Women speaking in the meetings anyone?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sandy McCoy- Foust on March 13, 2010 at 3:24pm

Well I believe this discussion will open up a can of worms!! So many differences on this...but if you want my take... it was a cultural thing! for instance in Corinth....the women were being loud and obnoxious from what I gathered.....so it was made a law.

I do believe the man is the head of "His home" and the woman is to be submissive..but not controlled! There is a difference...

And yes...women need to speak...there is a need for both.....we are to teach and encourage each other. For instance...my husband..who struggled for years with condemnation..before we were married, was encouraged (and I believe taught) through my reading of the word to him in promises that confirmed Gods love. One of which he held to and even acknowledged at our wedding ceremony was Phil.1 v.6; Read by Paul & Timothy.."For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.....it helped him hold on when he felt like a failure....

Galatians 3 v.28 says "There is neither jew nor greek, neither slave or free man, neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus..

That's my thoughts
Blessings :)

Permalink Reply by michael on March 13, 2010 at 6:19pm

There were in Corinth women speaking in tongues, so that is not complete silence. We have the example of Priscilla and Aquilla teaching Apollos together, so apparently that is how women who know more then certain men may instruct them, i.e. along with their husbands. Paul's reasoning for his restrictions about women is not cultural, but arch-typical, going back to events of the created order and the fall. His words are at odds with many cultural values of today, but they are Scripture nonetheless and must be respectfully considered. Not merely dismissed...as is too often the case these days.

Another quick addition: In Jesus' and Paul's day women mingled with men in synagogue worship (and most synagogues met in private homes) so the proposed backdrop that the women were asking questions from the "women's section" is anachronistic. There is no evidence of women being separated from the men during congregational worship until the Byzantine (Constantinian) period. Up until then, the evidence strongly points to genders mixing freely during worship times together, even in the Jerusalem temple. So I doubt the situation was women being too noisy due to being separated and thus asking questions and whatnot from a distance.

Just some thoughts. My advice for what it's worth: Take Paul here seriously, don't ignore what he wrote. Try to wrestle honestly with the Scriptures here, even if they drive you to positions at odds with your culture. Do not be dogmatic on this matter. Allow for varying viable views arrived at through honest dealings with sacred Scripture. There is often more merit in the struggle than there is in the conclusion. We must make sure we stay godly and sanctified during our wrestlings with the Almighty through His written word and that, if err we may (and we will here and there), that we err on the side of mercy, love, and grace.

Shalom from Manila,
--Michael

P.S. Gal 3:28 is not talking about the erasure of role distinctions. It is talking about equal access to God. Role distinctions remain.

Permalink Reply by Gregory Allen Stultz on March 15, 2010 at 9:18pm

Hi,

This came up on our very first meeting (last Sunday night!) and we looked thru the word together and concluded that it simply means what it says. I looked on line for a trustworthy treatment of the passages that talk about women speaking in the assemblies and found two articles that I thought nailed it while powerfully refuting the "doesnt matter" or "that was then" or the "cultural" argument put forward by DA Carson and Wayne Gruden.

Here: http://www.bible-researcher.com/women-prophesying.html

and Here: http://www.opc.org/new_horizons/9601a.html

If I could encourage anyone in doubt about this it would be to prepare your hearts to stand firm against the World, the zeitgeist, the pressure of our present culture, dedicate yourselves to obeying God in all things no matter how contrary it is to your natural inclinations, and then read the word and prayerfully apply it. Pray for our new house church please.

Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love,

Greg Stultz

Permalink Reply by michael on March 15, 2010 at 9:31pm

And yet, Gregory, there are those biblical exceptions to a seemingly absolute stand on women being altogether silent in congregational get-togethers. These too should be factored into the mix, right? That way we arrive at something closer to a biblical orthopraxy. And that way we are not simply developing extreme positions and practices that, although trying to be faithful to [some of] the written revelation of God, are also reactions against radical feminist encroachment into the EKKLESIA. I advise caution and grace on this topic especially, not as a compromise with the KOSMOS. Rather, I advise caution and grace as we apply Scripture equitably so as to honor our God with His Christ, and so as not to marginalize the women in our midst who have historically been the backbone of the EKKLESIA. Also, we should not seem any more culturally irrelevant than we Christians need to be. Caution and grace will go a long way to avoid the extremes on both sides of this issue.

Do you follow what I'm trying to say?

Shalom from Manila,
--Michael

Permalink Reply by Gregory Allen Stultz on March 15, 2010 at 9:37pm

I think so. It will be interesting to see how God will lead to express this as the general principal to be modeled in our fellowship times to new Saints and the searching itenerant christians we reach out to. Could you call me if you are still up. 410-924-8659?

