie,

It does not appear that forgiveness is tied to repentance after a person has been born again. Look at 2 Cor. 19. You cannot receive forgiveness without believing in Jesus Christ for your salvation. Jesus paid the price for all of our sins without asking for our opinion about what He was doing. He reconciled us to Himself, not counting our sins against us. Reconciliation has to do with God no longer witholding the possibility of relationship with Him because of our sins. He has reconciled Himself with us, but have we reconciled ourselves to Him? Sin is no longer preventing us from having a relationship with Him. It is only the belief in our own minds that tells us that we are His enemies. That is what sin does. It makes us believe that God is really mean, bad, and doesn't like us at all. That He is the great cosmic scorekeeper that demands pentance for our sins and short-comings. Men are like that who want to make God in their own image.

Connie said:

Does forgiveness have anything to do with repentance?
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=repent&...

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Permalink Reply by Connie on December 23, 2008 at 9:55am

I do not think God is mean or bad. I think he wants his people to walk the path that leads to where he is. I think repentance comes naturally once you have faith and hope. Reconciliation with God is a process that includes daily repentance. Perhaps we understand repentance differently? It's not that hard to do, and we feel God's love and approval as we move through the steps of repentance. It's like a little child who chooses to do something nice for their parents, and then is so proud and pleased with how much happiness his parents feel.

Matthew Lanty said:

Connie,
It does not appear that forgiveness is tied to repentance after a person has been born again. Look at 2 Cor. 19. You cannot receive forgiveness without believing in Jesus Christ for your salvation. Jesus paid the price for all of our sins without asking for our opinion about what He was doing. He reconciled us to Himself, not counting our sins against us. Reconciliation has to do with God no longer witholding the possibility of relationship with Him because of our sins. He has reconciled Himself with us, but have we reconciled ourselves to Him? Sin is no longer preventing us from having a relationship with Him. It is only the belief in our own minds that tells us that we are His enemies. That is what sin does. It makes us believe that God is really mean, bad, and doesn't like us at all. That He is the great cosmic scorekeeper that demands pentance for our sins and short-comings. Men are like that who want to make God in their own image.
Connie said:

Does forgiveness have anything to do with repentance?
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=repent&...

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Permalink Reply by David on December 23, 2008 at 10:59am

Connie,
You have said it quite nicely.
I would like to add....
When we do something that we know is wrong then the Spirit of God speaks to our spirit/conscience convicting us and showing us we are wrong. Repentance is saying and meaning, 'Father or Poppa, I'm sorry for what I did (or did not do).' He IS the loving Father whose forgiveness is always ready to flow over us. I truly feel His arms of love and forgiveness around me when I have said, I'm sorry. I also sense His voice saying, [just as one of my parents use to] 'Listen to Me. Please don't do that again. I do love you and I want what is best for you'.

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Permalink Reply by David on December 23, 2008 at 11:37am

Also,
Many parents use the 'time out' type of discipline today. As I was writing the post above, it came to me that there are times when Poppa has placed me in [time out]. Just as a child, no matter how much I cry and holler, I can't get His attention until the [time] has expired. Then He comes and wraps His arms around me and holds me. I say to Him, "I'm sorry, please forgive me." And I hear Poppa say, "I love and forgive you, please don't do that again. I do love you and I want what is best for you".
Just like a child, I am thrilled when Poppa does that.
Oh the joy that floods my soul and being to know that HE loves me enough to chasten and forgive.

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Permalink Reply by Connie on December 23, 2008 at 2:11pm

David, I totally understand what you are trying to express. I know the time out well. I should say my inner brat knows the time out. I try to use that time as a preparation time. It seems you can go along doing whatever you please and it seems like there are no immediate consequences. Perhaps we push the line just a little. Then suddenly God causes a shift. For me it was a slight stroke. Oh,, the memories. I just thought of another. I was using my (old) typewriter for something secretive that I knew wasn't a good idea, and it broke, just suddenly stopped working. I got the message and burned whatever it was I was working on. But God is faithful to not give up on me. He has never left me alone, even during the time out.

So, you refer to God the Father as Pappa......just as Jesus did when he said,
Mark 14: 36
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
Gal. 4: 6
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Abba
Recent scholarship has shown that, although the New Testament was written in Greek, the main language that Jesus and his disciples spoke was undoubtedly Aramaic, an ancient regional language. The Aramaic word Abba appears three times in the New Testament (Mark 14:36, Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:6) and each time it is immediately translated as Pater for readers unfamiliar with Aramaic. It seems that when Jesus spoke of God as Father in Aramaic, he used the term Abba. It is particularly remarkable, then, that Abba is an intimate word for father. It indicates some of the very first syllables a baby might pronounce in reference to his father — something like Daddy or Papa, but even more like Dada.

