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Since I am new to the House Church Movement and have only been apart of "simple church" or church for almost a year I arise with a question. The historical part of these questions arise from my history with Church. I grew up in church all of my life. I have always heard the pastoral messages where the pastor instills while the church sits still. However, I was asked to prepare a lesson one week for church and it did not go as well as I like it because I have always been apart of the mold of the "American church." My question is what is a proper way to prepare lessons for church and what lessons are applicable because i feel that the pastor/church mold is not proper nor needed. There has to be more, there must be more of the community aspect of lessons in church, and I get confused on what that looks like. I really understand that this is kind of a stupid or simple question but really I am seeking feedback on what "you" as the community of House churchs around the nation of America and around the world are doing to in your lessons, how you are structuring your time in church, and how things look from your perspective on your church. Thanks for your time and hope to hear feedback from everyone very soon!
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Permalink Reply by Tony Dale on -
I would like to comment on Chuck's original question, and then, as one of the people responsible for the site, I will also add comments on the appropriateness of allowing people of other/not clearly Christian faiths to post on this site.
First, nearly all of us with church type backgrounds tend to assume that we must have a plan/program for what is going to happen in our times together. But this misses the reality that Jesus in the the midst when we get together, and He wants to lead our times as we learn to listen to Him through the gentle prodding of the Holy Spirit within us. That is why 1 Corinthians 14:26 is so key. It says everyone is involved, and it clearly implies that some of that involvement is by the Holy Spirit moving among us through His gifts (see 1 Corinthians 12) to reveal Jesus more clearly. As John White says in the excellent video that you can get from www.house2house.com (When You Come Together), "programs seems to be what we do when we don't know how to follow the Holy Spirit."
Are there patterns and principles that we should use as guidelines in our times together? Sure! We see passages like Acts 2:42 that show the early Christians devoting themselves to:
1. The Apostles doctrine-probably something vaguely analogous to us getting regularly into the Bible to learn what Jesus taught. In a small group this is not best done by one person teaching, but by everyone discussing in interactive ways what you are looking at together in the Bible. If you don't know how to do this interactively in a small group, get hold of Simply Church (that Felicity and I wrote a number of years ago, or maybe the Getting Started manual, both again available from www.house2house.com). Maybe plan as a group to cover a small book together this way, looking at 10-20 verses a week, until the book is covered, or in a longer section, like one of the Gospels, cover a few chapters over the next month or so, and then go to another part of the Bible to encourage variety.
2. Fellowship and 3. sharing meals together seem to go very closely together. Our experience over many years is that churches that eat together go deeper in fellowship. Meal times are wonderful times for catching up on what Jesus is doing in each other's lives, sharing stories of what we call "God events" (ways we are seeing God answer prayer) in our lives, and generally encouraging a passion in following Jesus in every part of everyday life.
4. Finally, we try to see prayer together, and for each other in most of our times together. Prayer works, and prayer is powerful, and prayer helps to keep us focused on the needs of the world and not just each other. We strongly encourage people to be praying together in pairs (usually by phone, because none of us have time to get together physically every day) with a strong focus on Luke 10:2b, what is known by many as the Luke 10:2b virus-"Pray the Lord of the harvest that He will sent forth laborers into the harvest.
Enough on our times together. Let me also comment on the appropriateness or otherwise of people using these discussion threads to point people towards LDS sites, or any other faith for that matter. Clearly this site is focused on historic, evangelical (meaning Bible believing, which may be interpreted differently by different people) Christianity. It is a place for sharing honest questions, but hardly the place for tring to win folk to other faiths. Do Christians and Mormons share many values in common. Absolutely! But that does not mean that we should use a site devoted to one thing (Primarily discussion of simple church life within the framework of basic Christianity) to try to accomplish a completely separate agenda. If someone's agenda is to try to win folk to the Mormon faith, it would be polite and appropriate for them to set up their own site with that plan in mind. But if someone from any background, including LDS, is trying to understand what we do and what we believe, then they should be welcome here, and the group involved in the discussion thread should be able to together handle the questions, and where they feel appropriate encourage/teach the seeker to focus on the discussion thread and not use someone else's discussion thread as a place to push their own alternate agenda. Only is the common courtesy is flagrantly ignored, and they problem gets reported to the site manager ([email protected]) would we then intervene.
