Healthily engaging theology

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dena Brehm on September 7, 2008 at 4:16pm

Hi Xander...!

I totally agree that we can enjoy (& grow from) a healthy theological dialoge in simple church ... especially given that we all seem to be involved in an ongoing UN-learning and RE-learning process on this journey with, and toward, Jesus.

But, to have a meaningful conversation, we probably should define a few terms, so that we can be on the same page here ...

By "formal religious education" do you mean seminary? Bible college? Either? both?

How would it be determined what constitutes a biblical (or even healthy) approach to such an education? Which of the plethora of approaches to theology would we embrace? Which ones have proven to build up the Body, and bring us to unity? Which ones have enabled us to truly love God, and each other?

My ponderances seem focused on the fruit of such a formal religious education ... my own husband spent 3 years in seminary, and then served as ordained clergy for many years ... as he puts it, most of what he spent time learning in seminary, he has had to un-learn since seminary (though we trust God to redeem all things).

But, what God has since led him to study, out of a desire to know Him relationally, has been invaluable. Less dissectible, to be sure, but but far more important.

As I see it, a good deal (but not all) of the fruit from formal religious education has been head-knowledge, division, elitism, and exclusivity... it's not the inevitable outcome, but history bears out some pretty rotten fruit ...

I've heard recently that in order to know a thing, western/rational thinking leads us to capture the thing, and analyze/scrutinize/dissect the thing ... whereas easter/experiential thinking leads us to dance with the thing ...

I'm a product of western thinking, and I've long been all about scrutinizing, analyzing and dissecting all manner of things. I've done that with the things of God, as well. Now, what I'm sensing from Him, is that He's inviting me to dance with Him ... as we dance, He whispers many things into my heart.

Thar ya are -- my current thoughts...!

Anyone else?

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

Permalink Reply by Xander Waites on October 15, 2008 at 2:32pm

Dena,
Rick,

I hope that my long wait before replying has not made it seem like I do not care about what you have said. I care very much, and I sense we share some of the same concerns.

What I am after is not a commercial for any particular seminary/university, or even a particular pedagogy. There are DEFINITELY lousy programs out there offering formal theological education, and rationality and study haven't actually saved the world yet.

What is most important in a house church? Kingdom life? Relationship with other people? The participation of everyone? Listen, obey, teach others to do likewise? What is the House Church Raison d'Etre? From this, everything else stems. Is there a place for formal theological education and reflection in this? What place does the life of the mind have in being a Christian?

When I say 'formal theological education' OR 'formal religious education' I do, in fact, mean seminary or some other academic setting. I am speaking of the life of the mind.

I, too, have heard from dear friends that they had to unlearn much of what they had been told in seminary during their first few months/years doing 'actual' ministry. That is tragic; what a waste of time and money! I have not had that experience, though. My time at Rochester College and Abilene Christian University has been very formational. Through study I have been drawn nearer to God, encountered God's love and affirmation, and come into contact with people who have dedicated their lives to our King. Academically speaking, the most significant lesson has been of my own ignorance. The more I learn the more I realize how much there is I don't know! Not just me, either... there's a lot that WE don't (can't) know as humans. And this under the tutelage of very bright professors!

I am a dancer. Many people do not think my dancing is particularly good because it doesn't look like what you see in music videos or at ballroom competitions. I jump and run and spin around and wave my arms and legs all over the place. Not many people see me do this, actually, so I guess I don't know if they think I am a good dancer or not.

Have you seen the movie 'Chariots Of Fire'? There is a scene where Eric Liddell (an Olympic sprinter) is talking with his sister (who would rather he be a missionary than a competitive athlete) and Eric says, "God gave me a mission, to go to China and preach the gospel. But He also made me fast and when I run, I feel His pleasure." Eric had mystical experiences - dances - with God while he was sprinting.

God has given me a mission in His world, and I try to love the Lord and other people as God would have me. But he also made me curious! And smart! And a critical thinker! And when I learn - carefully, rationally, sometimes tediously, always in humility - I feel His pleasure. Is there a place for me in the Kingdom of God? In the house church?