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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on December 23, 2008 at 3:50pm

I'm seeing that all are reconciled to God, by Jesus' actions -- I see that God answered God's prayer that day, and forgave (all) who knew not what we were doing.

I agree that we cannot enjoy a relationship with Him, unless and until we SEE what Jesus did, and receive that reconciliation/forgiveness.

I'm seeing that our being forgiven, being "in Christ" is a done deal ... but in order to experience it, appreciate it, live in it, we have to be in agreement with it (have our minds renewed).

IOW, my heart was made new by Jesus ... but if I believe a lie (believe that I'm still separated from God), then I'll live that way. I'll be reconciled to God, regardless, but my life here will be miserable.

Not sure if we're seeing it the same way, as I've not yet read your article (so many emails, so little time!), but I'm enoying what you're sharing here. You strike me as a man willing to see things afresh.

Shalom, Dena

Matthew Lanty said:

Connie,

It does not appear that forgiveness is tied to repentance after a person has been born again. Look at 2 Cor. 19. You cannot receive forgiveness without believing in Jesus Christ for your salvation. Jesus paid the price for all of our sins without asking for our opinion about what He was doing. He reconciled us to Himself, not counting our sins against us. Reconciliation has to do with God no longer witholding the possibility of relationship with Him because of our sins. He has reconciled Himself with us, but have we reconciled ourselves to Him? Sin is no longer preventing us from having a relationship with Him. It is only the belief in our own minds that tells us that we are His enemies. That is what sin does. It makes us believe that God is really mean, bad, and doesn't like us at all. That He is the great cosmic scorekeeper that demands pentance for our sins and short-comings. Men are like that who want to make God in their own image.

Connie said:

Does forgiveness have anything to do with repentance?
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=repent&...

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Lanty on December 23, 2008 at 7:52pm

Connie,

Repentance is essentially chosing to agree with God that you are wrong to engage in the sin of unbelief (all sin is unbelief in one form or another), turning your back on it, and choosing to walk in a different way where you are at least attempting to obey the Lord. It takes some time to get obedience perfected, that is why I say to make an attempt at obedience.

Reconciliation is a different matter. Reconciliation has to do with the cessation of hostile feelings of offense towards another. If I get mad at you because of an offense that I have decided to take, then it would be difficult for you to walk in harmony with me. The relationship could progress no farther, at this point. If you care about me, you would seek to find out what the source of offense is. After learning what the offense is, you would try to communicate with me so that you could resolve the issue that has offended me. Say for instance, I take the time to get things worked out with you. I listen to what you have to say. After hearing what you have to say, I choose to accept your apology for hurting me. Maybe I see where I have taken up an offense against you unjustly, then I can change my mind about occurred and seek to be restored in my relationship with you. Then we have been reconciled. This would indeed be a process.

God is not this way. According to 2 Cor 5:19, it says: "that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation." God had every reason to be mad at us over our sin, but He is no longer angry with us. God reconciled the world to Himself. God was angry at mankind because our multitude of sins. Now, He is not because of Jesus' payment for all of our sins. He is no longer imputing (counting) our sins against us. He is no longer keeping record of the multitude of sins that we have committed against Him. God is saying to us, I am not looking at your sins anymore. Yours or anyone else's sins. God wants a relationship with us. He is no longer offended with us. We can have a relationship with God if we want to. We don't have to, but the possibility of relationship is available to anyone who wants it. That is why He says in verse 20, "...we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God." God is pleading with us to receive the reconciliation that He is offering to us. Again, it is our choice. You can receive it if you want to, or you can keep on believing that you are God's enemy. That is reconciliation.

God is not a man where He has to sort through all of His feelings before He will choose to do the right thing in our behalf. It takes us quite a while for us before we choose what is best. Reconciliation is not a process for God. It is an accomplished fact that occurred on the cross when Jesus died.

I hope this clears up things for you. This is what I understand to be true.

God bless.



Connie said:

I do not think God is mean or bad. I think he wants his people to walk the path that leads to where he is. I think repentance comes naturally once you have faith and hope. Reconciliation with God is a process that includes daily repentance. Perhaps we understand repentance differently? It's not that hard to do, and we feel God's love and approval as we move through the steps of repentance. It's like a little child who chooses to do something nice for their parents, and then is so proud and pleased with how much happiness his parents feel.