So Cathy, why not add a phote to your profile, and a last name and location so that we feel we know who you are. If you have questions that apply to simple church life, lets all explore them together. But if your real goal is to bring people from Christian groups to Mormonism, then it would be better for you to set up your own site. In the meantime, Carolyn and others, if Cathy is open to off-line discussion on her subjects, and you like to engage in that conversation, then go for it. But if she does not want to identify herself, let me know, and if necessary, we can restrict her from actively participating on the site.
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Permalink Reply by Nik P. on -
Tony Dale said:In the meantime, Carolyn and others, if Cathy is open to off-line discussion on her subjects, and you like to engage in that conversation, then go for it. But if she does not want to identify herself, let me know, and if necessary, we can restrict her from actively participating on the site.
Oops, her name is Connie.
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Permalink Reply by Connie on -
I didn't know you cared. http://www.westwind.ab.ca/index.php?option=com_contact&task=vie...
Why would I care whether or not any of you embrace Mormonism??? I am a Mormon and when I write and quote scripture, of course I'm going to go to the resources I'm familiar with. l'm more than willing to engage in off-line discussions, but I guarantee I'll never start one.
I regard it a privilege and an honor to be able to join with this group of Christian leaders, to see how you think, what ticks you off, what makes you happy, how you serve one another. I am excited to discover we have faith in God in common, and I'm determined to loosen you up toward Mormonism, to help you see that what we have isn't all that bad. I can be one with you. You don't have to fear me or anything about Mormonism. I want you to be able to relax your fears about us. We're all Christians together. I LOVE our Lord Jesus Christ, and worship Him faithfully, as you do. We understand his nature differently, but that doesn't mean the essence of our worship is that different. God has led me to this site and I'm glad to stay as long as I feel right about doing so. As you'll see in my school profile, I am community and people oriented, and love to serve in which ever way I can. I am a genuine person with nothing to hide. I'm not trying to be sneaky and convert you all to Mormonism. Do you think I'm that stupid??? I know who you are and what you stand for. Honestly, all I want to do is help you bring the spirit of Christ into this forum, and the only way I know how to do that is exactly how I do it.
I'm not offended by any of the negatives that are said about me or my religion, and I'm not about to allow any spark to start burning out of control. I totally understand why you think the way you do about us, and until the You and Us become We..........I'll keep loving each one of you.
connie
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Permalink Reply by Carolyn on -
Connie, it is good to have a photo. There isn't fear in dealing with Mormons or Mormonism. There is appropriateness of the site, because we really are different and the basis of our faith is really different. For example, Christian believers do not have to be worthy of anything by merit - not in the life or in the next age. But, Mormonism is changing just as many Christian denominations are changing, but the Jesus you worship really is different, has a different beginning, a different end, a different purpose, a different status, and a different spirit than the one being taught in the Mormon faith. Whereas, the Jesus for a Christian believer remains the same though our practises may differ.
The principles of good and evil are very similar, but the reality of Christ alive in us, the nature of the kingdom of God, and the grace of God, and the reality and presence of the Holy Spirit are vastly different. The only way we can become one, will be when you become born from above and filled with the spirit of our Jesus too.
You may use similar words, but your meanings are different based on the texts which start from a different place, and lead in different directions. The problem is that those words can be very misleading to new believers, so it is a problem for them to be promoted on a site for Christian believers. Perhaps you can start another site, and we can dialogue about it there.
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Permalink Reply by Connie on
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Carolyn Spence said:but the Jesus you worship really is different, has a different beginning, a different end, a different purpose, a different status, and a different spirit than the one being taught in the Mormon faith.
Carolyn, did you mean to write this or was it in error? If it was intentional, there has been a grave misunderstanding somewhere. I don't want to discuss it here, but just to let you know, I know what the Mormon faith teaches about Christ.