Why do I feel like learning is regarded as so much less hip than uber-emotional, outwardly expressive spirituality? Surely we don't mean that all critical thinking is inferior to all emotional/experiential 'beliefs'and probably actually a hindrance to God's love?

So how do we engage theology in the house church movement without 1) falling into the deathtrap of over-scholasticism or 2) writing off academic rigor because we've been burnt in the past?

Gosh, this is a long post. I am sorry about that; I hope it has been worth your time to read.

Love,
Xander

Permalink Reply by Katie Mather on December 7, 2008 at 1:16pm

Even though this is an old discussion, I find that I must comment. I did not attend the 2008 H2H conference, but I have attended the 2006 conference in Denver as a representative of Covenant Bible Institute, a Bible college founded on house church/open church/simple church principles. Last year, Tony and Felicity Dale used our facilities to host the H2H southeast regional conference. I do not know the Dales personally but have had casual aquaintance with them.

With all that said, here is my comment. I cannot say if there was a uncercurrent of anti advanced "religious" educational sentiment. I was not there. But from my experience in trying to start a Bible college over the last 5 years, I can say that there is alot of anti-instituional opinions over that. We developed courses that focused on Returning to Hebrew Roots, How Church Ought to Be and Simply Church.

We had courses that equipped believers to function and minister in the home setting without the clergy/laity distinction through courses in the Prophetic, Deliverance, Wholeness and Inner Healing, Dream Interpretation and much more. We functioned in a sit and discuss yeshiva style rather than lecture style. We had classes video streaming online and students could participate from across the nation. There were many lively discussions, powerful revelations, people laughed together, prayed together and cried together.

But after 5 years, we found that people were not interested in doing college level work simple for the sake of "self-improvement." We received alot of scorn about why should we be forming another institution to deinstitutionalize people from the institution.

Covenant Bible Institute no longer exists as of May 2008 with the final graduating class. All Bible colleges and universities were established as a result of some denomination wanting to educate on their views and theology. The house church movement is still too much in the reactionary stage to support this as a valid form of growth through higher education.

Now I am finding there is a stream that is opposed to any form of institution, whether church, school or government, maybe even corporate institutions too. Maybe this is all reactionary. For me, leaving the IC was about being the church rather than attending church. But that doesn't necessarily mean that all institutions are bad. If you want to be a doctor and save people's lives, you are going to have to attend an institution and abide by governmental restrictions. But to have a relationship with the Creator, it is not necessary to attend an institution. But studying in depth with a group of people about certain aspects of church history and practical ministry is not necessarily IC. It is just a little more intense than a home group setting where one may not be able to engage in that level of discussion and teaching.

So I find that there is a place for it, but since the house church movement is still in the reactionary stage, it is not ready or willing to support higher education.

Permalink Reply by Bethel Watt on December 11, 2008 at 5:38pm

I find this discussion quite interesting. I don't know if my thoughts will add any to the process but I will impart my (our) experiences.

10 years ago I started a 'true' search for God. I was raised in church for 18 years and left it as far behind as I could when I left my parents home. My brother has been a pastor of a 7th day baptist denomination for many years - there was strife between him and my mother and grandmother because he went to 7th day. Jesus never left me, as He promised. The Holy Spirit continued to make His presence known to me over the next 20+ years until the day that I sat on my front porch, broken beyond measure and cried out to Him.

That being said, I knew that the teaching I had received in my youth was mishmashed. That is what sent me running in the first place. There was so much diversion in the teaching verses the word. As I was crying out and literally breaking into pieces that night on the porch I told God that I wanted to know Him, His truths. That I realized there were many things that I was taught in the church that didn't match up to His word. I didn't want the teachings of man, I wanted to know His truths.

