Why I hate church
I think I"ve finally figured it out! And I"m excited about it!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on -
What have you figured out, David? Care to share your thoughts?
Shalom, Dena
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Permalink Reply by David R on -
What struck me this morning is the idea that I am very much a kinesthetic learner. Listening and hearing, for extended periods of time, simply drive me nuts. I'm much more a hands on-doing kinda fella. It was really quite a time with God this morning as he opened my brain to memory after memory of things I've said or done that was contrary to the way church is currently done.
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Permalink Reply by David Evans on -
David
I agree with your sentiments. I also think the IC makes people feel inferior. It treats them like little birds that must sit still and hold their mouths open once a week to be fed the word of God from the daddy or mommy bird.
The constant routine reminder that they must be led and fed at least once a week keeps many feeling unequal and inadequate.
David Roe said:What struck me this morning is the idea that I am very much a kinesthetic learner. Listening and hearing, for extended periods of time, simply drive me nuts. I'm much more a hands on-doing kinda fella. It was really quite a time with God this morning as he opened my brain to memory after memory of things I've said or done that was contrary to the way church is currently done.
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Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on
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What I most dislike about "what calls itself church" is the teaching of separation from God ... and the separation from each other ... it trains us to think in terms of "us vs. them".
There are other things ... such as the teaching that we cannot trust our hearts (wherein Christ lives, via His Spirit) ... that we are inherently evil ... that we have to *do* something to remedy this problem.
It negates the Atonement ... which I notice occured, in God's reality, from the foundation of the world...
(which is also when we were chosen ... "You didn't choose Me, I chose you.")
Methinks that our minds are filled with all manner of misconceptions about God, about ourselves, about others ... but I see evidence that God is rectifying all of that ... we *can* have our minds renewed (& thus be transformed) as our lies are replaced with His Truth ... the Spirit IS leading us into all Truth.
God is that good...!
Shalom, Dena
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Permalink Reply by David R on
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I guess I don't see how Simple Church is much different than the IC in regards to kinesthetic learning? Large or small, it's still gonna bore me to tears.
I wonder if someone did a survey if the Catholic Church contains more kinesthetic folks than Protestant Churchs?
Is there such a thing as a Simple Church version of the Catholic Church?
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Permalink Reply by David Evans on
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I am also very kinesthetic. When in meetings I always stand up and walk around, create excuses to leave the area and come back. The group I am in is very tolerant and understanding. Many times I stand through most of the meeting.
Your experience would depend on the particular group you gather with. In our group the men start out by cooking and serving breakfast and then doing clean up. ( a very kineshetic activity) we then gather in a group and each one shares whatever they want. I tend to stand or walk back and forth to the kitchen getting more coffee for me and others until i feel settled or interested enough to sit down (also the little children while monitored to keep them from being too loud run in and out of the group.) At some point we usually sing a song or two, very seldom more. By then someone has a group activity they want us to do - discuss some topic, read a passage of scripture and discuss, or testimony time. We then pray for each others needs and problems for the week and for the nation and others we know of in our community and our meeting is over. While some of the very traditional institional organizations, Catholics, Episcopalians etc have a lot of activities, - standing, kneeling, responses etc I found them all more controlling and distracting.
But if they do something for you then by all means you should seek that out. In our area years ago there was one Orthodox Greek that did home school and services in his home. You might could find some information about a home group of Orthodox by searching the internet for resources for Greek Orthodox.
David Roe said:I guess I don't see how Simple Church is much different than the IC in regards to kinesthetic learning? Large or small, it's still gonna bore me to tears.
I wonder if someone did a survey if the Catholic Church contains more kinesthetic folks than Protestant Churchs?
Is there such a thing as a Simple Church version of the Catholic Church?