Permalink Reply by jeromy and Marcelia on March 20, 2010 at 10:21am

What about the letter to Timothy? I think he was in another region?

Sandy McCoy- Foust said:

Well I believe this discussion will open up a can of worms!! So many differences on this...but if you want my take... it was a cultural thing! for instance in Corinth....the women were being loud and obnoxious from what I gathered.....so it was made a law.

I do believe the man is the head of "His home" and the woman is to be submissive..but not controlled! There is a difference...

And yes...women need to speak...there is a need for both.....we are to teach and encourage each other. For instance...my husband..who struggled for years with condemnation..before we were married, was encouraged (and I believe taught) through my reading of the word to him in promises that confirmed Gods love. One of which he held to and even acknowledged at our wedding ceremony was Phil.1 v.6; Read by Paul & Timothy.."For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.....it helped him hold on when he felt like a failure....

Galatians 3 v.28 says "There is neither jew nor greek, neither slave or free man, neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus..

That's my thoughts
Blessings :)

Permalink Reply by jeromy and Marcelia on March 20, 2010 at 10:23am

This is what we are wrestling with now. Great point about "the spirit of the age"

Gregory Allen Stultz said:

Hi,

This came up on our very first meeting (last Sunday night!) and we looked thru the word together and concluded that it simply means what it says. I looked on line for a trustworthy treatment of the passages that talk about women speaking in the assemblies and found two articles that I thought nailed it while powerfully refuting the "doesnt matter" or "that was then" or the "cultural" argument put forward by DA Carson and Wayne Gruden.

Here: http://www.bible-researcher.com/women-prophesying.html

and Here: http://www.opc.org/new_horizons/9601a.html

If I could encourage anyone in doubt about this it would be to prepare your hearts to stand firm against the World, the zeitgeist, the pressure of our present culture, dedicate yourselves to obeying God in all things no matter how contrary it is to your natural inclinations, and then read the word and prayerfully apply it. Pray for our new house church please.

Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love,

Greg Stultz

Permalink Reply by jeromy and Marcelia on March 20, 2010 at 10:32am

http://books.jesuslifetogether.com/Meetings-in-His-Kingdom/Where-Do...

Tell me what you think?

michael said:

And yet, Gregory, there are those biblical exceptions to a seemingly absolute stand on women being altogether silent in congregational get-togethers. These too should be factored into the mix, right? That way we arrive at something closer to a biblical orthopraxy. And that way we are not simply developing extreme positions and practices that, although trying to be faithful to [some of] the written revelation of God, are also reactions against radical feminist encroachment into the EKKLESIA. I advise caution and grace on this topic especially, not as a compromise with the KOSMOS. Rather, I advise caution and grace as we apply Scripture equitably so as to honor our God with His Christ, and so as not to marginalize the women in our midst who have historically been the backbone of the EKKLESIA. Also, we should not seem any more culturally irrelevant than we Christians need to be. Caution and grace will go a long way to avoid the extremes on both sides of this issue.

Do you follow what I'm trying to say?

Shalom from Manila,
--Michael

Permalink Reply by Sandy McCoy- Foust on March 20, 2010 at 11:13am

Bonnie Jaeckle just posted a blog on this very thing..and suggested a book by Jon Zens...maybe it will shed some light.....

jeromy and Marcelia said:

What about the letter to Timothy? I think he was in another region?

Sandy McCoy- Foust said:

Well I believe this discussion will open up a can of worms!! So many differences on this...but if you want my take... it was a cultural thing! for instance in Corinth....the women were being loud and obnoxious from what I gathered.....so it was made a law.

I do believe the man is the head of "His home" and the woman is to be submissive..but not controlled! There is a difference...

And yes...women need to speak...there is a need for both.....we are to teach and encourage each other. For instance...my husband..who struggled for years with condemnation..before we were married, was encouraged (and I believe taught) through my reading of the word to him in promises that confirmed Gods love. One of which he held to and even acknowledged at our wedding ceremony was Phil.1 v.6; Read by Paul & Timothy.."For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.....it helped him hold on when he felt like a failure....

Galatians 3 v.28 says "There is neither jew nor greek, neither slave or free man, neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus..

That's my thoughts
Blessings :)

Permalink Reply by Felicity Dale on March 21, 2010 at 5:52am

You have picked the two most challenging passages about women in the New Testament. At first glance, the appear to limit women's particpation in meetings. However, if one takes the whole drift of the NT, which is towards emancipation and freedom, then these passages can be viewed with integrity in another way.