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Permalink Reply by Carolyn on
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Connie, that was a lot of words to be writing in error. I did mean to write what I did because it is true. I did not mean to say that you don't know what the Mormon faith teaches. What I meant is that the teachings do not agree with the Christian view of who Jesus is, what he has done, where he has come from, where he is going, or his status now.
Sometimes people don't think the differences mean much, but they do. They mean that the person of Jesus Christ is different than they know him to be. We want to know the true saviour. We want to experience him, and follow him, and be a part of his body. Following scripture alone can give us his nature and character. What the Book of Mormon teaches is not the truth about him.
We cannot worship together when we worship a different Lord. The nature of his essence cannot be different and have us worship him together. So, first let us decide who He is, and divine his nature, and then let us agree together to love and serve him. God loves Mormons too. You did say he led you here. We can seek his true being together.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Rhodes on -
The way it seems to work for us is that we talk about what has been going on the previous week. Concerns. Burdens. What God has been saying or doing. We are re-connecting and building a list for prayer later. What usually happens is that there will be something that sparks, something that leads to the Word. Before you know it the Bibles are out and we are searching the Word for answers. We have also found it good just to read from the Word. We take turns reading from the Bible and stopping from time to time to discuss. Going from discussion to a time of asking God to do what we have just been reading is a natural transition which leads to our time of prayer.
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Permalink Reply by Connie on
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Oh, that sounds so enriching. I can't do that because my family wouldn't cooperate and my friends don't gather, but what I enjoy is sitting quietly in my living room (by myself) and tuning into the television (or computer) with a group of professors from BYUniversity and following along with my own scriptures as they discuss from theirs. Here is their web-site, and there are wonderful discussions from the New Testament. I always learn something new that I've never thought of before.
http://byubmp3.byu.edu/scripturediscussions/705/705-105.mp3. Of course, there will be LDS references because they are speaking to an LDS audience, but the things that are taught are amazing, and I believe true. http://byub.org/new/scriptures/
Jeff Rhodes said:The way it seems to work for us is that we talk about what has been going on the previous week. Concerns. Burdens. What God has been saying or doing. We are re-connecting and building a list for prayer later. What usually happens is that there will be something that sparks, something that leads to the Word. Before you know it the Bibles are out and we are searching the Word for answers. We have also found it good just to read from the Word. We take turns reading from the Bible and stopping from time to time to discuss. Going from discussion to a time of asking God to do what we have just been reading is a natural transition which leads to our time of prayer.
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Permalink Reply by Carolyn on
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While God loves Mormons, it is not because their scripture studies will lead anyone to truth. Jesus Christ of the Bible is the way and the truth and the life. The Jesus Christ of the Church of Latter Day Saints LDS, is not the same Jesus. As we have pointed out before, he does not have the same origin, purpose, source, destiny, or current status. For example, LDS doctrine teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers. LDS, that is Mormon, doctrine is severly flawed.
Promoting LDS sources of information is not an attempt to enquire after truth, but rather an attempt to lead those who have not been well taught and who don't know Christian doctrines well into the LDS indoctrination. The subject of the errors of the LDS church are documented on such sites as www.carm.org ., This link to a site on Christian Apologetics will lead to their section on what Mormonism actually teaches. Knowing this information helps keep one from being deceived by hearing some doctrines which sound the same as Christianity, but actually have a different basis and meaning to the words.
http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/mormonism/what-does-mormoni...
And if you cannot copy that link because the name does not fully show, here is a short version link to the same site. http://tinyurl.com/cwes2u
Simplechurch.com is not the appropriate place for LDS discusssions, but since an attempt is being made to introduce the doctrines, it is appropriate to refute them here. Being "tolerant" of differences in faith is not appropriate when it is another faith that pretends to be Christian, but actually is not. When someone from the Mormon faith really wants to hear, we should share with them. When they want to "share" or "tell", then we must realize they are not listening. Connie, we can have good discussions, but the attempts at enticing words linked to indoctrinating websites, is simply not what Tony Dale has asked of you on this site. If you want to continue to dialog, I believe that the "linking" must not be continued.