Matthew Lanty said:

Connie,
It does not appear that forgiveness is tied to repentance after a person has been born again. Look at 2 Cor. 19. You cannot receive forgiveness without believing in Jesus Christ for your salvation. Jesus paid the price for all of our sins without asking for our opinion about what He was doing. He reconciled us to Himself, not counting our sins against us. Reconciliation has to do with God no longer witholding the possibility of relationship with Him because of our sins. He has reconciled Himself with us, but have we reconciled ourselves to Him? Sin is no longer preventing us from having a relationship with Him. It is only the belief in our own minds that tells us that we are His enemies. That is what sin does. It makes us believe that God is really mean, bad, and doesn't like us at all. That He is the great cosmic scorekeeper that demands pentance for our sins and short-comings. Men are like that who want to make God in their own image.
Connie said:

Does forgiveness have anything to do with repentance?
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=repent&...

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Permalink Reply by Connie on December 23, 2008 at 9:35pm

I forgot to mention that I wasn't able to open your attachment, and I also neglected to read 1John1:9 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_jn/1
As I understand this chapter, Jesus is teaching the difference between walking in the light, and the darkness. To move from darkness into light requires confession. Admitting we have done wrong is not easy. Most times we cannot see it. Would you feel comfortable in the presence of Jesus Christ? Let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly. Then shall your confidence wax strong in the presence of God. That's my motto.

I read a book called "The Miracle of Forgiveness", and I was literally in shock as I realized the author was speaking to me, about me. I needed to go to the Lord and ask for forgiveness, but first I needed to think back and acknowledge my sin. It took a while, but I felt so much peace through the forgiveness process. The peace did not come until I was able to put away my sin, but now I have the sweet assurance things are right between me and God. What did Christ say to the woman who was taken in adultery? "Neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more". That is the meaning (as I see it) of repentance/forgiveness.

Forgiveness might not come as soon as you've repented, but I believe you can't have one without the other. One other thing that was mentioned in the book, you need to forgive others if God is to forgive you. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/6/9#9

Here's a list of sins that I'll bet not many have thought about.

"Murder, adultery, theft, cursing, unholiness in masters, disobedience in servants, unfaithfulness, improvidence, hatred of God, disobedience to husbands, lack of natural affection, high-mindedness, flattery, lustfulness, infidelity, indiscretion, backbiting, whispering, lack of truth, striking, brawling, quarrelsomeness, unthankfulness, inhospitality, deceitfulness, irreverence, boasting, arrogance, pride, double-tongued talk, profanity, slander, corruptness, thievery, embezzlement, despoiling, covenant-breaking, incontinence, filthiness, ignobleness, filthy communications, impurity, foolishness, slothfulness, impatience, lack of understanding, unmercifulness, idolatry, blasphemy, denial of the Holy Ghost, Sabbath breaking, envy, jealousy, malice, maligning, vengefulness, implacability, bitterness, clamor, spite, defiling, reviling, evil speaking, provoking, greediness for filthy lucre, disobedience to parents, anger, hate, covetousness, bearing false witness, inventing evil things, fleshliness, heresy, presumptuousness, abomination, insatiable appetite, instability, ignorance, self-will, speaking evil of dignitaries, becoming a stumbling block; and in our modern language, masturbation, petting, fornication, adultery, homosexuality; and every sex perversion, every hidden and secret sin and all unholy and impure practices." (p. 25)
Now that's controversial. You were looking for controversy????

What would you eliminate from the list? Add to??

You asked the question "what's wrong with 1 John 1:9?". There is nothing wrong with it as long as you read the whole chapter with it, otherwise you might think confession is all that is necessary in order to be forgiven.

I would like to read your attachment if you could try again. thankx.
connie

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Lanty on December 23, 2008 at 9:39pm

Dena,

I would say we are on the same page. I am glad you are enjoying the discussion. It is a cool topic. It has helped me to be free of a lot of guilt and self-condemnation. It is great to be reconciled and approved of by God because of His great love for us.

Let me know what you think after you have read the article.

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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on December 24, 2008 at 10:42pm

I read it and very much enjoyed it -- I love getting a glimpse of your good heart!

I share your joy, your enthusiasm, and your delight in knowing that you're "living loved"...!

I wrote back to you, via email -- let me know what, if any of it, you'd like me to share here.

Shalom, Dena

P.S. Anyone else read it?

Matthew Lanty said:

Dena,

I would say we are on the same page. I am glad you are enjoying the discussion. It is a cool topic. It has helped me to be free of a lot of guilt and self-condemnation. It is great to be reconciled and approved of by God because of His great love for us.

Let me know what you think after you have read the article.

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