Here's what I have written elsewhere on this topic:

These verses cannot literally be taken to mean they all women are to be silent in church, because earlier in chapter 11, women are told to pray and prophesy with their heads covered. So let’s look at it more closely. In chapter 7, Paul states that he is answering questions the Corinthians have posed to him in a letter. He then proceeds to discuss a number of differing situations, and chapter 14 is a part of this discourse.

There are actually three sets of people who are told to be silent (Greek sigao) in 1 Corinthians 14. In each of the other two situations, the problem is mentioned, they are told to be silent, and then a solution is given. The first occurs when someone wants to speak in a tongue but there is no one present to interpret (verses 27 and 28). The solution? They are to be silent (sigao) and to speak to God privately. The second happens when more than one person has a prophecy (verses 29 and 30). Solution? The first person is to be silent and the second deliver what God has given them. However, in the verses about women, Paul doesn’t describe the problem, perhaps because he thought it was obvious. Presumably some women were causing a disruption by asking questions in the meeting. Solution? Rather than cause a disruption, they were to ask their husbands at home. No one assumes in either of the first two situations that the instruction to be silent was for every situation and for all time, but these verses on women have been used to keep them silent for centuries.

The other major passage that causes problems for women comes in 1Timothy 2. Paul apparently does not permit women to teach or have authority over a man (verses 9-15). Time does not permit to go into this in detail, but clarity comes in the singular and plural uses of the word “woman.” There are certain instructions given that apply to women (plural), but the challenging verses apply to a woman (singular). A good explanation would be that there was one particular woman who was causing problems with wrong teaching, and a description of some disciplinary action taken to stop her is described in this passage. This would be similar to the discipline prescribed for an unnamed man in 1 Corinthians 5.

These passages have been used to keep half the body of Christ shackled for centuries. What will happen when women are released into their full potential in the Kingdom.

I plan to blog on this subject very soon--within the next week or so. (My blog is featured on the main page in case anyone is interested to pursue this further.)

Permalink Reply by Connie on March 21, 2010 at 10:32am

Jeromy and Marcella, Timothy 2 says that women are to be silent, but if you go right into Timothy 3, Paul is speaking about offices in the priesthood. I assume Paul was referring to the Priesthood of God when he said we should be subject to and silent in. My personal opinion is that women should respect their husbands as he respects and honors the Lord. In the case of the husband holding the priesthood, the husband would be representing God in the church, or in the home. Paul is speaking to priesthood holders, and members of the church in this letter to Timothy, and not to the public in general, or those who did not understand this "great mystery of godliness".

1 Timothy 3:16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Permalink Reply by Tony Puccio on March 21, 2010 at 4:26pm

Here are a few thoughts I have on this subject:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
Gen 1:27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

Here it says that both were created in God's image and in His likeness. In other words, they were created as equals. Matthew Henry's commentary says that woman was not created from the feet of the man that she should be beneath him, nor from the head of the man that she should be above him, but from his rib that she should walk beside him.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth.

Together, they were to be fruitful and multiply, have(not take) dominion. over God's creation not each other.

The Jewish view of marriage is that marriage is a fusion of the souls,
a partnershipfor life.

God created the first man, Adam, and the first woman, Eve, from one
body. Marriage returns us to oneness. Men and women become complete
through marriage.

Rabbinic tradition teaches that a marriage will only be peaceful if
God is a part of the union.

The Hebrew word for man is EISH, which is spelled Aleph - Yud - Shin.

The Hebrew word for woman is EISHA, which is spelled Aleph - Shin -
Hay.

The letters Yud and Hay combine to form the Hebrew name for God.

Removing the letters Yud and Hay (God) from the words EISH and EISHA,
leaves the letters Aleph and Shin. Aleph and Shin spell ESH, which is
the word for fire.

Thus, Judaism teaches that if God is not made a part of the union
between a man and a woman, then the couple will be left with fire.

After the fall, the Lord said to Eve, in Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you shall bring forth children; Yet your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you." . This is part of the curse, however, in Jesus, Galatians says the following: Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Thus the curse is taken away.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

If Jesus came to seek and to save, "that" which was lost,Luke 19:10, then it is my belief that while the first Adam saw paradise lost because of rebellion, the second Adam, Jesus, saw it regained because of obedience.

There are similarities between the blessing given in the Garden of Eden and the one given by Jesus when giving the great commission.

Gen 1:28 God blessed them;

Luk 24:50 And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them.

Gen 1:28 "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it;

Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

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