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Permalink Reply by Connie on
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Yesterday at church I heard two things that really spoke to me. It was our fast and testimony meeting, which means there are no assigned speakers, but the meeting is open to anyone who feels like sharing as moved by the spirit of the Lord. One gentleman got up to speak, an older seasoned man, (just a little bit older than me). He told about his childhood, being raised in three Christian denominations by faithful devoted parents. His family moved to Nova Scotia when he was 11 years old and in the little town they were living, there was neither of the two church’s that his parents attended, but there was a United Church, so that’s where they faithfully went each Sabbath morning. He remembered distinctly one Sunday listening to the preacher give a sermon on the Trinity, explaining there are three individual gods, but they are one person. He was confused, and when he got home asked his mother “how could that be?” His mother answered, “I don’t know, but some day you will understand”. He was 11 years old at the time, and distinctly remembers his confusion, and his mother’s answer, which was prophetic for him.
A short time later his father went on a business trip and while there met two Mormon missionaries. He wrote home and told his wife he liked what they were teaching. She was not impressed and couldn’t wait to join him and teach those two “whippersnappers” a few things. So out she went, with her quiver full of questions, the kind meant to trap, not honest questions that are just seeking an honest answer.
The missionaries gave her a Book of Mormon and asked her to read a passage in it. As soon as she opened it and began to read, (he went on, with tears in his eyes) she knew it was true.
Perhaps that is why some on this site forbid me to link to LDS sites. The moment you look at them with only honest questions, you will know the truth?
The next meeting I attended yesterday was Sunday School, where the instructor began the class by asking us “which of the following things could we live without?”
1. Understanding of the nature of God
2. The Book of Mormon
3. Joseph Smith
4. The Priesthood
5. The temple
We realized we couldn’t picture our life without any of them.
I know for me, whenever I read the scriptures, the spirit tells me over and over, “this is true!” “this couldn’t have been made up” “Joseph Smith is a prophet”.
Everything I believe and hold dear to my heart, is because of Joseph Smith. He is the greatest man, next to Jesus, who ever lived. He taught me the true nature of God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. He brought us the Book of Mormon. He gave us the Priesthood of God. He restored the family to the eternal unit that it was meant to be. He restored me to the person I was created to be. Just thinking about this increases my faith in Christ. I know He lives.
One more thing I heard last night online: http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=11497
McConkie, “Finding Answers”
This dispels the idea that God has done it all. We are expected to find out for ourselves. Dena mentioned “Nothing will thwart God’s will” While that is true, I’d like to turn it around to say God will do nothing to thwart man’s will. My true nature? I am a spirit daughter of heavenly parents, divine in nature. I can choose right over wrong. I can find my way back to God’s presence. I am capable of becoming one with God. I can choose exactly where I’ll be in this life and in eternity. I can find answers and solve problems.
This song expresses it beautifully, “I am a child of God, And He has sent me here. Has given me an earthly home with parents kind and dear. Lead me, guide me, walk beside me, help me find the way, teach me all that I might know to live with Him some day.
The Atonement of Jesus Christ is for every one of us. No one will be excluded. Every one will face Christ one day. When we die, we take ourselves into heaven. God loves every single one of us. It is us who choose to exclude Him, and God will do nothing to thwart man’s will. Our agency (ability to choose) is God’s greatest gift to mankind. Satan’s plan was to have governments choose for us (slavery), and for him to be head of government. But man is better than that. Man can choose for himself without having to have those choices made by someone else. We can choose our own indwelling level of spirit by what we allow in.
I realize this last bit was in response to a post on another thread, but once you're on a roll, it's hard to divert:)
Carolyn, I think you're a dear soul, who has a deep converted faith in Christ. I would like you to recognize that I have a testimony of Jesus Christ too. I know He lives. My life is centered around Christ. There is room for both of us here. Simple Church is for people to meet in their own homes and believe whatever they feel God is leading them to believe. It is not right to force belief onto anyone. jmho
Carolyn Spence said:While God loves Mormons, it is not because their scripture studies will lead anyone to truth. Jesus Christ of the Bible is the way and the truth and the life. The Jesus Christ of the Church of Latter Day Saints LDS, is not the same Jesus. As we have pointed out before, he does not have the same origin, purpose, source, destiny, or current status. For example, LDS doctrine teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers. LDS, that is Mormon, doctrine is severly flawed.