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Permalink Reply by JP Vilaire on -
I identify with your feelings of needing more "hands-on" learning while in a "church" setting (I notice simple church folks use quotation marks a lot:). Before we left the IC my wife and I were pastors in very traditional churches and were exploring the emerging church style of worship. We see now that this is really just trying to put a new face on the old IC and grow the churches with more young people. But what we did take from it was the use of prayer type stations and experiential worship to drive home the message of scripture. Some examples of what we do are found on our church blog, www.friendsvillehouse.blogspot.com We sometimes have our gathering in places that relate to the scriptures such as a walking trail in a park when we read about the meeting of Jesus on the road to Emmaus, we thought about (though it never actually materialized) taking a lakeside fishing trip while having a study on the appearance of Jesus to his disciples as they were in the fishing boat. The idea is to use your imagination to convey the meaning of a portion of scripture through a hands on activity or object lesson. Jesus used this all the time; observe the widow putting in the mites, look at the flower of the field and the birds of the air they don't work and yet God feeds them and clothes them, take this bread it is my body...take this cup..., etc.. We will have a lot more soon on our blog as we are basically just getting started. Hope this helps.
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Permalink Reply by David R on
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Thanks for the responses guys. It does help. There are days when I feel so "out there" that it's not possible to get there from here.
I especially liked the ideas about taking trips. That one I'm gonna have to study on a while. :)
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Permalink Reply by Steven McDade on -
If you really want to understand why MEN hate going to church, I suggest you read a book called "Why Men Hate Going To Church" by David Morrow. The author suggests that the IC become more "guy" friendly. I attempted to do what David suggested and have failed to make a change in the IC. That's why I left.
Even the SC movement has caused some passivity and has made some men want to sit around. Jesus was a man of action as well as words. I think that it is hard for most that were raised by churchianity chrisitianity to stand up and take action. But I digress.
I have a passion to help the male to understand that there is a Way that is very heroic, compassionate, and wonderful through Christ. But the men's ministry that is currently out there goes to far into the militaristic camp and not enough into the works area. It takes a surrender of the free will to that of Jesus to start changing the soul.
Not sure I'm making sense. If you wish to read something a bit more clear, go to my blog www.danceswithklingons.wordpress.com and find Part I of "Following Where Others Have Gone Before" in the December 2008 archives.
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Permalink Reply by David Evans on
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Steven
I like your digressions
As a man I have found that I am able many times to choose a path that looks like I am doing the right thing when in reality I am avoiding the very thing that I should do.
If you get the chance share what you think are actions that men should stand up and take
Thank you
Your brother
David
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Permalink Reply by michael on -
Hi Steve Mc et al,
You wrote:
The author suggests that the IC become more "guy" friendly.
Christianity from its inception has been a "religion" of women, slaves, and "weaklings."
Islam is a "macho" religion, which is one of the reasons it is growing so fast these days despite its bad press.
The cross is offensive to men at the core, more than it is to women. Whether it proclaimed during SC or IC, we guys need to learn from Jesus how to be "meek and lowly at heart"...not exactly ideals that'll get you the next corporate promotion.
But it helps when it comes to which tier we might fit onto in God's Kingdom.
Shalom from Manila,
--Michael
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Permalink Reply by Steven McDade on
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The first thing that I believe men need to do is get to KNOW Jesus. Find out who he really is, and I'm not talking about the whole Jesus is God thing. Jesus is the new Adam, the template and model, a human 2.0. What it took for me was to read the four Gospel accounts, even going outside of the Bible to other sources.
Looking at David Roe's response and his "hands on" approach is very natural for men. We need to be hands on and DO as Jesus did. When I first started to follow Jesus, being a long time prisoner in the IC, I had to figure out how to break out of the tradition that was keeping me passive. That took reading because that was the only way I was learning from our Father.
It took a book called "No More Christian Nice Guy" by Paul Coughlin to turn my vision of Jesus around into a more accurate one.
IMO, and others such as Paul Coughlin and David Morrow is that men need to be the male of the humans.
Frank Viola writes in "From Eternity To Here" that the female was taken out of the male to create Eve. This to me says that we, male and female, are equal but different. There a qualities that both have, but are expressed differently.
I encourage you to read FETH for a better understanding. Frank deserves the credit.
I have a radical idea, and I have done this before, but it works better if you are face to face, but I'm willing to help you through the book "No More Christian Nice Guy" in a on line book study. I lead one on another group. Are you game?
The book really change the way I view Jesus and our mission in the world.
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