By June I was going to an independent church, the pastor was brought ordained in the AOG. Every message I took notes and studied the teaching. I became a youth pastor and praise and worship leader. I dug in to the Word of God, I kept having questions that were unanswered or were not satisfactory answers by the church leadership and by the books I was digging in to. I took courses on discipleship and youth pastoring and leadership and evangelizing. I wanted to know God. I wanted to know His truth.
Father moved me from that church by a split and I began going to another independent church. At this church He connected me with a man who is now a very dear friend and brother. He was asking questions, piercing questions. Questions that questioned why the answers to the questions we were asking weren't getting answered. Together God started bible study with us, studying with people in our world circles that were not 'churched' people. And we started searching out teachings that were not necessarily accepted in the 'theologically educated' of the protestant churches. Comparing the teachings of Oswald Chambers, Herbert W. Armstrong and E.B.White to the teachings we already knew and questioning the variances to the written Word of God. Then we were introduced to writings by E.W. Bullinger, A.W.Tozer, Pilkington, and David Bercot. Bullinger was quite controversial in his day simply because he spoke and wrote strictly what God said, which was not always in alignment with the IC. Tozer was accepted at arms length as he didn't step on as many toes but still wrote directly aligning his writings with the Word. Bercot is controversial as he strives to go back to and live in the ways of the anti-nicene church. Pilkington is another writer of today that seeks the truth and nothing but the truth. Always taking these to the Word and lining them up with scripture. We have read many other writings and studied so very much in the past 3 years.

I say all of the above to state that education in the Word is so very important. Theology, eschatology, and all those other ologies, I find none of those words in the scriptures, they seem to formulate mans ideas vs Gods. (Please feel free to disagree) I do find the word 'doctrine' in scripture. There is the doctrine of God and the doctrine of man.

If one is serious about 'being' the church, it is my humble opinion that one should study to show thyself approved not forsaking the doctrine of God for the teachings of man.

Should we have a 'theological forum' at the next conference? Should we strive for institutional teaching/training amongst the 'house church'? Not bad ideas. But let us strive to encourage that ALL that is taught lines up with the only true word, that written by Jesus himself.

Blessings to all who read.
I look forward to feedback.
B

Permalink Reply by Keith on January 29, 2009 at 4:35pm

hi all, this thread is real interesting. I can't think how I never got here before.

I have taught in Bible schools, seminaries and universities, and I think that they have a vital part to play in higher religious education. But are they the Bible way? I believe that they are the result of two millennia of Greek thinking imposed upon the Church. The model we are given by Jesus and the apostles, is that of making disciples. Jesus himself commanded us to go and make disciples. Even though Paul was teaching in the School of Tyranus, he still continued to make disciples. Why do we not use that method today? Mainly because our whole social structure is geared towards the Greek ideal. For many years I have sought to make disciples at an ordinary level. I have been very successful, and many, many of those have gone on to plant house churches and even whole networks. However, I continually find people who are seeking more and deeper educational and relational walk, and yet, they asked me if I come and spend time with you, what sort of degree will that earn me? Rather than the education. They are looking for a piece of paper. The truth is, in our society, we need the piece of paper, the recognition to gain validation in the world. But my question is do we need validation in the world?

Permalink Reply by federico enoch rull on April 8, 2009 at 12:32am

what about this website, they share about house church and simple church? can you check it out please...

www.HeavenReigns.com
allathisfeet.com

Permalink Reply by Bethel Watt on April 8, 2009 at 3:52pm

Hello Federico,
I took a look at the website and there seems to be quite a bit of information offered free for the asking. I did not dig into the information so I don't have a comment regarding that - as for the website itself - it's very nice, well done and organized, but there is no interaction with other people, it is simply taking what is offered with no opportunity to ask questions in a forum mode, make statements or interact with anyone.
I enjoy this site as there is much information available, but more than that, there is community and relationships and the ability to ask questions and get a wide array of answers and even more than that - to ask questions regarding the answer if it is not satisfactory or doesn't quite get to the source, not just a single answer from one who says I know all.
Thanks for asking our opinion - Have a great day.