Promoting LDS sources of information is not an attempt to enquire after truth, but rather an attempt to lead those who have not been well taught and who don't know Christian doctrines well into the LDS indoctrination. The subject of the errors of the LDS church are documented on such sites as www.carm.org ., This link to a site on Christian Apologetics will lead to their section on what Mormonism actually teaches. Knowing this information helps keep one from being deceived by hearing some doctrines which sound the same as Christianity, but actually have a different basis and meaning to the words. http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/mormonism/what-does-mormoni...
And if you cannot copy that link because the name does not fully show, here is a short version link to the same site. http://tinyurl.com/cwes2u
Simplechurch.com is not the appropriate place for LDS discusssions, but since an attempt is being made to introduce the doctrines, it is appropriate to refute them here. Being "tolerant" of differences in faith is not appropriate when it is another faith that pretends to be Christian, but actually is not. When someone from the Mormon faith really wants to hear, we should share with them. When they want to "share" or "tell", then we must realize they are not listening. Connie, we can have good discussions, but the attempts at enticing words linked to indoctrinating websites, is simply not what Tony Dale has asked of you on this site. If you want to continue to dialog, I believe that the "linking" must not be continued.
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Permalink Reply by jeromy and Marcelia on -
My best thoughts on this subject.........I would typically like to see all the people of Yeshua in prayer and study all week or on a daily basis. When we than come together we can see the meeting function in the way that Paul explains in corithians.
1Co 14:26 -
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
I do think there is a place for verse by verse or topic study . I think this functions better in very small groups of two and three or maybe four.
I would also say be open to all that the Holy Spirit wants to do and say in the meeting. He must have the freedom to interrupt all we have our minds set to do. You can over spiritualize things but I beleive the more you practice his headship the more sensitive we become.
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Permalink Reply by jeromy and Marcelia on
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I think you will be very unsuccessful in converting anyone here to Mormonism. The people you will encounter will be very far advanced in our knowledge of history and the nature of the body of Christ,which is why we are here to discuss the body life of the true church of Yeshua the Messiah.
Now you may find some interesting things about the LDS if you are willing to look. First you are in a cult started by a Freemason who was connected to Albert Pike the man who started the KKK. This is a fact search it out. you may be interested in investigative Journal listen to an interview Greg doest with a true ott 3-10-09. True was in one of the high blood families of the LDS. It is a very good show you will learn alot if you are interested.
I am not saying this to be hateful to you, I do not even know you as a person, The Internet is a place for friends to be made. It does not work well to discuss disagreements. The reason , we can't see your face you can't see ours. If we could there would be more of a chance to be understood and to show love.
I don't come on this sight to do apologetics. I come to encourage and be encouraged. If I want to talk to Mormons I invite them to dinner and a chat.We did, they did not come?
I do not have an issue with you I don't know you. I just think you have picked the wrong place to try to recruit.
You may say we are all so hateful and angry but trust me we are not angry we just will not fall for the false teaching of Mr. Smith .
http://www.arcticbeacon.com/greg/ Here you will find the show I spoke of. Very interesting it may lead you somewhere you don't want to go however,to truth.Look in the show archives 3-10-09 I would like to hear your thoughts after you listen.
Ro 16:17
Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.
2Jo 1:9 -
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son
Connie said:Carolyn Spence said:but the Jesus you worship really is different, has a different beginning, a different end, a different purpose, a different status, and a different spirit than the one being taught in the Mormon faith.
Carolyn, did you mean to write this or was it in error? If it was intentional, there has been a grave misunderstanding somewhere. I don't want to discuss it here, but just to let you know, I know what the Mormon faith teaches about Christ.
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